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Made in de
Terrifying Doombull






Nuremberg

It was really badly written is the problem. I keep seeing this word 'woke' in the thread and people complaining about it. Can some of the people using it define it? I see some people saying it means being 'politically correct' which is a loaded term for criticising attempts to be respectful of others. Is woke different to how political correctness is used? If so how and if not why use the term? If we're going to be using the term I'd like to know what people mean by it.

   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 Da Boss wrote:
It was really badly written is the problem. I keep seeing this word 'woke' in the thread and people complaining about it. Can some of the people using it define it? I see some people saying it means being 'politically correct' which is a loaded term for criticising attempts to be respectful of others. Is woke different to how political correctness is used? If so how and if not why use the term? If we're going to be using the term I'd like to know what people mean by it.


It’s pretty much ‘political correctness’ but more so, with additional associations with virtue signalling and cancel culture. I believe the term comes from having ‘woken up’ to the injustice in society or something like that.

Like political correctness back in the day on the one side you do have a minority of people reaching some pretty silly positions in its name; on the other people using the term to denigrate anyone who they disagree with or who disagree with them; and in the middle you have everyone else just trying to get on with things while being respectful to others.
   
Made in de
Terrifying Doombull






Nuremberg

Political correctness has always been a cynical term used to denigrate attempts to be respectful though. So woke is the same thing except people are upset about people trying to be respectful about a wider range of things? And cancel culture, I hear a lot about that but you don't see much specific evidence of it really. As to virtue signalling, not sure you can lay that on any particular group, it seems to be a pretty widespread phenomenon. But thanks for the clarification. Seems a ludicrous thing to be worried about for GW then as the setting is very far removed from any of those concerns. It hardly seems relevant to the topics that get brought up like having more female representation or a greater diversity in paint jobs for human skin colour all of that, pretty far away from political correctness or cancel culture it seems to me. So people must be using the term incorrectly.

   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




Tallarook, Victoria, Australia

 Da Boss wrote:
Political correctness has always been a cynical term used to denigrate attempts to be respectful though. So woke is the same thing except people are upset about people trying to be respectful about a wider range of things? And cancel culture, I hear a lot about that but you don't see much specific evidence of it really. As to virtue signalling, not sure you can lay that on any particular group, it seems to be a pretty widespread phenomenon. But thanks for the clarification. Seems a ludicrous thing to be worried about for GW then as the setting is very far removed from any of those concerns. It hardly seems relevant to the topics that get brought up like having more female representation or a greater diversity in paint jobs for human skin colour all of that, pretty far away from political correctness or cancel culture it seems to me. So people must be using the term incorrectly.


GW doesn't give to women's charities, doesn't do research into hobby gender participation and doesn't really run any initiatives to involve females in the hobby, at least none that I have ever been aware of but they put some extra female characters in your settings and whoopdie doo daaa It's the woke virtue signal, "they're better now".

Well they might be better in meaningless ways, but the real metrics have not changed. The W-cult is not concerned with the tangible, it is concerned with its own brand of anti-intellectualism.

Instead of this "YOU WILL NOT BE MISSED" statement, how about your company do something to prove warhammer is for everyone?

Put up or shut up.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/30 12:23:37


Living in a world of make believe
I can hide behind what's real 
   
Made in de
Terrifying Doombull






Nuremberg

Dunno why making more female models is related to any of that stuff or makes you so angry.

   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




How are female model something new or strange in w40k. Weren't SoB from like 2ed, that is like almost 3 times my age. If female models are that old, then maybe people should have gotten used to them. Unless GW does something strange like female marines or male SoB, I don't see how it could be a problem.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




Tallarook, Victoria, Australia

 Da Boss wrote:
Dunno why making more female models is related to any of that stuff or makes you so angry.


I am not angry, I'm referencing previous discussion that occurred in the thread where I \it was said that GW was now "better to females".

I'm just not seeing how that amounts to anything tangible in any sense of the word.
Throwing in characters to please the W-cult doesn't achieve as much as they believe it does.

If anything it has led to an anti intellectual belligerence statement from the company with really nothing to back up all that virtue signalling.

