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 Galas wrote:

"Adding women to a all male army is equivalent to making everyone in the galaxy a squig/having loyalist using demon possessed vehicles"

Everyone in the 41st millennium has been replaced by squigs without their knowledge. The only trace of the great squigification is that squig biology couldn't quite perfectly replicate the human form - the heads and hands were a litttle too big, torsos a little too round, legs too thick and arms too short.

luckily ork squigologists have been perfecting 'umie squigs over the years to combat this and they're steadily getting better, but those ding dang eldasquigs are just so hard to get right, so they make up some bs about them wearing cone hats to disguise the big giant squig heads.

Tiberias wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Recently 40k very much has good guys and bad guys.
Girlyman is definitely marketed as the good guy, Ultramarines vs Deathguard or whatever is definitely marketed as good vs evil.

Although that's kinda besides the point. My comment was more in regards to the world in general. Evil faceless mooks slaughtered by the dozens in Hollywood movies are always male. But no one minds that, we just need female leads that beat everyone else up.

The point about Guilliman is fair of course, but I would argue that when you think about it, there is still at least a bit of nuance there. Guilliman might be a good guy compared to the current imperium because he is a relic of a bygone age, but he is still a genocidal warlord. There is really no denying that fact.
This now is just my personal opinion, but I think Guilliman serves as a nice contrast to illustrate how stupid and evil the imperium really is. When even said genocidal warlod from the crusade era is horryfied by current practices in the imperium, it doesn't paint that faction in a good light imo. The only question is whether chaos is even more evil than the imperium and as I said both positions are tenable.....tyranids are objectively worse though, being eaten alive by disgusting gribblies can't be nice.

I do think though that his introduction and indeed generally the idea of having a continuing narrative in the present rather than just a base setting has tended to cast the Imperium in a better like than previously. I mean back in the 90's I always felt that the Eldar were clearly as close to "good" as you could get in 40K and they did include female units from an early point, the imperium being sexist by comparison didnt really make the setting sexist but was more a reflection of its dystopian feudal nature.

You could argue as well I spose that really a lot of the reason why SM as so popular is people like to play elite "best of the best" armies, not everyone of course but it has I think always been a strong attraction and you could argue the Sisters of Battle don't really have that being more an equivlent to Imperial guard. There does seem room for an "elite enhanced female army" in the lore to me as you already have Callidus Assassins being specifically female as this has advantages. So manybe more of an "Assasin army" based on enhanced women(minus the fan art "sexy killer" image), faster, high skill levels, infiltration abilities but not quite as tough as SM?

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
There's no guarantee nor evidence to show that doing this would attract women to the hobby. It's almost as if there's other factors at play that's being a barrier to entry.
Price comes to mind.
If they don't want to collect marines because of the lack of FSM, is that truly a bad thing? Don't we want other factions to have more players, instead of marines all of the time?
If none of the factions, even those that overtly have women in them, are attractive to prospective women hobbyists, what makes you think FSM would suddenly make them interested? It doesn't make sense to me that a woman, after perusing the hobby's catalogue, would suddenly change her mind because of a head swap.

I'm referring to 'the models', as per the title of the thread, not new members in 'the community', when I said 'no girls allowed'.its funny though that you think I want it in order to get more females through the door, I'll put it down to Internet not conveying meaning very well* - if it happens great, and it's welcome, but I also want it as i think there's great scope for cool models and projects. And frankly, other people want it a lot more than me. Frankly, let them have it. Them having theirs is not costing me anything or coming at my expense. Its not a pie.

*I think greater cultural changes in terms of how we play our games and how the social.dynamics manifest are necessary for that, but this is ot. That said, if more girls were attracted to the hobby in thw first place and better representation made them stay...? Big if, but its a nice idea.

I'd love to have more focus on not-marines but I'm a pragmatic type and 'focus on, and sell marines' is what gw does. They're not going to not-sell marines so they can might-sell an expansion to what they consider a minor product line.

I tend to agree. This is a male dominated hobby. There's larger factors at play as to why this is, and im pretty sure most girls 'nope' out of thr hobby before they get to the part than marines are a boys only club.

