Gasp! Who'd have thunk UAVs are vulnerable!

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**Kanluwen**

BBC wrote:Insurgents in Iraq have hacked into live video feeds from unmanned American drone aircraft, US media reports say.

Shia fighters are said to have used off-the-shelf software programs such as SkyGrabber to capture the footage.
The hacking was possible because the remotely flown planes have an unprotected communications link.
Obtaining such video feeds could provide insurgents with information about sites the military might be planning to target.
The breach of the Pentagon surveillance system's security is said to have come to light when footage shot by a Predator drone was found on the laptop of an apprehended Iraqi insurgent.

A senior Pentagon official is quoted as saying that although militants were able to view the video, there was no evidence that they were able to jam electronic signals from the aircraft or take control of them.

The unnamed official said the US defence department had addressed the issue by working to encrypt all video feeds provided by drones in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Predator drones can fly for several hours, remotely controlled by pilots thousands of miles away. The aircraft can carry out surveillance and attack targets with on-board missiles.

Pentagon spokesman Bryan Whitman said the US military continually evaluated the technologies it used and quickly corrected any potential problems it discovered.

"There's potential vulnerabilities in all of our systems," he said.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8419147.stm (source)

Thoughts? Comments?

Personally, I'd think the US could use this as a fantastic opportunity.
Flood the skies with drones, let the gits get all excited about them "knowing" where we're gonna hit.
And then ensure that we can backtrack where the access is coming from. Raid the watchers while they're watching!

Or use helicopters for the strikes. Either/or.

**Empchild**

Problem with that is this makes it easier for the insurgents to know where we're about to hit, and thus hide. It also can show them postions of some of out troops, as well as communications being sent between units. Tactically this is as bad if not worse as when the allies broke the enigma code from the germans.

**Wrexasaur**

I read this earlier, and all I thought about was if the U.S. military saw this coming... I certainly hope they did.

Tactically this is as bad if not worse as when the allies broke the enigma code from thegermans.

I would hardly consider it that bad, after all, there has to be a way to A.) stop them from doing it somehow, or B.) sending them false information; thus herding them somewhat.

Maybe you could just constantly barrage them with information, using satellites, I dunno. WAIT!!! Send them SPAM in massive quantities, crushing their tiny minds under the urge to enlarge their manhood. PERFECTO!

**dogma**

Or just encrypt the communications link, which really should have been done from the start.

Edit: Its not quite as bad as the issue with the Enigma machine, as we know they've got access to the feed. Now, if they could co-opt, or scramble, the control system, that would be very bad.

**Kanluwen**

Empchild wrote:Problem with that is this makes it easier for the insurgents to know where we're about to hit, and thus hide. It also can show them postions of some of out troops, as well as communications being sent between units. Tactically this is as bad if not worse as when the allies broke the enigma code from the germans.

Hence the beauty of flooding the skies with UAVs and then backtracking the actual "hack" to its source!

I mean really. They can THINK they know where we're going to hit. They can THINK they can hide from the eyes in the skies.

That's when we just y'know...walk up and nail 'em

And they also stated that the communications being sent between units and positions of troops, etc are on a completely different system than UAVs, and far more heavily encrypted.

**Orkeosaurus**

Also, we're not fighting the United States and the Soviet Union.

**Kanluwen**

dogma wrote:Or just encrypt the communications link, which really should have been done from the start.

Edit: Its not quite as bad as the issue with the Enigma machine, as we know they've got access to the feed. Now, if they could co-opt, or scramble, the control system, that would be very bad.

That does bring up an interesting point.

Why aren't UAV uplinks encrypted? Is it a programming issue, issue with field equipment, or what?

**Wrexasaur**

Maybe the U.S. military is already using that as a tactical advantage. They have been relatively 'lucky' on many occasions with their bombing recently.

If you can make the enemy think they know what you think, then you can watch how they try and use that to their advantage. Map out who is likely to be where and what not. It has to be pretty difficult for the terrorist to relocate all the time, and that may also be another tactical advantage due to this. Keep them on their toes, I say!

**Kanluwen**

But that means military intelligence did something intelligent...

DOES NOT COMPUTE!

**dogma**

Kanluwen wrote:
That does bring up an interesting point.

Why aren't UAV uplinks encrypted? Is it a programming issue, issue with field equipment, or what?

Admittedly, they may be encrypted. Its possible that 'unprotected' refers to the wireless nature of the link, though I doubt it.

Anyway, if they aren't encrypted its probably related to the control lag that comes from adding an additional translation step into the communication link.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wrexasaur wrote:Maybe the U.S. military is already using that as a tactical advantage. They have been relatively 'lucky' on many occasions with their bombing recently.

If you can make the enemy think they know what you think, then you can watch how they try and use that to their advantage. Map out who is likely to be where and what not. It has to be pretty difficult for the terrorist to relocate all the time, and that may also be another tactical advantage due to this. Keep them on their toes, I say!

It is possible that selected (unarmed) Predator drones are deliberately left unencrypted in order to give the targets a false sense of security. This is the sort of thing which would reamin undisclosed.

**Altered_Soul**

At first, I was shocked.

Then I read they were unencrypted.

Then I did a facepalm.

