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Made in us
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 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
 RaptorusRex wrote:
 Illumini wrote:
Bretonnia makes more sense as a more baroque country than medieval anyway. The super medieval "no shooting" stuff was not interesting or realistic. They should have some gunpowder weaponry when they are surrounded by other cultures using firearms for hundreds of years.


Not really. The only reason the Empire has guns is because they learned how to make and use them from the Dwarfs. There aren't as many Dwarf Holds in the Grey Mountains, and those that are there were only there for only a relatively short time before the Bretonni came. There are also less expatriate Dwarfs, as there are in the Empire.

The chivalry thing is also a pretense for keeping weapons that can pierce the armor of Knights out of the hands of the peasantry. This ties into the general state of Bretonnian society; there is no real middle class and no real industry. Firearms are thus prohibitively expensive. Crossbows are similarly illegal. As such, the "infantry revolution" that occurred in historical feudal Europe never happened in Bretonnia.


Which makes it a wonder why they'll still around


The answer is magic. Grail Knights are superhumans in fluff, capable of fighting entire armies on their lonesome.




The thing about 40k is that no one person can grasp the fullness of it.

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That is an elaborately messy and hard to read bit of comic.

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Rihgu wrote:
That is an elaborately messy and hard to read bit of comic.


Nobody ever said that the Inferno/Warhammer Monthly comics are technical achievements in the artform.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/17 19:53:09


The thing about 40k is that no one person can grasp the fullness of it.

My 95th Praetorian Rifles.

SW Successors

Dwarfs
 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut






 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

Which makes it a wonder why they'll still around


Bretonnia is relatively sheltered. Some orcs, some undead, some beastmen, maybe a Norscan/DE raid - none of those things are a serious existential threat.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/17 20:02:54


 
   
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Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf





 His Master's Voice wrote:
 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

Which makes it a wonder why they'll still around


Bretonnia is relatively sheltered. Some orcs, some undead, some beastmen, maybe a Norscan/DE raid - none of those things are a serious existential threat.


More than anything, WHFB was never really supposed to be a realistic setting, lol.

Bretonnia gave you one thing and Empire another, no need to mix them just because in the real world guns would have replaced archers.
   
Made in us
Keeper of the Flame





Monticello, IN

 Platuan4th wrote:
 Just Tony wrote:


I'm talking more the absolute Flanderized levels of it. Commoners vs. royalty is one thing, but the absolute destitution shown in the 6th Ed. book runs contrary to the ideals that the Code of Chivalry expouses.


I really liked that about the 6th ed book because of the fact it resembled the utter hypocrisy that was Chivalric Code, both real life and fantasy.They're ideals that literally no human can actually follow because they're human. Hell, Bretonnia is basically Arthurian fan fiction and all but one of the Knights of the Round Table failed to live up to the code fully in the end.


I think that's not true. There are people all the time who live up to their moral codes despite being human or societal pressures. It's silly to hold a nihilistic standard to an army in this game solely based on that presumption. It is more because there can't be a "good" guy in either system. Everyone MUST be as barbaric and evil as Chaos.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Illumini wrote:
Bretonnia makes more sense as a more baroque country than medieval anyway. The super medieval "no shooting" stuff was not interesting or realistic. They should have some gunpowder weaponry when they are surrounded by other cultures using firearms for hundreds of years.


Any time I see someone use the word "interesting" in discussions like this I go gloss-eyed. It's no different than the people lauding the concept of corrupt Autobots that are every bit as bad if not worse than the Decepticons. Everyone set to amoral bastard is far less interesting than the thought of someone holding their moral/ethical/piety ground against all odds. It's why Superman and Captain America are such great characters but edgelord tryhards find them "dull", "boring", or "not interesting".

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/18 08:25:49


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Biloxi, MS USA

 Just Tony wrote:
 Platuan4th wrote:
 Just Tony wrote:


I'm talking more the absolute Flanderized levels of it. Commoners vs. royalty is one thing, but the absolute destitution shown in the 6th Ed. book runs contrary to the ideals that the Code of Chivalry expouses.


I really liked that about the 6th ed book because of the fact it resembled the utter hypocrisy that was Chivalric Code, both real life and fantasy.They're ideals that literally no human can actually follow because they're human. Hell, Bretonnia is basically Arthurian fan fiction and all but one of the Knights of the Round Table failed to live up to the code fully in the end.


I think that's not true. There are people all the time who live up to their moral codes despite being human or societal pressures. It's silly to hold a nihilistic standard to an army in this game solely based on that presumption. It is more because there can't be a "good" guy in either system. Everyone MUST be as barbaric and evil as Chaos.


That's not a nihilistic standard, look up medieval historians talking about Chivalric Code. It was an impossible to obtain ideal that was flouted by the royal courts even as they lauded the people trying to maintain the code.