Is it a bad thing? I dunno. When marines are thr face of the company and over half the releases and boxes on the shop walls, being told the faction that represents yourself or your 'fantasy in 40k is 'a bit on side' and not that well supported in comparison, its a bit of a kicker really. I mean, marines have this endless possibility in their scopr. They can be anything. Vampires, werewolves, commandos, Greeks, Romans, Mongols, ninjas, guys on fire, but not girls? It's a bit....arbitrary if you ask me. Representation is a good thing. If a 12 year old girl walks by thr shop and sees this bad ass female marine absolutely stomping stuff anf thinks 'yeah,this is cooler than hobbycraft', id be happy and would hope she joins with and stays in our community. A headswap might literally be all it takes.

As for me? Male. Heterosexual. And yet most of my friends are female. growing up, most of the people I've personally admired most have been female. Some of my favourite fictional/video game characters are female. There are some frankly awesome female characters and themes from fiction/myth/fantasy/history that I would love to work with and incorporate into a space marine project.

Sledgehammer wrote:[But it wasn't conceived today, and there are people invested in the universe with its setting, themes and characters. And no one said "no girls allowed in 40k". You're asking to undermine the basic idea of fraternal militant orders of crusading space knights. Kinda like how men should not be allowed into the sisters of battle.

Representation is important, but you can do that without depriving others of a fantasy or idea. There are plenty of avenues for new and expanded factions and characters. You just want this one hyper specific thing.

In fairness you're not wrong. You're not saying 'no girls are allowed in 40k' out loud, but the status quo isn't exactly helping or encouraging either. there's not many hooks or 'ins' bring presented.

Adding females won't make space wolves 'not space wolves' anymore. Plus, shield maidens and valkyries. I'm as invested in this universe themes and characters and stories as anyone else, for over half my life at this point and I'm quite OK with this idea. It's not holy dogma. There is no bitter angry god at the other end of it. I used to be more neutral on the topic, but a few folks showed me a different perspective on it. Change isn't an enemy. Aa the tau say, the one constant in the universe is change. The wise adapt. When it comes to things that would fundamentally change what 40k is, it's replacement of 'eternal war' with 'care bears', mutual understanding and 'friends forever, let's hug!' Girls being recruited to marine chapters, imo, doesn't come close to undermining the setting.

And in fairness, i'm not undermining the idea any more than gw has repeatedly done over the last 40 years. I'm asking to 'expand' on the idea of what space marines are, as gw themselves have done. Crusading space knights is just one interpretation of them. My Raptors laugh at the knight idea and my Minotaurs just want to punch the tin cans because they think knights are silly. this idea of marines as 'knights' has been steadily diluted since the 80s and that was a long time ago, and added to with other identities at the same time. Monk is another one. i actually quite like the Monastic traditions as a theme, and often defend it, and it is, in my mind, pretty cool, and also not incompatible with the idea of female marines. Monastic traditions are hugely varied after all. And mixed gender might be a bit of a modern take on a traditional idea, but is that a bad thing? Space Marines are not based on just one idea. I mean fair enough for dark angels or black templars to have strong knightly themes, but is it anywhere near as strong for space wolves, Raptors, white scars, salamanders, raven guard,iron hands etc?

Representation, as you say, is important. Marines are the flagship product. If anywhere makes sense, ita there. And I'm not depriving anyone of a fantasy, but with respect, that's not something I can say of the 'no fsm' side, even if, as is often the case, there is no malice in their position. If you want all-male marines based on crusading space knights, make them as such. No lore is holding you back and there is no one that will ridicule you or harass you over it. I just think it's nice to return the favour.

Rihgu wrote:

Tiberias wrote:

Rihgu wrote:

I feel like the people who argue for FSM are the same people that ruined Star Wars

Star Wars is ruined? Somebody should tell Disney, so that they can stop profiting off of the IP.

asking for female space marines is akin to asking why Ultramarines can't take Daemon Engines.

This is also a valid question, though. A group of Ultramarines can go renegade and have/meet a warpsmith and sorcerer who can craft Daemon Engines. They'd still use Ultramarines tactics/equipment (Codex: Space Marines) but have some Chaos stuff.
This is why Open Play is good, you can actually play the fluff they spent so much time building.

