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 Daedalus81 wrote:

Voss wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:


Feel free to elaborate where you consider my summaries wrong.

Well, you did leave out a lot of the blather about percentages and charts (that weren't actually helpful); and of course 'terrain is magic and will stop them from being a threat while leaving them in charge range of the entire table but too far away to benefit from mont'ka.'

Right. Right. Hey guys. Does anyone else remember when Eradicators were the most broken unit ever? Pepperidge Farm remembers.

A real peppridge farm would remember them showing up between the Indomitus box and dex release in 3x3s (for the people that could get them) and then getting nerfed when the dex released a couple months later.

If I recall correctly, they were nerfed AGAIN at some point, but I am not peppridge farm and forget if a second round of nerfs hit or not.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Voss wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:


Feel free to elaborate where you consider my summaries wrong.

Well, you did leave out a lot of the blather about percentages and charts (that weren't actually helpful); and of course 'terrain is magic and will stop them from being a threat while leaving them in charge range of the entire table but too far away to benefit from mont'ka.'

Right. Right. Hey guys. Does anyone else remember when Eradicators were the most broken unit ever? Pepperidge Farm remembers.

Huh. Now I'm not sure if you know if that means anything.
But I guess have a belated welcome to the 40k arms race, however. You've apparently missed DG resetting the initial paradigm with DR, then DE and AdMech escalating things far beyond that initial plateau.
Welcome to the latest plateau, since you've exchanged the plot for a random unrelated meme.

But in case you're still here for the Tau, they get rerolls to hit and rerolls to wound for free, and can sprinkle in some random bonuses to hit however they like (including also for free). Just like eradi... oh, no wait.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:


A real peppridge farm would remember them showing up between the Indomitus box and dex release in 3x3s (for the people that could get them) and then getting nerfed when the dex released a couple months later.

If I recall correctly, they were nerfed AGAIN at some point, but I am not peppridge farm and forget if a second round of nerfs hit or not.

5 points. That's it. And people still thought that wasn't enough.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Voss wrote:


But in case you're still here for the Tau, they get rerolls to hit and rerolls to wound for free, and can sprinkle in some random bonuses to hit however they like (including also for free)

Sprinkle in a single +1 via a likely 200 point HQ. Maybe he'll drop in price with him not handing out an aura.

It also won't stack with markerlights.

HH are within 10 points of current cost and lost a BS. The only thing that makes things better for HH from the previous picture is reroll wounds, which makes montka absolutely useless to them.

There's no more FTGG and no free overwatch. Only certain markerlight units can move before using them. Savior protocols is strat only now.

There's alot more to the Tau picture.

...did HH have a built-in re-roll to hit before, Daed?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:


A real peppridge farm would remember them showing up between the Indomitus box and dex release in 3x3s (for the people that could get them) and then getting nerfed when the dex released a couple months later.

If I recall correctly, they were nerfed AGAIN at some point, but I am not peppridge farm and forget if a second round of nerfs hit or not.

5 points. That's it. And people still thought that wasn't enough.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Voss wrote:


But in case you're still here for the Tau, they get rerolls to hit and rerolls to wound for free, and can sprinkle in some random bonuses to hit however they like (including also for free)

Sprinkle in a single +1 via a likely 200 point HQ. Maybe he'll drop in price with him not handing out an aura.

It also won't stack with markerlights.

HH are within 10 points of current cost and lost a BS. The only thing that makes things better for HH from the previous picture is reroll wounds, which makes montka absolutely useless to them.

There's no more FTGG and no free overwatch. Only certain markerlight units can move before using them. Savior protocols is strat only now.

There's alot more to the Tau picture.

You're doing it wrong, that one tank ignores invulns and has rerolls with high damage you immediately need to assume you've lost any game you could play, just in case they bait and switch into a 4 Hammerhead list which might kill 4 single wound infantry a turn if you don't have any big juicy tanks.