Company figures it can please the W-mobcult with posturing alone.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/30 12:54:54


Living in a world of make believe
I can hide behind what's real 
   
Made in de
Terrifying Doombull






Nuremberg

Not even sure how female marines would be a problem if we're talking age of model since there were female marines in rogue trader.

Who are the 'w mob cult' and what do they believe in your view?

Also their statement was about racist bigots and homophobes as far as I can tell. But if you know more I would be interested to hear it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/30 12:35:40


   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




Tallarook, Victoria, Australia

Karol wrote:
How are female model something new or strange in w40k. Weren't SoB from like 2ed, that is like almost 3 times my age. If female models are that old, then maybe people should have gotten used to them. Unless GW does something strange like female marines or male SoB, I don't see how it could be a problem.


Because it was said that SOB's were a fetishised faction solely primarily intended for the males of the hobby....

Same poster said GW was better to females now. Well those SOB's still have nipple fleur de lis and nipple skulls.... tight fitting armour and every other thing that post pointed out was an issue, where's the change in the models?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/30 12:38:28


Living in a world of make believe
I can hide behind what's real 
   
Made in de
Terrifying Doombull






Nuremberg

GW has more female representation in Age of Sigmar generally.

   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

 Da Boss wrote:
Not even sure how female marines would be a problem if we're talking age of model since there were female marines in rogue trader.

Were they marines, or were they women wearing power armor?

What I have
~4100
~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut





I am pretty fed up with some people complaining about GW's SoB faction.
They claim all the time in a whiny voice that those poor models are sexualized to satisfy a male hunger for eye candy. Problem is that these white knights don't even understand what eye candy is.

When men want to see beautiful women they buy a men's magazine like Playboy or Google such pics online. They don't look for it by buying plastic miniatures.

Another thing which these people address is the artwork of the SoB. White knights think women are exploited when the artist gives them high-heeled combat boots. Short answer to that misconception is: No, this is not exploitation.

If you really want to see action & sex-appeal combined then you need to LEAVE the 40K universe and look for pin-up art. Off the top of my head the Heavy Metal magazine comes to mind. There you can see tough girls posing in skimpy outfits. There is absolutely NOTHING comparable to such pin-up art in 40K.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/30 15:55:09


 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




 GoldenHorde wrote:


Because it was said that SOB's were a fetishised faction solely primarily intended for the males of the hobby....

Same poster said GW was better to females now. Well those SOB's still have nipple fleur de lis and nipple skulls.... tight fitting armour and every other thing that post pointed out was an issue, where's the change in the models?


I think that there maybe a big desparancy between what GW says and what it does. Writing words or female characters is easy, specially when you write them as men with boobs. Making the hobby interesting to the large female audiance goes well beyond my understanding of life and how things work. What I do know is that the hobby is still mostly dudes playing games or painting models. Also from the little interactions I do have with female students, I don't think any of them, at least in gymnastics, long jump, wrestling etc, have problems with wearing tight stuff or looking good. Or is this one of those we want fat SoBs things?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Da Boss wrote:
Not even sure how female marines would be a problem if we're talking age of model since there were female marines in rogue trader.

Who are the 'w mob cult' and what do they believe in your view?

Also their statement was about racist bigots and homophobes as far as I can tell. But if you know more I would be interested to hear it.


But isn't that just an example of corpo talk? They says all the proper things, but when one the writers says on twitter that he is trying to write marines as less manly he gets layed off. That is like our trainers and school teachers saying that doping is wrong, and then you have to buy supplements from their friends or you don't get a passing grade.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/30 14:23:24


If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in us
Tunneling Trygon




Mexico

Regarding the SoB, I would say it depends: for example the older Repentia were very sexualized, which is partly why they got newer models that toned that down. And any model that has high heels just looks stupid.

But the real issue isn't SoB; but the lack of female models outside of SoB. E.g in the lore there are all female regiments of IG, good luck building that on the tabletop.


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/30 14:28:18


 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




But isn't this just part of w40k style. If anything comparing to art I have seen in older inquisition and GK codex, the models today, specially the primaris are very sanitised.