As for there not being a "good" guy in either system, that's patently untrue. The 40K studio workers have stated time and again that the Space Wolves are viewed in the studio as the actual good guys and heroes of the setting.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/18 11:45:50


You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
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Lake County, Illinois

The Space Wolves? Evidently the guys in the studio now don't understand the setting very well if the Space Wolves are the good guys.
   
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Germany

 Albino Squirrel wrote:
The Space Wolves? Evidently the guys in the studio now don't understand the setting very well if the Space Wolves are the good guys.


I think that was simply very thinly-veiled sarcasm

Or at least i hope, by God

"Tabletop games are the only setting when a body is made more horrifying for NOT being chopped into smaller pieces."
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Longtime Dakkanaut






 Albino Squirrel wrote:
The Space Wolves? Evidently the guys in the studio now don't understand the setting very well if the Space Wolves are the good guys.


This isn't a recent thing.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut





 Just Tony wrote:
Any time I see someone use the word "interesting" in discussions like this I go gloss-eyed. It's no different than the people lauding the concept of corrupt Autobots that are every bit as bad if not worse than the Decepticons. Everyone set to amoral bastard is far less interesting than the thought of someone holding their moral/ethical/piety ground against all odds. It's why Superman and Captain America are such great characters but edgelord tryhards find them "dull", "boring", or "not interesting".

A lot of people find Superman and Captain America boring and not interesting because of stupid writing. A character that was really good and that powerful and wanted to do common good wouldn't bother with punching shoplifters, they would go directly for ultra-rich and corrupt parts of the government. Funnily enough, Superman being amoral bastard is the only way to reconcile why he punches someone who stole bread to feed his starving kids, not ultra rich donkey-cave who put this man (and 500 others) out of work because they dared to ask for a raise to their starving wages.

 Platuan4th wrote:
As for there not being a "good" guy in either system, that's patently untrue. The 40K studio workers have stated time and again that the Space Wolves are viewed in the studio as the actual good guys and heroes of the setting.

Which is hilariously stupid because SW are barbarian donkey-caves who rank among top 10 chapters most harmful to the Imperium, and that's even without considering the harm they did by demolishing Librarius project with their idiotic hypocrisy (ensuring loyalists had nothing to counter Horus and co) and kicking one of the most loyal primarchs to Chaos side...
   
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Germany

 Irbis wrote:


 Platuan4th wrote:
As for there not being a "good" guy in either system, that's patently untrue. The 40K studio workers have stated time and again that the Space Wolves are viewed in the studio as the actual good guys and heroes of the setting.

Which is hilariously stupid because SW are barbarian donkey-caves who rank among top 10 chapters most harmful to the Imperium, and that's even without considering the harm they did by demolishing Librarius project with their idiotic hypocrisy (ensuring loyalists had nothing to counter Horus and co) and kicking one of the most loyal primarchs to Chaos side...


Clearly, they're not fans of Psykers.

"Tabletop games are the only setting when a body is made more horrifying for NOT being chopped into smaller pieces."
- Jiado 
   
Made in us
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Biloxi, MS USA

 Irbis wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:
As for there not being a "good" guy in either system, that's patently untrue. The 40K studio workers have stated time and again that the Space Wolves are viewed in the studio as the actual good guys and heroes of the setting.

Which is hilariously stupid because SW are barbarian donkey-caves who rank among top 10 chapters most harmful to the Imperium, and that's even without considering the harm they did by demolishing Librarius project with their idiotic hypocrisy (ensuring loyalists had nothing to counter Horus and co) and kicking one of the most loyal primarchs to Chaos side...


Which NOT a thing the studio did, that was something the Black Library writers for Heresy came up with. The studio constantly has the Space Wolves confronting other parts of the Imperium, especially the Inquisition, for immoral stuff like wiping out the entirety of Armageddon's population after the First War for Armageddon. Jervis Johnson himself held them up for several editions as THE paragons of justice in the setting well before Ward's "spiritual liege" stuff. There's a massive dichotomy between how the studio writes them and how the heresy writers try to plunge them into being just as terrible as everyone else. It's literally the very thing Just Tony is complaining about.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/18 12:08:23


You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie
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Made in es
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Vigo. Spain.

Is very easy to see how GW writters are biased in favour of Space Wolves because most Space Wolves fans are just as biased.

People complains about ultramarines but space wolves are just as bad. Thats why I like dark angels, at least they are a bunch of hypocrites but nobody tries to negate it.

For good space marines, I'll always prefeer my salamanders. GW doesn't writtes that much about them, and thats keeps them pure.