Woe me, its almost like they've introduced a rock-paper-scissors mechanic. The game isn't in a healthy state but the hammerhead is a symptom not a cause, but it's not going to ruin the game for most people.

Maybe I'm biased, I'll likely never see one, but then I don't play with douches that would rock up with 4 and laugh at how amazingly op their tank it while it kills 2 intercessors a turn.

Except that each Hammerhead kills 4 1W infantry a turn before factoring in secondary weapons/use of stratagems. Due to doing damage + mortal wounds.

 Dysartes wrote:
...did HH have a built-in re-roll to hit before, Daed?

I mean in the analysis before we discovered the points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Rihgu wrote:
Except that each Hammerhead kills 4 1W infantry a turn before factoring in secondary weapons/use of stratagems. Due to doing damage + mortal wounds.

Which is 20 to 40 points.

FYI to all the Broadside Railgun :

Heavy 2 S9, AP -4, d3+3 damage, 1 auto MW on successful wound

*closes Tomb World for business*

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Which is 20 to 40 points.

*cries in 96 points of Warp Talons*

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Voss wrote:


But in case you're still here for the Tau, they get rerolls to hit and rerolls to wound for free, and can sprinkle in some random bonuses to hit however they like (including also for free)

Sprinkle in a single +1 via a likely 200 point HQ. Maybe he'll drop in price with him not handing out an aura.

It also won't stack with markerlights.

I was referring to markerlights. The 'and also for free' was referencing the Farsight bonus. I wasn't including any sort of HQ, let alone a 200 point one.

HH are within 10 points of current cost and lost a BS. The only thing that makes things better for HH from the previous picture is reroll wounds, which makes montka absolutely useless to them.

And... you know, all their guns are better. Including even burst cannons, but whatever. And also reroll hits, so 'the only thing' is a lie.

There's alot more to the Tau picture.

Yes. There is.
Which is why your constant litanty of 'oh, the changes to HH's main gun don't matter and stormsurge guns don't matter and this & that change don't matter and whatever else doesn't matter' is a weird stance for you to take.

Now, the loss of FTGG and mass overwatch may screw the army over and make it more of a one note disaster, but that doesn't make the 'exceptions to exceptions' railgun OK, nor the overall continued escalation of the 'who has the even more bigger gun' race.

Markerlights get removed after every unit that shoots the target. So, without Longstrike you need 6 to apply two stacks to support two HH. That's a 6 man PF team which comes to about the same cost as LS and a HH.

Again, when I said "the only thing" I was referencing what changed from earlier in the discussions.

I didn't say the changes don't matter. What I did say was:

It sucks to have to deal with this issue without a quick patch for sure [ for Knights ].

It is still a problem for Knights who have to move out of the all titanic mindset and need more tools, but that's sort of outside whether or not the HH will be a problem overall.

No one is saying Knights are safe. They need tools to deal with this as do Greater Daemons. What people are saying is that the Rail Gun is by no means an absurd design for a weapon. There's other considerations that can make the HH stupid, but it's really impossible to discern where it will land and I'm betting other parts of the codex will be the bigger problem.

Bork'an makes Fusion Blasters 22", which means they come in at half range from DS. FB also picked up the Melta rule. Sky Rays never run out of ammo and can strat into ignoring LOS and +1 to wound on top of other stuff making them incredibly versatile and competing for slots in the Heavy section. Broadsides are INFANTRY and have a whole host of potential benefits. GKs can't be targeted at all outside 18". Kroot are pretty damn amazing.

What will dictate what gets used is what wins games. A tank in the back field isn't generally what will win you games unless you only face Knights.

Grey Knights not being able to be targeted from over 18" away would be an interesting way of bringing The Aegis back, but I'm not sure why such an upgrade would be in the Tau book...

There is nothing free in the new markerlights.

They are more powerful, but also much harder to apply.

Just so we are on the same page:

- Using the markerlights is an action which starts at the start of your movement phase and ends at the start of your shooting phase.