That's some mental gymnastics if I've ever seen some. Ultramarines going chaos wouldn't be Ultramarines anymore in the sense that they don't belong to the chapter any more that absolutely won't use demon engines.

Also the newest 3 star wars movies were absolutely horrendous and were poorly recieved by fans.

So they would instantly forget all of their training and throw away all of their weapons? Which Legion Tactics would they use? Iron Warriors? Black Legion? Where would they have learned these tactics? Do Ultramarines routinely train their Space Marines in enemy tactics (this might actually be the case, thinking about it, but I don't see why they'd suddenly start using said tactics)?

And people say the lore matters!

You can not be serious. As if chapter tactics was the main point of the original argument, fething ridiculous. The main point was that GW suddenly introducing Ultramarines as a loyalist chapter that uses demon engines would be beyond stupid.

Tiberias wrote:

Rihgu wrote:

Tiberias wrote:

Rihgu wrote:

I feel like the people who argue for FSM are the same people that ruined Star Wars

Star Wars is ruined? Somebody should tell Disney, so that they can stop profiting off of the IP.

asking for female space marines is akin to asking why Ultramarines can't take Daemon Engines.

This is also a valid question, though. A group of Ultramarines can go renegade and have/meet a warpsmith and sorcerer who can craft Daemon Engines. They'd still use Ultramarines tactics/equipment (Codex: Space Marines) but have some Chaos stuff.
This is why Open Play is good, you can actually play the fluff they spent so much time building.

That's some mental gymnastics if I've ever seen some. Ultramarines going chaos wouldn't be Ultramarines anymore in the sense that they don't belong to the chapter any more that absolutely won't use demon engines.

Also the newest 3 star wars movies were absolutely horrendous and were poorly recieved by fans.

So they would instantly forget all of their training and throw away all of their weapons? Which Legion Tactics would they use? Iron Warriors? Black Legion? Where would they have learned these tactics? Do Ultramarines routinely train their Space Marines in enemy tactics (this might actually be the case, thinking about it, but I don't see why they'd suddenly start using said tactics)?

And people say the lore matters!

You can not be serious. As if chapter tactics was the main point of the original argument, fething ridiculous. The main point was that GW suddenly introducing Ultramarines as a loyalist chapter that uses demon engines would be beyond stupid.

Oh, I didn't get that out of the initial statement. I thought it was just "why can't I build an Ultramarines force with daemon engines?". Apologies, then.

Deadnight wrote:

Representation is a good thing. If a 12 year old girl walks by thr shop and sees this bad ass female marine absolutely stomping stuff anf thinks 'yeah,this is cooler than hobbycraft', id be happy and would hope she joins with and stays in our community. A headswap might literally be all it takes.

We already have that though, they are called Sisters of Battle. Headswaps are unnecessary in that respect.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Deadnight wrote:

Representation is a good thing. If a 12 year old girl walks by thr shop and sees this bad ass female marine absolutely stomping stuff anf thinks 'yeah,this is cooler than hobbycraft', id be happy and would hope she joins with and stays in our community. A headswap might literally be all it takes.

We already have that though, they are called Sisters of Battle. Headswaps are unnecessary in that respect.

When space marines can be *anything* you can envision, and sisters of battle are kind of typecast in a single note as religious fanatics with a stromg Church theme, a far more limited range and an ugly haircut, I will politely disagree.

Sisters are great, but I think they're more of an 'acquired taste' than the blank slate that is space marines.

When I say headswap I'd like a bit more variety - some cyberpunk and modern cuts would be cool.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Deadnight wrote:

Representation is a good thing. If a 12 year old girl walks by thr shop and sees this bad ass female marine absolutely stomping stuff anf thinks 'yeah,this is cooler than hobbycraft', id be happy and would hope she joins with and stays in our community. A headswap might literally be all it takes.

We already have that though, they are called Sisters of Battle. Headswaps are unnecessary in that respect.

Sisters of battle are probably one of the most limited armies in the game as far as creativity goes. They're the fanatical arm of the church, that's it. Marines get to be vampires, furries, Soldier 76 from Overwatch or yellow, Sisters get to be angry nuns or angry nuns in red instead of black. Marines answer to Emperor and (tentatively) the High Lords, SoB are just armed housemaids of whatever screamy old dude is the local under-pope.