Plus if heels are stupid, then all the flame and smoke, birds etc effects are even more. They often make good looking models look worse just by adding them.

I mean how are SoB suppose to look, like downscaled intercessors with different shoulder pads?

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in us
Tunneling Trygon




Mexico

I do not really have an issue with the current modern SoB models. I can live with boob plates (and modern SoB do not have heels) because while it is gendered armor, it makes sense for an army that is built around gender (to get around the wording of the Decree Passive).

What I have an issue is the idea that SoB alone are enough for female representation, when in the lore most factions have mixed gender forces.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/30 14:40:36


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





The tone should always be happy-go-lucky and you can't beat the Tyranids and Harlequins for their happy-go-luckiness.

Without them the game...would be lost.

Casual gaming, mostly solo-coop these days.

 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 Tyran wrote:
Regarding the SoB, I would say it depends: for example the older Repentia were very sexualized, which is partly why they got newer models that toned that down. And any model that has high heels just looks stupid.
You wot m8?


Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in us
Tunneling Trygon




Mexico

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
You wot m8?

I was referring more to the models.

EDIT: Modern Repentia have shorts and tanktops, while the older ones had... not sure what that clothing is called, only that it works on comic magic to not fall off while showing all the cleavage.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/30 14:52:54


 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




 Tyran wrote:
I do not really have an issue with the current modern SoB models. I can live with boob plates (and modern SoB do not have heels) because while it is gendered armor, it makes sense for an army that is built around gender (to get around the wording of the Decree Passive).

What I have an issue is the idea that SoB alone are enough for female representation, when in the lore most factions have mixed gender forces.



But there are female models for all eldar, IG. GW only knows how or if there are any genders for necrons. And orks have either no genders or if they are true fungi they have like 2000+ of them. Only marines and custodes are not female, how much more females does there have to be in w40k? Only other organisation that is majority female, is sisters of silance, but they are more of a variation on the SoB theme then a stand alone thing. GW would have to invent whole new female races to get more representation. Am not sure there is enough creative idea to make an army like that.


Ah and tau have females too.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Tyran wrote:
Regarding the SoB, I would say it depends: for example the older Repentia were very sexualized, which is partly why they got newer models that toned that down. And any model that has high heels just looks stupid.
You wot m8?


That's BDSM with purity seals added. I don't have problem with this, but let's not pretend that it's not sexualised.

   
Made in us
Tunneling Trygon




Mexico

Karol wrote:

But there are female models for all eldar, IG. GW only knows how or if there are any genders for necrons.
We know Necrons have genders, it has come up a few times in their novels.


And orks have either no genders or if they are true fungi they have like 2000+ of them. Only marines and custodes are not female,
There is actually no lore statement that there are no female Custodes.

how much more females does there have to be in w40k? Only other organisation that is majority female, is sisters of silance, but they are more of a variation on the SoB theme then a stand alone thing. GW would have to invent whole new female races to get more representation. Am not sure there is enough creative idea to make an army like that.

GW wasn't particular creative when it come to Space Marines flavors: space vikings, space vampires, space Romans, etc.
Do that but with female variants.

And yes, GW wrote themselves into a corner with Space Marines.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/30 15:39:37


 
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

 Crimson wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Tyran wrote:
Regarding the SoB, I would say it depends: for example the older Repentia were very sexualized, which is partly why they got newer models that toned that down. And any model that has high heels just looks stupid.
You wot m8?


That's BDSM with purity seals added. I don't have problem with this, but let's not pretend that it's not sexualised.

To people who are into BDSM, maybe.
Fetishes are weird, I would not use those as a standard.

What I have
~4100
~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Crimson wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Tyran wrote:
Regarding the SoB, I would say it depends: for example the older Repentia were very sexualized, which is partly why they got newer models that toned that down. And any model that has high heels just looks stupid.
You wot m8?


That's BDSM with purity seals added. I don't have problem with this, but let's not pretend that it's not sexualised.