What this means, is that you can markerlight only the things that were visible at the start of the turn. You can't move to get line of sight and then apply a markerlight.
Actually, with the exception of drone and vehicles, you can't move at all or the markerlight fails.

- After the action is completed, you need to roll a 3+ for each ML to be applied. This isn't an hit roll, so you can't reroll it in any way. This has the perk though of allowing infantry to shoot both ML and normal weapons in the same turn.

- The pathfinders are the only ones who can move and THEN shoot the ML, but here's the catch... they now come only in units of 10! So you are sacrificing a lot to apply those ML.

Now, unfortunately the knights on some maps can't be hidden, so the MLs will get at them.
This means that Tau are back to their old role of being big game hunters.
This also means though, that a setup based on long range firing and ML support, will fail against most factions of the game. Said in other words, it is a skew.
Most Tau lists will be high mobility and short ranged.

Spoletta wrote:
- Using the markerlights is an action which starts at the start of your movement phase and ends at the start of your shooting phase.

What this means, is that you can markerlight only the things that were visible at the start of the turn. You can't move to get line of sight and then apply a markerlight.
Actually, with the exception of drone and vehicles, you can't move at all or the markerlight fails.

No, the rule states that you draw range and LOS at the start of the shooting phase, when the action ends.

Fire Markerlights (Action): One or more Markerlight units from your army can start to perform this action at the start of your movement phase. Aircraft Markerlight units can perform this action. The action is completed at the start of your next shooting phase.
If this action is successfully completed, for each model in that unit that is equipped with one or more markerlights, for each markerlight that model is equipped with, select one enemy unit within 36" of that model that would be an eligible target for that model if its unit had been selected to shoot, and roll one D6: on a 3+, that enemy unit gains one Markerlight token.
While a VEHICLE or DRONE unit is performing the Fire Markerlights action, that unit can move without that action failing. If it does, until the end of the turn, models in that unit without the VEHICLE or DRONE keyword that are equipped with any markerlights are treated as not being equipped with any markerlights for the purpose of the Fire Markerlights action.

(emphasis mine)

Only Fire Warrior shas'uis, Firesight Marksmen, Cadre Fireblades and Stealth shas'uis with ML will be the units that can't move and shoot ML natively (they can all do it in Montka during the first three turns anyway), because Drones, Vehicles and Pathfinders (ie all the remaining units with ML) all can move freely without the action failing.
And since Montka looks like the best choice 9 times out of 10, every single ML unit will be able to move and then apply them.

Well, at least if these leaks are accurate of course.

Oh, I didn't see that part.

Does Montka allow you to move without failing actions?

Spoletta wrote:
Oh, I didn't see that part.

Does Montka allow you to move without failing actions?

It says "Each time this unit makes a Normal Move or Advances in your Movement phase, until the end of your Shooting phase it counts as having Remained Stationary".
Since it's valid until the end of the shooting phase, it's valid during the time the ML action occurs.

If i remember correctly, in those situations you count as having performed a move and as having remained stationary. Since performing a move breaks actions, I think that ML won't work even with Montka. That's a topic for YMDC though.

I think Aenar is right with regards to what can't move and shoot MLs, but I think he is wrong with regards to Montka countering that.

What I'm wondering about is ML drones in Strike Teams, can they move and still ML? I'm looking forward to reading the whole codex!

EightFoldPath wrote:
I think Aenar is right with regards to what can't move and shoot MLs, but I think he is wrong with regards to Montka countering that.

What I'm wondering about is ML drones in Strike Teams, can they move and still ML? I'm looking forward to reading the whole codex!

Wording suggests that non-ML models don't count for the action, so won't cause it to fail.

I would assume the whole point of all these things being actions during the movement phase instead of being simply "if you didn't move then X" is precisely to avoid Mont'ka nullifying all of it.

So no I don't think you will be allowed to do actions and move during your movement phase with Mont'ka. And even if the community decides you can GW will faq it to specifically block it.