Deadnight wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Deadnight wrote:

Representation is a good thing. If a 12 year old girl walks by thr shop and sees this bad ass female marine absolutely stomping stuff anf thinks 'yeah,this is cooler than hobbycraft', id be happy and would hope she joins with and stays in our community. A headswap might literally be all it takes.

We already have that though, they are called Sisters of Battle. Headswaps are unnecessary in that respect.

When space marines can be *anything* you can envision, and sisters of battle are kind of typecast in a single note as religious fanatics with a stromg Church theme, a far more limited range and an ugly haircut, I will politely disagree.

Sisters are great, but I think they're more of an 'acquired taste' than the blank slate that is space marines.

When I say headswap I'd like a bit more variety - some cyberpunk and modern cuts would be cool.

You pretty much described a Sister of Battle in your 12 year old girl example though. She isn't going to know the intricacies between a Space Marine and a Sister, she'll just see a powered armor individual kicking arse. In that respect, a Sister of Battle would be sufficient, and would arguably be more effective than a headswap as a Sister of Battle is clearly a woman.
And that's assuming that she's not drawn in by Eldar, who have a more elegant aesthetic and also their fair share of female representation.
I'm sorry, I just don't follow this marine centric view where Marines are the only pull to the hobby. If that were the case no one would bother collecting any other faction.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Cronch wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Deadnight wrote:

Representation is a good thing. If a 12 year old girl walks by thr shop and sees this bad ass female marine absolutely stomping stuff anf thinks 'yeah,this is cooler than hobbycraft', id be happy and would hope she joins with and stays in our community. A headswap might literally be all it takes.

We already have that though, they are called Sisters of Battle. Headswaps are unnecessary in that respect.

Sisters of battle are probably one of the most limited armies in the game as far as creativity goes. They're the fanatical arm of the church, that's it. Marines get to be vampires, furries, Soldier 76 from Overwatch or yellow, Sisters get to be angry nuns or angry nuns in red instead of black. Marines answer to Emperor and (tentatively) the High Lords, SoB are just armed housemaids of whatever screamy old dude is the local under-pope.

Marines are a bunch of angry screaming bald men who have an unhealthy obsession with a corpse. See, I can be unfairly reductionist too.
It's a creative hobby and the Sisters have thousands of Orders across the galaxy. GW even made a community article talking about making your own Order.
You bring up Vampire Marines and Viking Marines, but that's limited to a couple of chapters. If you want those you have to play those chapters. How is that blank slate? There is nothing in the core Space Marine codex that allows you make Vampire Marines, you need Blood Angels. That's not a blank slate, that's a predefined template that allows slight variation.

I don't know if I would consider Space Marines to be a blank slate. They're still heavy with the religious fanatic tones, purge the xenos and heretics rah rah, big armor super soldier. The themes between the two are different, but they're still both the military arms of a terrible, rotting corpse of a backwards facist empire.

Maybe Space Marines are seen as a blank slate by some because, for those of us who have been in the hobby for so long are so damn used to seeing them everywhere. And the relative popularity of 40k as a general idea, with Marines as a poster boy, means that their 'style' can be considered mainstream. But their niche is well, pretty niche.

Heavily indoctrinated super soldiers with religious themes and practices, ancient knighthood dashed in, serving a bloody and brutal regime. That hardly screams blank slate to me.

I shouldn't be surprised that people took the bait and latched onto the first sentence of my post and ignored the other three paragraphs.

Essentially this boils down to two camps.

The first is that lore and setting are important and having some form of structure to the background the game takes place in is important.

Or the lore and setting matter only so far as selling models.

There is no good reason or bad reason to add female space marines but at the end of the day a large part of the reason I like the setting is the dystopian future setting where humanity regressed in many ways back to how we once were because threats larger than the universe itself cause a lot of people to do away with civility in order to meet their goals. A lot like this thread actually.

Removed - WTF

Skchsan, you’re wrong. You’re just flat out wrong. People who want women Marines aren’t doing it because we want porn-there’s a whole Internet of that, if that’s what we wanted.

