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HidaO-Win wrote:

SamusDrake wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2024/09/10/kill-teams-of-the-aeldari-outwit-outmaneuver-and-overwhelm/

Yeah...got a feeling the Void-Dancer team will be replaced in the near future.

Hopefully not too soon, a bunch of factions are going to have no kill teams while the extended Aeldari have four even with Void-Dancers getting retired. Sisters of Silence seem like a hint for an upcoming Imperial one.

While I agree that Tyranids could do with earlier factions and Orks really need something this season given that Kommandoz rotate out, I think categorising Drukhari as part of an overall 40k Aeldari faction (leaving aside that Kill Team mechanically doesn't care) is like saying that, since Imperium has 6 kill teams (and that's leaving aside Astartes) and Chaos has 4 and 2 digital, AdMech, Thousand Sons and Death Guard should be later. I get that since the Ynnari GW seems like it doesn't quite know what to do with the Eldar as a whole, but going down the route of "all elves same" seems like it furthers that feeling of disinterest. At least to me it seems like we have 2 craftworld (ish, given corsairs are weird) and 2 commorite teams, though I understand why non-elf players would collapse it all.

Of course Imperium sells and Chaos probably sells the next most so there's that whole thing to contend with.

Chaos KT (except CSM) article is up : https://www.warhammer-community.com/2024/09/11/chaos-kill-teams-let-the-galaxy-burn/

A quick aside on designers intent, difficulty of learning a team, bespoke rules, balance etc. Blood Bowl. Admittedly GWs worse design instincts are creeping in, especially with stars (who often get banned for that reason), the game does remarkably well with a series of universal rules and limited stat variance. Obviously that is eroding because GW can't help but have unique skills (I can only imagine every GW designer is a special snowflake and wishes everything was too). But at its core for a very long time it achieved an awful lot of complexity with very little complication.

OK, so its GW so complication is now compulsory, but Kill team would still benefit from a few 'intro' teams that didn't rely on gimmicks just core rules to play. Because they are great to teach people how to play and also a relief sometimes when you want a simple game.

One of my favourite teams was the 'Stealer compendium team. Everything pretty much identical, but with uniformity across the models the oppo could focus more on what they were doing and I could sneak around and leap out at the enemy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

deano2099 wrote:
That's definitely one way to do it. You can try and essentially entice people to play it by letting them use their existing models.

There is another way though. You can just make a really good game. Sometimes, those two options are in conflict. I'm pleasantly surprised when any company takes the "make a good game" route over the easier one.

Yeah, lets not have an unreachable expectation for GW


Automatically Appended Next Post:

The_Real_Chris wrote:

Yes - its odd that 'core/traditional' team team options would go.
In terms of 'evergreen/core teams' I would of thought given the background Deathwatch kill teams (funniest omission), Scouts, Scions, pathfinders, Kommandos, whatever those AdMech inilftrator/scouts are, scorpions+rangers, CSM chosen, 'Nid infiltrators and flayed ones or whatever Necrons use for infiltration. 10 core units, all using 40k boxes, no extra SKUs. Have whatever cast of rotating teams built around them.

Still think having a stable core for the new teams to be measured against and rotate around, each evocative of that races classic options, is the way to go...

The_Real_Chris wrote:
OK, so its GW so complication is now compulsory, but Kill team would still benefit from a few 'intro' teams that didn't rely on gimmicks just core rules to play. Because they are great to teach people how to play and also a relief sometimes when you want a simple game.

Hopefully that's what the Space Marine team should be like.

I thought KT could be fun to get into with the new edition, but I've found the rules samples from this week's articles incredibly difficult to parse. I never got around to KT21, but had a great time with KT18... KT24 does not seem to be for me at all.

any info on how solo play is supposed to work?

 Prometheum5 wrote:
I thought KT could be fun to get into with the new edition, but I've found the rules samples from this week's articles incredibly difficult to parse. I never got around to KT21, but had a great time with KT18... KT24 does not seem to be for me at all.

It is odd they are showcasing rules without saying how the game works first.

 usernamesareannoying wrote:
any info on how solo play is supposed to work?

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2024/08/23/kill-team-co-op-tackle-intense-joint-ops-missions-in-the-newest-game-mode/" target="_new" rel="nofollow"> https://www.warhammer-community.com/2024/08/23/kill-team-co-op-tackle-intense-joint-ops-missions-in-the-newest-game-mode/

The_Real_Chris wrote:


OK, so its GW so complication is now compulsory, but Kill team would still benefit from a few 'intro' teams that didn't rely on gimmicks just core rules to play. Because they are great to teach people how to play and also a relief sometimes when you want a simple game.

One of my favourite teams was the 'Stealer compendium team. Everything pretty much identical, but with uniformity across the models the oppo could focus more on what they were doing and I could sneak around and leap out at the enemy.
.