Spoletta wrote:
If i remember correctly, in those situations you count as having performed a move and as having remained stationary. Since performing a move breaks actions, I think that ML won't work even with Montka. That's a topic for YMDC though.

That would be correct - the act of making a normal move or advancing causes the action to fail, even if you count as being stationary.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Voss wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:


Feel free to elaborate where you consider my summaries wrong.

Well, you did leave out a lot of the blather about percentages and charts (that weren't actually helpful); and of course 'terrain is magic and will stop them from being a threat while leaving them in charge range of the entire table but too far away to benefit from mont'ka.'

Right. Right. Hey guys. Does anyone else remember when Eradicators were the most broken unit ever? Pepperidge Farm remembers.

chaos0xomega wrote:

 catbarf wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
100 units and 5 tanks does not sound very small scale to me.
And thats the issue, its not small to me, to you it might be, to me its not.

Look at the art in your codex and tell me if the battles look like they involve a total of 100 guys and 5 tanks on each side.

In the real world, that's not even a full infantry company, reinforced by an armored platoon, and their engagement would be a minor skirmish, not even a 'battle'. It's not a big enough unit to have organic air support or artillery. A fight at this scale really shouldn't involve either- an Imperial Guard company commander is not going to have aircraft, superheavy tanks, or division-level artillery directly under his command. That's just not how the Guard is structured.

To justify the force composition we see in 40K you basically have to assume you're playing a small part of a much larger battle, but with major strategic assets allocated to this particular skirmish for some reason. You're not playing the Battle of Stalingrad, you're playing Pavlov's House, except there's a King Tiger there.

Epic is a better representation of the scale of 40K lore, and operates at a game scale where things like superheavies, aircraft, and long-range artillery fit more organically.

He said 100 *units*, not 100 *guys*. 100 *units* is not a company, depending on what you mean by "units" you're probably talking somewhere between a battalion and a brigade in size, which could (and likely would) have access to at least some, if not all of the organic assets you're clamoring on about depending on the organization of the guard unit in question.

Also, your perception of what constitutes a battle is flawed. By definition, a battle is "an occurrence of combat in warfare between opposing military units of any number or size that is well defined in duration, area, and force commitment." Two companies clashing can certainly constitute a battle, arguably this is more or less typical for what might constitute a battle in the modern war especially in lower intensity conflict. Given how wide unit frontages have become and the extremely large areas of operation that very small units are expected to cover in the modern day on what are termed "empty battlefields" for a fairly good reason, its not outside of the realm of reality for two company sized formations to enter into a discrete combat action that would be termed a battle.

A King Tiger does not constitute a "strategic asset" by any sense of the definition of the term.

This is kind of a semantic argument. Yeah, any time there is an engagement you can technically call it a battle but in reality we don't. Otherwise we would have things like "The 407th battle of Sangin Valley" when in reality, unless there was a major operation involving at the least a Battalion backed with MEF level artillery/armor/air power, we just called it a skirmish or a firefight. I mean hell, I remember when 1st Battalion 6th Marines did a battalion sized attack against the Taliban who dominated the Sofla area around the Kajaki Dam, I think it had an operational name, something like Eastern Storm, but it didn't even get a battle name or anything glorious. And that unit had something like 1,000 Marines/sailors if you include the MEF assets assigned.

So with that in mind, yeah, these "battles" we fight on tabletop would be at best skirmishes, and the # of vehicles involved would be odd in most circumstances.

 Daedalus81 wrote:


Right. Right. Hey guys. Does anyone else remember when Eradicators were the most broken unit ever? Pepperidge Farm remembers.

You mean the Eradicators which heavily featured in every single Marine list for the first few months after their codex was released until they received a 12% increase in price and Marine players decided to switch over to the MM attack bikes which were ALMOST as damaging but significantly more durable/faster. You are right, I do remember them being oppressive in their ability to delete units at will.

SemperMortis wrote:
You mean the Eradicators which heavily featured in every single Marine list for the first few months after their codex was released until they received a 12% increase in price and Marine players decided to switch over to the MM attack bikes which were ALMOST as damaging but significantly more durable/faster. You are right, I do remember them being oppressive in their ability to delete units at will.

