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Let's say the marine can survive the 10,000 in the forest scenario. I don't think they have to kill every guardsmen, if they are taking down a squad or two a day, a platoon on a good day, how long until the guard devolve into infighting, breaking of morale, killing their own for supplies?

I really don't think it would take that long, if the marine could survive a month, and get enough done in that month to cause major morale and leadership issues within the guard, I think it wins on a technicality as the guard would consume themselves (maybe quite literally via cannibalism) unless they got resupplies, at which point it is a different argument.

Kick it old school. 2nd Ed old school. With a Virus Grenade Wargear card.

That’s the Guard a’ deid.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So I propose a test:

Would a chapter fortress of JUST space Marines be able to hold off an entire tendril of a hive fleet? Yes, and has at least twice. The Ultramarines, and the Blood Angels.

Could a planet of JUST imperial guard and PDF hold off a Tyranid invasion? No. Nor could they even hope to. Even if every single IG soldier was given a plasma rifle, a melta pistol, and a power fist. Entire hive worlds have fallen with far greater support than just the guard can manage. The Space Marines are the only ones who've literally beaten them back.

That is how much more a space marine is than a standard human.

I disagree with your argument entirely. Not only can you not prove a negative, there's no particular reason to think that Imperial Guard equipped as superlatively as you might say would have the kind of trouble you imply.

yakkety yak, blah blah blah goalposts shifting blah blah!

How about we strip it right back.

One m'fing Marine but BEFORE having been taken as an aspirant, implanted, indoctrinated, trained, armed and armoured and not having left their hive world, planet, starfort location of origin etc.

VS

10,000 Guardsmen.

 Mr. Burning wrote:
yakkety yak, blah blah blah goalposts shifting blah blah!

How about we strip it right back.

One m'fing Marine but BEFORE having been taken as an aspirant, implanted, indoctrinated, trained, armed and armoured and not having left their hive world, planet, starfort location of origin etc.

VS

10,000 Guardsmen.

How would that argument be relevant?

Hecaton wrote:

 Mr. Burning wrote:
yakkety yak, blah blah blah goalposts shifting blah blah!

How about we strip it right back.

One m'fing Marine but BEFORE having been taken as an aspirant, implanted, indoctrinated, trained, armed and armoured and not having left their hive world, planet, starfort location of origin etc.

VS

10,000 Guardsmen.

How would that argument be relevant?

I thought we mostly agreed on the answer on the first page and have been more or less exploring the question in greater depth by looking at different angles for the past 9 pages...

DeadliestIdiot wrote:

Hecaton wrote:

 Mr. Burning wrote:
yakkety yak, blah blah blah goalposts shifting blah blah!

How about we strip it right back.

One m'fing Marine but BEFORE having been taken as an aspirant, implanted, indoctrinated, trained, armed and armoured and not having left their hive world, planet, starfort location of origin etc.

VS

10,000 Guardsmen.

How would that argument be relevant?

I thought we mostly agreed on the answer on the first page and have been more or less exploring the question in greater depth by looking at different angles for the past 9 pages...

Nah, people like Fezzik are still arguing the point despite it being ridiculous.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Kick it old school. 2nd Ed old school. With a Virus Grenade Wargear card.

That’s the Guard a’ deid.

It didn't have much range for infection, so unless the 10,000 are in one big cloud it kills some and then stops. Besides it's not really the Marine doing the killing, a Guardsman could get the same result by throwing a Virus Grenade, whuich just makes an argument towards "why have Marines in the first place?")

Tell that to anyone who’s opponent hadn’t cut up their Virus Outbreak Strategy Card!

Ravenguard Lt in Sneaky Phobos Armour. Lurk around the Guard’s intended landing site.

Wait for landing, set off Virus Grenades. Kick back and watch as they rapidly turn to soup.

Nah, man, the Navy support cleared the landing with a lance battery strike, the Marine is dead.

Nope, the Marine would not allow the navy to fire on him.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Nah, man, the Navy support cleared the landing with a lance battery strike, the Marine is dead.

That’s bringing in Allies again

As I mentioned before: How much firepower would one Space Marine need to kill another Space marine?
20 Bolter shots? 40?

Now how much fire would 10.000 IG troopers direct at him? Including their (krak) grenades and potential special weapons.
If they can't kill a Space Marine, neither can a space marine. So then when facing Chaos Space Marines it does kind of come down to the Navy right? Since it seems Space Marines only die to orbital lance strikes and will never succumb to thousands of shots from anything lower than that.

OK, maybe a bit overdramatic, but I felt like at least mentioning it.

I'm reminded of the scene in Unforgiven, amended for topic focus:

English Bob: Well there's a dignity Astartes. A majesty that precludes the likelihood of assassination. If you were to point a las-rifle at a Space Marine your hands would shakes as though palsied.

Conscript: Oh I wouldn't point no lasrifle at nobody sir.

English Bob : Well that's a wise policy, a wise policy. But if you did. I can assure you, if you did, that the sight of Astartes would cause you to dismiss all thoughts of bloodshed and you would stand... how shall I put it? In awe. Now, a Company Commander... well I mean...

Again all comes down to specific tactics and combat proficiency.

The first place any Marine would want to strike in such a situation would be the Command Structure. Due to its rigidity, Imperial Guard aren’t exactly encouraged to fight on their own initiative for the most part.

Take out the Company Command (really not that hard if you can get close enough) and that’s a hefty blow. You then end up with relatively Junior Officers having to conference to agree ways forward, whereas before Company Command sez, everyone else duz.