AllSeeingSkink wrote:
 His Master's Voice wrote:
 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

Which makes it a wonder why they'll still around


Bretonnia is relatively sheltered. Some orcs, some undead, some beastmen, maybe a Norscan/DE raid - none of those things are a serious existential threat.


More than anything, WHFB was never really supposed to be a realistic setting, lol.

Bretonnia gave you one thing and Empire another, no need to mix them just because in the real world guns would have replaced archers.


Exactly. When a fantasy setting comes out theres always the "why is nobody using guns when this X faction allready mass produces them?". One can make some reasons for why not everybody uses guns. We all know in the real world theres no excuse, the moment your opponent has guns and you don't, or you make everything possible to have them too or you are screwed. But thats a completely different setting than most people want to enjoy.
If I want a barbaric orc with a axe fighting a line of dwarfs with guns I can shut off my brain and imagine it to be a reasonable fight scenario and that an ork can survive a couple of gun shots even when I know one is enough to kill an elephant.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/18 12:46:05


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in us
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Biloxi, MS USA

 Galas wrote:
Is very easy to see how GW writters are biased in favour of Space Wolves because most Space Wolves fans are just as biased.



As someone who isn't a Space Wolves fan(DA AND Sons player), it's even easier when the head of the studio at the time says multiple times in White Dwarf: "The Space Wolves are the only good guys in the setting."

You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie
The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was 
   
Made in es
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Vigo. Spain.

As good as super soldiers of a genocidal and xenophobic empire that they support even if sometimes they go agaisnt some of the more radical elements if it affects them personally can be, yeah.

I mean, for Warcraft Writters Sylvannas is morally gray. For everyone else shes a clear villain. Some times a writter can't see past his own mental image and loses the whole picture because it doesnt matter that you as the writter know all the reasons for why a character or group does that, everyone is justified and the good guy of his own story.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in au
Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf





 Galas wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
 His Master's Voice wrote:
 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

Which makes it a wonder why they'll still around


Bretonnia is relatively sheltered. Some orcs, some undead, some beastmen, maybe a Norscan/DE raid - none of those things are a serious existential threat.


More than anything, WHFB was never really supposed to be a realistic setting, lol.

Bretonnia gave you one thing and Empire another, no need to mix them just because in the real world guns would have replaced archers.


Exactly. When a fantasy setting comes out theres always the "why is nobody using guns when this X faction allready mass produces them?". One can make some reasons for why not everybody uses guns. We all know in the real world theres no excuse, the moment your opponent has guns and you don't, or you make everything possible to have them too or you are screwed. But thats a completely different setting than most people want to enjoy.
If I want a barbaric orc with a axe fighting a line of dwarfs with guns I can shut off my brain and imagine it to be a reasonable fight scenario and that an ork can survive a couple of gun shots even when I know one is enough to kill an elephant.


To be fair to more primitive weapons, there was a transition period with guns even in the real world. Technology moves so fast these days that we sometimes forget how slow it used to move. I'm not an expert in the field at all, but my understanding was that early guns were inaccurate, short ranged, slow to fire, in some cases could still be stopped by good quality armour and in the early days part of the transition to guns had more to do with training than battlefield ability (easier to train someone to use a gun than a bow, sword, etc). I believe in Asia there was a period of many hundreds of years where bows were still used after firearms were introduced, in spite of bows being quite difficult and time consuming to manufacture.

But yeah, either way, the point in WHFB was more about having a couple of different flavours of humans to play with rather than anything to do with historical factors or realism.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/18 13:34:29


 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




Germany

The fact most 40k Writers are not particularly good at their job surely helps.

"Tabletop games are the only setting when a body is made more horrifying for NOT being chopped into smaller pieces."
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Made in gb
Mighty Vampire Count






UK

There are plenty of grey areas and people in Warhammer which is another reason I like.

There are also a few completely evil people - can anyone think of anything good about Belakor or Archeon - plus the Skaven - a race of horrible, self serving, back stabbing creatures that (thus Far) have escaped the seeming need for so called evil races in many fantasy and sci-fi races to have "the exception good guy" which becomes the norm.

I love Skaven they are such great bad guys and fun to read about.

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AllSeeingSkink wrote:
 His Master's Voice wrote:
 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

Which makes it a wonder why they'll still around


Bretonnia is relatively sheltered. Some orcs, some undead, some beastmen, maybe a Norscan/DE raid - none of those things are a serious existential threat.


More than anything, WHFB was never really supposed to be a realistic setting, lol.

Bretonnia gave you one thing and Empire another, no need to mix them just because in the real world guns would have replaced archers.