We legitimately think it would help make the game more welcoming, and would be cool modding opportunities, and can easily fit in the lore. If you want to address the arguments, address them on their merits, not with ad hominem.

 skchsan wrote:
Removed - WTF

This is not only wrong, it's completely ludicrous. GW is never going to sell pinup models of female space marines even if they made female space marines, so even on that basis your argument doesn't hold up as they'll never be able to play those 3rd party models at GW tourneys anyways.
2%, or 5 people, have voted for "obvious feminine bodies". Even if we want to accredit those 5 people as being perverts who want their spank material on the table (which I don't think they are, but who knows, post if that's true!), that's a minority within a minority.

I explicitly do not want boobs or ass on my toy soldiers. I don't want any of those 3rd party pin up dolls. I don't even want to own a space marine model with a female headswap. I want other people to have the option to do it without getting dogpiled for breaking canon for whatever that is worth.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


You pretty much described a Sister of Battle in your 12 year old girl example though. She isn't going to know the intricacies between a Space Marine and a Sister, she'll just see a powered armor individual kicking arse. In that respect, a Sister of Battle would be sufficient, and would arguably be more effective than a headswap as a Sister of Battle is clearly a woman.
[

Also described a marine.

And when she reads the lore or gets more than a 30 second description from the staff, what happens?

I just think it's a bit dismissive and maybe even a bit condescending (though I strongly doubt this was your intent; I'm not ascribing any malice to your view ) to shrug it off as 'she doesn't know enough so this will do for her'.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

And that's assuming that she's not drawn in by Eldar, who have a more elegant aesthetic and also their fair share of female representation.
I'm sorry, I just don't follow this marine centric view where Marines are the only pull to the hobby. If that were the case no one would bother collecting any other faction.
[

Yoyre right - dark eldar have a recent drop and pretty cool models and nice representation. Craftworld eldar though? Might be just me, but they seriously need an overhaul.

Regardless though, gw pushes marines as the first army and the flagship of the whole company. Lions share of models, rules and exposure. Fair enough if you don't follow the marine centric view - my first real foray likewise was non marine - tau in my case. But gw very much does. They sell marines first, then the rest of the hobby. And it's for a lot of very marketable reasons.

Representation means a lot less when you can't see it, or where the variety is limited in scope or pigeonholed in theme.

Deadnight wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


You pretty much described a Sister of Battle in your 12 year old girl example though. She isn't going to know the intricacies between a Space Marine and a Sister, she'll just see a powered armor individual kicking arse. In that respect, a Sister of Battle would be sufficient, and would arguably be more effective than a headswap as a Sister of Battle is clearly a woman.
[

And when she reads the lore or gets more than a 30 second description from the staff?

Explain why you think the Sisters of Battle fluff is a turn off and the Marine fluff wouldn't be to a 12 year old girl? Because to a newcomer, especially to a child, they are going to sound effectively the same.
Put yourself in the shoes of someone who knows nothing about the hobby, and especially in those of a child. The first thing you're going to notice isn't the fluff.
If anything is going to be a turnoff, it will be the girl's parents looking at the price of a set, think about the price of a video game, and then lead the child to...well, Steam I guess, because game stores are apparently dead now.

Also, the remedy to GW pushing marines isn't to push marines harder but with a different face, but show off other factions. Which is what they have been doing recently, thankfully.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Skchsan, you’re wrong. You’re just flat out wrong. People who want women Marines aren’t doing it because we want porn-there’s a whole Internet of that, if that’s what we wanted.

We legitimately think it would help make the game more welcoming, and would be cool modding opportunities, and can easily fit in the lore. If you want to address the arguments, address them on their merits, not with ad hominem.

And as male members of this hobby community, instead of assuming what women feel towards the hobby & its community, why don't you go out and actually ask. Look for actual female representation as a hobbyist's side, and ask them how they feel.

This post is just another case of "men know best", which is a farcry from making the game "more welcoming".

Let me summarize every single thread about this topic ever.

Side 1: BuT mY rEpReSeNtAtIoN!

Side 2: History of the game, economics, actual real world scenarios.