The Marine would also be able to ascertain and listen in on such chatter. This would near inevitably reveal their deployment disposition.

Should a section leader etc start to show proper tactical nous? Guess who’s next up on the Hit List. That’s right. Them and anyone else showing so much as a glimmer of competence.

Rinse and repeat a few times, let alone including my previous horror show of the potential to constantly broadcast the sound of slaughter, and suddenly you’re not facing a single unified force, but dozens of smaller, increasingly disorganised forces.

Still not a “and therefore the Marine wins” situation like. But a far more achievable goal.

And remember, every Marine started off in the Scout Companies. They’re all skilled and experienced in sneaking around and disrupting enemy supply chains

Get to the ammo dump, and Booby Trap it. Even a single primed Frag or Kroak Grenade, positioned in the right place can work wonders - and you don’t even need to be nearby. Pull the pin (or whatever), wedge it in somewhere, and then scarper. Sooner or later it’s gone be disturbed, the. kaboom.

Strike and fade, rinse and repeat. Death by 10,000 cuts.

As I and others have pointed out? It’s not gonna take terribly long for such tactics to start eroding Guard morale. Massacre here, slaughter there, careful infiltration and strategic assassination there. It all adds up.

I mean…consider what a Marine can do to a human body. Snapping necks is the work of a split second. Once dead, if you’ve time? Start wrenching off limbs. Turn a killing into a butchering. Leave very visual reminders of just what it is they’re trying to kill. Break that nerve. Terrify them. Make them realise that a Demi-God, and one the evidence shows to be invulnerable is stalking them.

But it all stands on assumption that the Marine and his kit always get off undamaged and that the Guardsmen can ever see him coming

What if the helmet gets serious damage on the attempt what if he gets too close to an explosion that triggers the explosives he carries. It's always ideal scenarios that involve the Marine succeeding at their objectives with no further impediments

Then the Astartes still has superior vision, hearing, breathing, intelligence (the brain kind, not the data kind), smell, and can gain information through the consumption of brain matter.
The biggest problem is that there have been times when a Lasgun has killed an Astartes with a headshot and others where an Astartes has taken intense damage to the head and kept on killing.

Still leaves him open to headshots, and with no real ways to tap into the comms


And that's not going into him always getting away with each strikes unharmed, always perfectly able to snipe all the special/heavy weapons and a myriad of other things just magically working for the Marine, always in his favor.

Headshots that, as has been established, can either kill or have little to no effect. Just saying "But headshots" doesn't actually mean anything when the variance is so large.
As for coms, the Astartes picks up a com bead or eats brains to get information.

He has to eat the right brain, he has to have time to eat the brain, how does he process all the infromation that from over 18+ years of living? Does it takes long, is there a limit to how much can be absorbed (I expect it to be no, because the greatest flaw of the Marines as is is that they have no limitations to begin with)
There's a lot to be considered there

Comm beads dont usually pick up comms from Company pevel chatter, he would need to use a Vox Caster and tune itnto the right frequency, after the Guard realise their Vox has gone missing, they'd switch.

How many Guardsmen would it take to kill a Necron Triarch Praetorian? Would it get as many defenders as Space Marines, saying it has a good chance against thousands?

 TheBestBucketHead wrote:
How many Guardsmen would it take to kill a Necron Triarch Praetorian? Would it get as many defenders as Space Marines, saying it has a good chance against thousands?

A Praetorian is a millions of years old killing machine with a regenerating body, anti-grav pack, and a big stick that can melt even Necrons into puddles with a single shot. Probably a similar amount if the situation is the same as with the Astartes. Even then the limitations of a meat body are simply removed with the Praetorian. No bones to break, no blood to lose, no psychological damage to be had.

As for Bob, I'm not arguing every single small possibility in this argument. It's not fun. Enjoy your internet points.

Ok, the Space Marine is a brother of the Legion of the Damned. End match. Marine Wins.

So he never appears to begin with, because no Imperial forces are in combat or under imminent threat of being defeated.

IG wins because they actually show up.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Nope, the Marine would not allow the navy to fire on him.

He wouldn't even know. If he's waiting where the IG lands, they're going to clear the landing space with lance batteries and then land.

So the Navy is going to knowingly fire on a loyalist Astartes without his permission? Don't think so.

Marine Wins.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So the Navy is going to knowingly fire on a loyalist Astartes without his permission? Don't think so.

Marine Wins.

Man, talking with you is a waste of time.

Wait.....

Fezzik - You think that loyal Astartes wont ever be a target for the other loyal military arms of the Imperium?

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So the Navy is going to knowingly fire on a loyalist Astartes without his permission? Don't think so.

Marine Wins.

They wouldn't know he's there, either.

 TheBestBucketHead wrote:
How many Guardsmen would it take to kill a Necron Triarch Praetorian? Would it get as many defenders as Space Marines, saying it has a good chance against thousands?

Aha!

Trick question. Even if he gets all shot to ribbons, chances of a kill are vanishingly tiny low, because the Praetorian will phase out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bobthehero wrote:
But it all stands on assumption that the Marine and his kit always get off undamaged and that the Guardsmen can ever see him coming

What if the helmet gets serious damage on the attempt what if he gets too close to an explosion that triggers the explosives he carries. It's always ideal scenarios that involve the Marine succeeding at their objectives with no further impediments

Ravenguard Infiltrator. The infiltration unit of choice

Just saying Infiltrators! and then assuming it will magically work doesn't quite help.

Otherwise: IG have Plasma Guns! And Searchlight! And Auspex! They will be fine. It's on the same level.