The KT starter set available for ages had a bunch of missions that let you play through simplified starter games... and both those teams made it perfectly legal to just take a leader a bunch of regular, non specialist units.
That's basically the answer. If you want to play a non-competitive team with simpler rules (like the compendium teams are now) just play any team but take all the basic troops.
Yes, the most competitive lists mean taking as many different operatives as possible so you can deal with anything, but most teams do have the option for far simpler play. Folks just ignore it because they also have the shiny stuff.

(Admittedly there's an issue with how you build them but you can build the different operatives and just say "they are all basic Kommando Boyz today")

 PenitentJake wrote:

 Haighus wrote:

Do Kasrkin, Scions, and Aquilons need different rules? No. They are fundamentally the same unit (elite stormtroopers in carapace armour) and a unified entry could encompass all their options.

I don't disagree that it could be done; it could be.

But come on Haighus, you don't really want this, do you? This idea is so bad it could suck the chrome off a trailer hitch.

And not just in terms of the game or creativity, but in a business sense. If you've got one profile that can be served by 3 different models, you'll sell 1/3 of the models. And the team that sells the least will ALWAYS be on the block.

Are you saying that the only reason to buy Aquilons is because they have slightly different rules to Kasrkin or Scions? They are pretty much cosmetic variants already.

For what its worth, I am very happy to own cosmetic variants of the same unit. I have 9 different aesthetics for infantry squads (3 converted) and models with 3 different stormtrooper aesthetics. A lot of people like having choice. GW managed to support 6+ different Guard aesthetic ranges for 2 decades when they were smaller. I don't see why this is a terrible option.

 Haighus wrote:

Are you saying that the only reason to buy Aquilons is because they have slightly different rules to Kasrkin or Scions?

No, I'm saying that if the rules for the three factions/ teams aren't different, a significant portion of the players who already have 2/3 of them may opt not to buy the third, which would be bad for the bottom line of the game, which limits the amount GW can invest in it without haemorrhaging shareholders.

 Haighus wrote:

They are pretty much cosmetic variants already.

For what its worth, I am very happy to own cosmetic variants of the same unit. I have 9 different aesthetics for infantry squads (3 converted) and models with 3 different stormtrooper aesthetics. A lot of people like having choice. GW managed to support 6+ different Guard aesthetic ranges for 2 decades when they were smaller. I don't see why this is a terrible option.

Which is totally cool, but GW doesn't have to make the game more bland for people who like mechanical variety between factions/teams and risk the business consequences of that in order for you to keep doing it the way you like it. Heck, I want my Inquistorial Agents from each of the three Ordos to look different whether or not their profiles are different... But I would also PREFER their profiles to be different because I DO think that an Inquisitor would bring different tools depending on what they're fighting.

Now, GW isn't going to do that, and that's okay: I will build the Inquisitorial Agent unit as is, and use it for my Hereticus dudes. If the Inquisitor leading them is Radical, I might add a Daemonhost. For Xenos, I want to use converted Van Saar because a body suit that has multiple eye lenses in their helmets look more alien. And when their Inquisitor is a radical, I might add a Jokaero (and my unaligned Zoat, though he won't be in the IA unit). Not sure what I'm going to use for my Malleus yet- the Breacher models with their classic BSG Cylon Raider helmets would be a good fit... But I don't want to proxy one IA unit for another- if my Malleus need to hitch a ride for narrative reasons, there would be ACTUAL Breachers in the battle and that would get confusing.

Maybe Enforcers, but I want them to have a more archaic look, in the same way that GK are archaic looking.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2024/09/12/xenos-kill-teams-beware-the-cunning-and-resourceful-alien/

And now the Xenos. Thankfully Eldar have all gone up in the 40K world and are now their own thing...

Von Ryan's Leapers and the Neurolictor have to be a team of their own! It would be so awesome...

I never used shapes in this edition, always inches, but I really appreciated that the side effect of these shapes existing was unification of ranges. You just know a short range weapon or ability works in 6", a very short range one in 3" for example. Neat, elegant.

I can see now they are going for more granularity, but I think it is unnecessary complication and mental load for the sake of mental load. This guy's pistol is 8" RNG, but that guy's is 9". What for ? So that players spend more time looking up stats instead of playing the game?

I'll add, that I think shorter ranges in miniature wargames in my experience lead to more interesting gameplay, as your positioning needs to be that much sharper. The last thing is, that the longer the range, the harder it is to measure it correctly in close calls in the type of environment KT is usually played in (terrain heavy). This edition it was 6" or no measuring at all - easy.

All in all I am not a fan of the change to pistols (and probably other limited range weapons).

Cyel wrote:

I'll add, that I think shorter ranges in miniature wargames in my experience lead to more interesting gameplay, as your positioning needs to be that much sharper.

You should try playing cross fire. Unlimited range, as its 28mm. As a consequence your positioning gets extremely important as when you expose yourself the enemy gets to shot and potentially kill or supress you. It really is an awesome game but needs a good terrain set up.

Ok, the basic SM team got me interested. Tell me how KT works in terms of turn sequence. Is it still Movement-Shooting-Assault, or...?

 RaptorusRex wrote:
Ok, the basic SM team got me interested. Tell me how KT works in terms of turn sequence. Is it still Movement-Shooting-Assault, or...?