Never let the Cult members of the Woke Mob in, they will ruin everything fun.

 skchsan wrote:
Removed - WTF

Show me where the anime doll touched you.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:It's as if people who really like the setting as is don't like it when retcons happen.

I'm not hearing any complaints about the new Sisters units, despite them not having existed before?

You saw it happen with the Necrons and you saw it happen with Warhammer Fantasy. They spent time in money on a hobby they love, of course they are going to have a negative reaction when something drastic happens; to them its becoming less of what they invested it.

But why is including women such a dealbreaker?

It's like that old thought experiment, the Ship of Theseus; if you keep changing parts of the ship, are you left with the same ship? Same idea with the setting, if you keep changing parts of it, are you left with the same setting? A lot of people don't think so.

But when the part is literally just "women Space Marines" is that the whole mast being removed, or just a nail?

Just because GW could change the fluff, doesn't necessarily mean they should. Would you be fine with the the fluff if, after a rigorous night of peyote abuse, they decided to make every faction a squig? That would cause quite a stir, wouldn't it?

This just in, real life human women are comparable to squigs.

And this is coming from someone who really doesn't like Marines getting the lions shares of releases, and would rather see them update Imperial Guard and Eldar.

Oh, I agree - and that's why I'd rather just have the headswaps, because that'll be much easier than a whole new range.

Though technically a Chapter Serf update wouldn't be "Marine" update, but that's splitting hairs.

It absolutely would be a Marine update. Just because they're not in power armour, they'd be part of the Chapter, and therefore, a Marines update.

Sledgehammer wrote:And no one said "no girls allowed in 40k".

Nah, just "no girls allowed in my flagship faction that makes up most of the factions in the game".

You're asking to undermine the basic idea of fraternal militant orders of crusading space knights.

But not all Space Marines follow the basic idea of fraternal militant orders of crusading space knights, for a start.

Representation is important, but you can do that without depriving others of a fantasy or idea.

The only one depriving people of their fantasy or idea is *you*.

If *you* want the fantasy of all-male fraternal militant warrior orders, you go make your own army only include men! You have have that fantasy! But why can't I have my army of women Astartes?

There are plenty of avenues for new and expanded factions and characters. You just want this one hyper specific thing.

Again, you say "hyper specific" like I'm not just asking for women.

If I was asking for something like "I demand all Space Marines to be called Tim, and have brown hair and a face tattoo and they can only turn right on the battlefield!", that would be hyper specific. But wanting women Space Marines? How is that "hyper specific"?

Arbiter_Shade wrote:I feel like the people who argue for FSM are the same people that ruined Star Wars.

You know that Star Wars is still one of the largest IPs out there, right?

What is not fine is to change a fundamental aspect of a setting that is older than most of the people wanting to change it just because of their current social sensibilities.

Why is Space Marines not having women fundamental to the setting? It doesn't affect my genestealers at all.

The Imperium of Man has been represented as a villain in the setting since the beginning to anyone that has payed even remote attention to it. It is a theocratic oppressive system that primarily focus on an unending war machine with little use for anything other than efficiency. Humanity are NOT the "good guys" nor is any other faction in the game because a rather fundamental aspect of the lore is that there are no winners in war. The idea that a oppressive regime would have role definition based on sex is not exactly a revelatory idea.

Being villainous doesn't mean they're sexist. And, evidently, they're not institutionally sexist. Many of the High Lords are women, and the Guardsmen are made up of a mixed gender force.

If your ultimate desire is to completely rewrite the fundamentals of a setting then why on earth don't you just create another setting?

Again, why is Space Marines not having women fundamental, if it even is? I fail to see how it impacts anything beyond your choice of head, let alone any other faction.

The lore is shallow and kind of a joke but at least it doesn't try to change what a Space Marine is as their base level.

Evidently, we don't agree on what that is then.

To answer the question of posed at the beginning of the thread, just put more resources into Sisters of Battle. Sisters of Battle are the female equivalent of Space Marines as far as game play goes

This isn't about gameplay, and Sisters being compared to Space Marines does both Space Marines and Sisters a massive disservice to one another.

and asking for female space marines is akin to asking why Ultramarines can't take Daemon Engines.