And by "heavy" we talk about 3-6 models (aka 1 full squad) usually? IIRC there never was a top1 list going "heavy" with 18 Eradicators.

I think up until the codex came out they were max 3 squad size, and I remember plenty of 9 eradicator lists (3x3).

They were always 6, but you don't take them in squads of 6 since they have to target the same unit, and 6 erads are really an overkill on anything smaller than a knight.

You take them in squad of 6 to avoid burning many HS slots, then you just combat squad them and they become two independent units of three models.

6 models were the bare minimum at the beginning of 9th as tons of players got two SM halves from the starter set. Then 9-12 were also an option, even though a bit less common due to models' availability.

Dudeface wrote:

You're doing it wrong, that one tank ignores invulns and has rerolls with high damage you immediately need to assume you've lost any game you could play, just in case they bait and switch into a 4 Hammerhead list which might kill 4 single wound infantry a turn if you don't have any big juicy tanks.

It has secondary weapons as well. It can pump out 8 pulse carbine or 12 burst cannon shots or whatever the smart missile system is these days.

I mean, if you're fighting marines. You put the railgun against dreadnoughts, attack bikes, characters, basically any single target with a lot of wounds.

SemperMortis wrote:
You mean the Eradicators which heavily featured in every single Marine list for the first few months after their codex was released until they received a 12% increase in price and Marine players decided to switch over to the MM attack bikes which were ALMOST as damaging but significantly more durable/faster. You are right, I do remember them being oppressive in their ability to delete units at will.

No.

Eradicators featured heavily in some lists. Namely hamfisted Salamanders lists. At the same time Drop pod devs, attack bikes, and BGV featured quite a lot as well.

An Eradicator went to 45 points. An Attack Bike was 55. Attack Bikes were popular for far longer than Eradicators ever were even though they were less powerful on paper. Why? Because there's a lot more than "this unit does a lot of damage!" to 40K.

We'll see lists with four HH and then people will probably learn that there are better more nuanced lists that are more effective.

a_typical_hero wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
You mean the Eradicators which heavily featured in every single Marine list for the first few months after their codex was released until they received a 12% increase in price and Marine players decided to switch over to the MM attack bikes which were ALMOST as damaging but significantly more durable/faster. You are right, I do remember them being oppressive in their ability to delete units at will.

And by "heavy" we talk about 3-6 models (aka 1 full squad) usually? IIRC there never was a top1 list going "heavy" with 18 Eradicators.

yes, they featured by SM standards HEAVILY. Or are we only going to call "heavily" maxing out, if that is the case then almost no unit plays heavily into any space Marine list.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

No.
Eradicators featured heavily in some lists. Namely hamfisted Salamanders lists. At the same time Drop pod devs, attack bikes, and BGV featured quite a lot as well.
An Eradicator went to 45 points. An Attack Bike was 55. Attack Bikes were popular for far longer than Eradicators ever were even though they were less powerful on paper. Why? Because there's a lot more than "this unit does a lot of damage!" to 40K.

We'll see lists with four HH and then people will probably learn that there are better more nuanced lists that are more effective.

So to summarize, you admit they were heavily into some lists until people realized that MM attack bikes were better because they had more durability/speed with slightly less firepower. Likewise, a lot of people ran Dev MM because the overall cost might be slightly higher, but they were a 175pt auto-delete anything on the table unit in a drop pod, something that Eradicators couldn't have because apparently its too hard to retrofit a drop pod to handle an extra 4 inches of Primaris Marine

The point was that yes they were heavily relied upon in a lot of lists, in competitive lists they made frequent appearances until people realized that with the 9th mission set it would be better to go for speed teamed with that ridiculous firepower put out by the newly buffed MM.

BTW, SM Players, I was promised my Tankbustas were going to get a similar treatment to MMs.....still waiting for that