It's alternate activation - you choose a single model, perform 2 or 3 actions from the list of actions with it in any order you want and pass play to your opponent.

Cyel wrote:

 RaptorusRex wrote:
Ok, the basic SM team got me interested. Tell me how KT works in terms of turn sequence. Is it still Movement-Shooting-Assault, or...?

It's alternate activation - you choose a single model, perform 2 or 3 actions from the list of actions with it in any order you want and pass play to your opponent.

Each “turning point” (aka battle round in other GW games) has a common set of starting turn phases where the players activate global strategies in turn and set their operatives’ orders for the turn (conceal or engage) which determines what sort of actions they can take and how terrain affects them.
Then all combat proceeds as described above. Generally you can only do one of each action per operative ( so move and shoot, not shoot and shoot or move and move. But since actions can happen in any order you can fight combat, kill the opponent, then choose to shoot a more distant one.

It seems not, but do you have to pre-declare your actions?

As in “attempt to kick this guy’s head in, move, then shoot someone”.

Or do you do it one at a time?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It seems not, but do you have to pre-declare your actions?

As in “attempt to kick this guy’s head in, move, then shoot someone”.

Or do you do it one at a time?

It's choose as you go. Inquisitor was the one where you declare everything up front.

 Mr_Rose wrote:
...and set their operatives’ orders for the turn (conceal or engage) which determines what sort of actions they can take and how terrain affects them.

Unfortunately, that's not the case. When I first started reading about KT I thought it was like that and I liked the idea because I love programming moves in games (secret orders in aGOT or Starcraft were one of my first encounters with modern board games and I loved them!). Currently you only do this in the first turn of the game and even this is going to change in the incoming edition.

For the rest of the turns you do not choose the order at the start of the turn, but at the start of the model's activation. You still need to take into account that this model will keep this order until its next activation, which has various consequences. It isn't programming, but still an interesting decision to make.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It seems not, but do you have to pre-declare your actions?

As in “attempt to kick this guy’s head in, move, then shoot someone”.

Or do you do it one at a time?

One at a time. So, for example, you can see the result of your shot, and then decide whether to grab an objective or hide or charge in to finish the job.

 Shakalooloo wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It seems not, but do you have to pre-declare your actions?

As in “attempt to kick this guy’s head in, move, then shoot someone”.

Or do you do it one at a time?

It's choose as you go. Inquisitor was the one where you declare everything up front.

Unless you, IIRC, paused for breath after each action hehe.

 Shakalooloo wrote:


It's choose as you go. Inquisitor was the one where you declare everything up front.

I loved the "Pause for Breath" mechanic in the game- it made the pre-declaration thing work, because if you had five actions, you could declare 2 + Pause for Breath, which meant you could decide what to do for actions four and five (which would be declared together during your Pause.

Super cool system- I actually applied it to Celerity actions in Vampire the Masquerade because I thought it was that cool.

Cyel wrote:


Unfortunately, that's not the case. When I first started reading about KT I thought it was like that and I liked the idea because I love programming moves in games (secret orders in aGOT or Starcraft were one of my first encounters with modern board games and I loved them!). Currently you only do this in the first turn of the game and even this is going to change in the incoming edition.

It is one of those odd bits about the wording choices in KT21 like Turning Point. The order tokens aren't quite like perhaps more commonly used order tokens in other games. Nothing insurmountable (and certainly, "orders" gets used differently in different games) but it was a momentary blip for me when I was getting used to the rules.

Longstrider wrote:


It is one of those odd bits about the wording choices in KT21 like Turning Point. The order tokens aren't quite like perhaps more commonly used order tokens in other games. Nothing insurmountable (and certainly, "orders" gets used differently in different games) but it was a momentary blip for me when I was getting used to the rules.

Oh, no, I got this impression after watching gameplay on YT. When I actually read the rules it was pretty clear how it works. I like KT rules most of the time, and I do not wish to go back to wording like when I started playing WFB 5th edition, where rules were like poetry and you had to guess what the author meant. Warmachine got me used to "if you don't know read, the rule and it works exactly as it is written" and I am happy to see it in KT too.

Can't find any Kill Team items on Warhammer store now... Hmmmmmm....

The starter is last chance to buy, everything else is indeed gone. Tomorrow it is then!

All the teams are gone, or just the bigger boxes?

 Dysartes wrote:
All the teams are gone, or just the bigger boxes?

Rebranded boxes to have the QR codes to link to the online rules on them. There's a been a couple of pictures floating around from one of the recent Warhammer+ battle reports or something, where some of the new style boxes were in the background on top of a shelf.

They're also rereleasing Bheta Decima and the Gallowdark in the same style.

Excellent news. I wonder when the new rulebook will be released as a standalone product...

Awww, bugger. Next Saturday at 10 I am doing to be part way through a 100 mile run in a complete dead zone for mobile reception. I had really hoped it would be the week after. Hopefully there are actually good stock levels so I can pick it up later in the day.