Including real human women is equivalent to a made up faction not being able to take make up things belong to a different made up faction?

I think you're confused on just how real women are?

Tiberias wrote:That's some mental gymnastics if I've ever seen some. Ultramarines going chaos wouldn't be Ultramarines anymore in the sense that they don't belong to the chapter any more that absolutely won't use demon engines.

So what are they if not ex-Ultramarines?
Also, speaking of "Ultramarines would never use daemon engines!", you might want to re-read the Uriel Ventris novels. You know, that canon you're talking about.

Also the newest 3 star wars movies were absolutely horrendous and were poorly recieved by fans.

"Fans"? They share a brain cell now?

Galas wrote:I'll also say that more than one woman would do a little more than raising an eyebrown with the arguments some people are using in this debate.


"Adding women to a all male army is equivalent to making everyone in the galaxy a squig/having loyalist using demon possessed vehicles"

Yeah - there's a great deal of pretty bizarre comparisons to women here.

Deadnight wrote:Crusading space knights is just one interpretation of them. My Raptors laugh at the knight idea and my Minotaurs just want to punch the tin cans because they think knights are silly. this idea of marines as 'knights' has been steadily diluted since the 80s and that was a long time ago, and added to with other identities at the same time. Monk is another one. i actually quite like the Monastic traditions as a theme, and often defend it, and it is, in my mind, pretty cool, and also not incompatible with the idea of female marines. Monastic traditions are hugely varied after all. And mixed gender might be a bit of a modern take on a traditional idea, but is that a bad thing? Space Marines are not based on just one idea. I mean fair enough for dark angels or black templars to have strong knightly themes, but is it anywhere near as strong for space wolves, Raptors, white scars, salamanders, raven guard,iron hands etc?

Representation, as you say, is important. Marines are the flagship product. If anywhere makes sense, ita there. And I'm not depriving anyone of a fantasy, but with respect, that's not something I can say of the 'no fsm' side, even if, as is often the case, there is no malice in their position. If you want all-male marines based on crusading space knights, make them as such. No lore is holding you back and there is no one that will ridicule you or harass you over it. I just think it's nice to return the favour.

I'd have loved to quote this whole thing and just repeat it, but I'll just echo this section back, all of it.

This. ^^^^

skchsan wrote:Stop pretending that you, the advocates, are pushing for some sort of social equality by being inclusive, making the products more suitable for female audiences, etc through introduction of FSM.

All you want is boobs and ass on your toy soldiers. You know there are 3rd party miniature producers that make pin up dolls, but you're not allowed to show them off at GW sanctioned tourneys because [REASONS]. Thus, you want GW to release the female versions of the models so you can 'legally' own pin up models that you can play with.

... yup, sure. That's why I voted for "headswap". That's why I collect Space Marines, so I can fetishise them.

Also, while I'm at it, can I have Space Marines be all male so that I can only have them so I can have a massive pendulous penis on my Space Marines? I want abs and sweaty testes, and a nice swell cleft in their chins. After all, I'm pansexual, so it only makes sense that if I'm only in this for sexy women Astartes, I get my fair share of hot dude action.

And I definitely want to be able to rub them in everyone's face, I'm just that kind of exhibitionist, I hate the idea of having to hide my oiled, 'Ardcoated, bare chested man marines, so I 'm just begging for GW to canonise my sexy sexy Space Marines.

For legal reasons, that is a joke. Well, except about my sexuality. That part is real. Which is why this whole thing is incredibly bizarre from skchsan - if I was such a pervert, wouldn't I also want to make my men hyper-sexualised too? Should we just make all Space Marines sexless?

SemperMortis wrote:Let me summarize every single thread about this topic ever.

Side 1: BuT mY looOoOoOoORe!

Side 2: History of the game, economics, actual real world scenarios, empathy, artistic factional analysis, critical thinking skills, diligently unpicked arguments.

Let me rephrase that.

Never let the Cult members of the Woke Mob in, they will ruin everything fun.

Remind me, what's fun about making sure that women can't be Space Marines? I think I missed the memo.

This thread has become a duplicate of another, similar one so I am locking this one and redirecting traffic to the other:

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/799656.page