That pic was inspired from the Hellraiser movie franchise. It's body horror with all the mutilation going on. The artist tried very hard to sell the Imperium's point of view concerning dignity and the worth of a human life. There is ZERO sexuality present in the picture. Even worse is that the victims are shown off and herded towards enemy lines wearing only rags. This unit is the SoB's version of the Dirty Dozen sent on a suicide mission.

If a BDSM enthusiast would be treated like this and survived the ordeal by his domina, he would sue her immediately.
   
Made in ca
Dour Wolf Priest with Iron Wolf Amulet






Canada

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Tyran wrote:
Regarding the SoB, I would say it depends: for example the older Repentia were very sexualized, which is partly why they got newer models that toned that down. And any model that has high heels just looks stupid.
You wot m8?


That's BDSM with purity seals added. I don't have problem with this, but let's not pretend that it's not sexualised.

To people who are into BDSM, maybe.
Fetishes are weird, I would not use those as a standard.

Speak for yourself. Fetishes are very much a part of sexualization and even open it up to new avenues (eg, Tarantino's foot shots, the Lake Placid movies advertising themselves as vore porn, etc).

   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Tyran wrote:
Regarding the SoB, I would say it depends: for example the older Repentia were very sexualized, which is partly why they got newer models that toned that down. And any model that has high heels just looks stupid.
You wot m8?


That's BDSM with purity seals added. I don't have problem with this, but let's not pretend that it's not sexualised.

To people who are into BDSM, maybe.
Fetishes are weird, I would not use those as a standard.

Speak for yourself. Fetishes are very much a part of sexualization and even open it up to new avenues (eg, Tarantino's foot shots, the Lake Placid movies advertising themselves as vore porn, etc).

I really doubt GW was trying to cater to the BDSM market with Repentia though. I think they were going more for medieval acts of penitence taken to the extreme.
Now Diaz Daemonettes however...

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/30 16:16:27


What I have
~4100
~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in mx
Tunneling Trygon




Mexico

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

I really doubt GW was trying to cater to the BDSM market with Repentia though. I think they were going more for medieval acts of penitence taken to the extreme.

The art, sure. The models? not so sure about that.
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

I really doubt GW was trying to cater to the BDSM market with Repentia though.

Oh please. Almost naked ladies in gimp hoods being lead by a mistress with a whip. It's not even a little bit subtle.

   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

 Tyran wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

I really doubt GW was trying to cater to the BDSM market with Repentia though. I think they were going more for medieval acts of penitence taken to the extreme.

The art, sure. The models? not so sure about that.

Was that intentional, or was that due to technical limitations? There were plenty of rough looking metal models back then.
The dialogos (whatever that Sister model with the gaping mouth comes to mind).
I'm not sure if it's meant to be sexual, or if it's a bad sculpt that's trying to match the artwork.

What I have
~4100
~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

Speak for yourself. Fetishes are very much a part of sexualization and even open it up to new avenues (eg, Tarantino's foot shots, the Lake Placid movies advertising themselves as vore porn, etc).


But that is a slipper slope, there is a chance you could always find some minority of people that find something to be their fetish. If that ment it should somehow block a representation of it in art, because someone could find it sexual, then you may as well stop printing books. Because there is probably some wierdo somewhere who has a specific font fetish.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Tyran wrote:

We know Necrons have genders, it has come up a few times in their novels.

yes, but how many and how do they work. There is no way in hell that pre robot necron were just humans with, something odd like a wierd skin colour or bone crest on top of their head.

There is actually no lore statement that there are no female Custodes.

they are made to be peak of super human warrior efficiency. it is not achivable with a woman. Same way a dude will never see as many shades of colours as a woman.



GW wasn't particular creative when it come to Space Marines flavors: space vikings, space vampires, space Romans, etc.
Do that but with female variants.

And yes, GW wrote themselves into a corner with Space Marines.

okey, the thing is dudes like vikings, vampires, romans, knights etc. I have absolutly no idea what mass female buyers of GW would want. I have my doubts they would want vikings, but female or vampires, but female or knight but female. Because unlike SoB, that would be derivative.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/30 19:10:48


If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
 
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