Part of the Stillmania-ing of the Warhammer setting. For the first half of WFB 4th ed. they had Bill King punching up their fluff and those early army books are a masterclass in how to create background for a game world that everyone working in tabletop games should study. Combined with the WFRP rulebook and the first half of The Enemy Within campaign, they had a fantasy world ready to compete with Lord of the Rings. Then for whatever reason they decided they wanted all their background to be straight hack work, and Bretonnians become a Monty Python sketch.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





More new Kislev stuff shown in a Total War: WH3 trailer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bxe4C2kX_mU

Magical ice sled towed by bears, filled with handgunners.

Large Ice-Leopard

Kislev Handgunners

Guys with armour and shields + Axes or with large Maces

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/18 19:17:00


 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




Germany

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
More new Kislev stuff shown in a Total War: WH3 trailer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bxe4C2kX_mU

Magical ice sled towed by bears, filled with handgunners.

Large Ice-Leopard

Kislev Handgunners


......

We know.
We've been arguing about them non-stop for the past 3 or so pages.

"Tabletop games are the only setting when a body is made more horrifying for NOT being chopped into smaller pieces."
- Jiado 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
 Mentlegen324 wrote:
More new Kislev stuff shown in a Total War: WH3 trailer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bxe4C2kX_mU

Magical ice sled towed by bears, filled with handgunners.

Large Ice-Leopard

Kislev Handgunners


......

We know.
We've been arguing about them non-stop for the past 3 or so pages.


Unless I've missed something, you've been talking about a new trailer that was released only a few hours ago for the past few days? This isn't the same as the gameplay reveal trailer posted a few pages back. These are more new units, not the cannon-sled and ice bear already discussed.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/18 19:22:46


 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




Germany

Well then pardon me for i am bloody stupid and partially blind.

"Tabletop games are the only setting when a body is made more horrifying for NOT being chopped into smaller pieces."
- Jiado 
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

I like the sleds. The ice there doesnt move like with the canon, it looks more like a normal sled.

And the leopard looks like some kind of hero option?


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Galas wrote:
I like the sleds. The ice there doesnt move like with the canon, it looks more like a normal sled.

And the leopard looks like some kind of hero option?



The Leopard at least indicates that the flanderization that was talked about a few pages back isn't quite the case, they haven't gone "Kislev is just bears and Ice" and made everything new involve one of the two (or a combination).

The sled does look better when the ice doesn't move/change, albeit It would have been far better if it was just a flat slab like the concept art.
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




anti-grav sleds, neat! That being said, the streltsy look good.
   
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life.

 Galas wrote:
I like the sleds. The ice there doesnt move like with the canon, it looks more like a normal sled.

And the leopard looks like some kind of hero option?



In game terms, it is a single entity unit. Which heroes are as well, but they have a bit more going on. This is roughly equivalent to something like an ancient salamander.

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Annandale, VA

AllSeeingSkink wrote:Bretonnia gave you one thing and Empire another, no need to mix them just because in the real world guns would have replaced archers.

Galas wrote:Exactly. When a fantasy setting comes out theres always the "why is nobody using guns when this X faction allready mass produces them?". One can make some reasons for why not everybody uses guns. We all know in the real world theres no excuse, the moment your opponent has guns and you don't, or you make everything possible to have them too or you are screwed.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:To be fair to more primitive weapons, there was a transition period with guns even in the real world. Technology moves so fast these days that we sometimes forget how slow it used to move.


Guns coexisted with bows in European use for several hundred years. Italian arquebusiers were decisive at Cerignola in 1503, while the Royalist English were fielding longbowmen as late as 1642.

It's really not that big a stretch to have the feudal peasantry wielding bows while their Germanic cousins next door have guns, especially since...

AllSeeingSkink wrote:I'm not an expert in the field at all, but my understanding was that early guns were inaccurate, short ranged, slow to fire, in some cases could still be stopped by good quality armour and in the early days part of the transition to guns had more to do with training than battlefield ability (easier to train someone to use a gun than a bow, sword, etc). I believe in Asia there was a period of many hundreds of years where bows were still used after firearms were introduced, in spite of bows being quite difficult and time consuming to manufacture.


...contrary to pop history, firearms rapidly became more effective than bows, but were expensive, logistically complicated, and required extensive training to use effectively. Meanwhile bows were comparatively cheap, and peasants already accustomed to using them for hunting and sport had requisite training. I've got a big ol' rant on the subject here.

Basically bows were primarily employed by peasants drafted into militia levies, while the cost and training requirements of guns and crossbows limited their use to professional mercenaries and subsequently standing armies. So it's quite fitting that Bretonnia would use bows, and the Empire would use guns, and these could coexist indefinitely thanks to Bretonnia's social structure. It's not as anachronistic as it seems.

   
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West Michigan, deep in Whitebread, USA

I agree exactly. The Empire would have to spend MUCH more capital and support resources to field an army equipped like they prefer, while Bretonnians can just call up a peasant levy and have them use their hunting tools.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/19 01:52:59




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