Sometimes the stupidest things really are that simple.

**Orkeosaurus**

dogma wrote:

Wrexasaur wrote:Maybe the U.S. military is already using that as a tactical advantage. They have been relatively 'lucky' on many occasions with their bombing recently.

If you can make the enemy think they know what you think, then you can watch how they try and use that to their advantage. Map out who is likely to be where and what not. It has to be pretty difficult for the terrorist to relocate all the time, and that may also be another tactical advantage due to this. Keep them on their toes, I say!

It is possible that selected (unarmed) Predator drones are deliberately left unencrypted in order to give the targets a false sense of security. This is the sort of thing which would reamin undisclosed.

Be quiet you guys, there might be terrorists on Dakka.

**Empchild**

Ok being signal I will try and explain some of this to everyone. The data streams are encrypted yet their is only one system in the army that cannot be jammed or hacked. It's public info so go look it up. If they can break into a UAV that means tehy can get control of a predator WHICH carries one hellfire missle that would feth our world up pretty damn bad. Those missles can take out a building no problem.

**ShumaGorath**

They've known about the vulnerability since the 90's and simply didn't bother to encrypt their satellite video channels because they didn't think the insurgents were "smart" enough to figure it out. Chalk another one up to jingoistic failures in planning. Keep in mind they didn't "Take over" anything, they just used an off the shelf program to receive unencrypted satellite video feeds to their hard drives. You can do it at home.

Ok being signal I will try and explain some of this to everyone. The data streams are encrypted yet their is only one system in the army that cannot be jammed or hacked. It's public info so go look it up. If they can break into a UAV that means tehy can get control of a predator WHICH carries one hellfire missle that would feth our world up pretty damn bad. Those missles can take out a building no problem.

The data streams are not fully encrypted. Hence this issue. Also they do not have the logistical ability to take over a predator drone as that would require a control suite similar to the one used to control them in the U.S., the predator is not a user friendly device, it's not something you can drive with your iphone. Taking one over and recording some unencrypted video that is constantly being sent to them are too totally different things. Thats like saying getting free cable means you can chose what shows fox puts on.

**Empchild**

ShumaGorath wrote:They've known about the vulnerability since the 90's and simply didn't bother to encrypt their satellite video channels because they didn't think the insurgents were "smart" enough to figure it out. Chalk another one up to jingoistic failures in planning.

Ok being signal I will try and explain some of this to everyone. The data streams are encrypted yet their is only one system in the army that cannot be jammed or hacked. It's public info so go look it up. If they can break into a UAV that means tehy can get control of a predator WHICH carries one hellfire missle that would feth our world up pretty damn bad. Those missles can take out a building no problem.

The data streams are not fully encrypted. Hence this issue. Also they do not have the logistical ability to take over a predator drone as that would require a control suite similar to the one used to control them in the U.S., the predator is not a user friendly device, it's not something you can drive with your iphone.

I never said you could drive it from your Iphone. Heres the deal people(in general not just single anyone out) the insurgents are not some backwater hillbillies we are fighting. some of these people are funded by some very rich people, and they know tech. Any system given time really with a data encryption can be hacked it just takes time. What a system needs to do is be able to do a freq hop which believe me is or well was next toimpossible to sinq up with without the data keys from certain U.S equip. If they have this stuff it means they stole it from somewhere they really shouldnt have been and that scares the crap out of me. On this I am an expert and trust me this is bad joojoo!

**generalgrog**

What they should do is have two channels, one encrypted and and one not. The unencrypted channel is a recording of somewhere else that the drone is not flying. This lets the insurgents think it's safe, until the predator shows up on their doorstep/cave entrance.

GG

**ShumaGorath**

I never said you could drive it from your Iphone. Heres the deal people(in general not just single anyone out) the insurgents are not some backwater hillbillies we are fighting. some of these people are funded by some very rich people, and they know tech.

You didn't say that, but you are implying that they are decrypting military data channels, which are changed regularly, and aren't the easiest things to break. Thats something that while not impossible, is far from something they have ever done.

Any system given time really with a data encryption can be hacked it just takes time. What a system needs to do is be able to do a freq hop which believe me is or well was next toimpossible to sinq up with without the data keys from certain U.S equip. If they have this stuff it means they stole it from somewhere they really shouldnt have been and that scares the crap out of me.

Yes, realtime dynamic encryption jumbling is difficult to sync with multiple users over any sort of system with significant time lag, we know. That has nothing to do with this situation. Read what actually happened, look into the article, what you think happened is far from the truth.

On this I am an expert and trust me this is bad joojoo!

You don't sound like an expert to me.

**dogma**

Another story.

And another.

Unencrypted according to both sources. That doesn't surprise me. The Pentagon has been slow to move on cyber warfare; especially with respect to in-theatre operations.

**Altered_Soul**

Yeah, we had a discussion with a DARPA speaker in school a few years back. Simply said, he took the position of "its so obvious that it will be fixed."

Ten bucks some bureaucracy got in the way. I just can't fathom that the engineers specced it this way. beaurocracy

Side note: I find it hilarious that whenever I mis-type bureaucracy, my spell check options are always "plutocracy", "meritocracy", and "gerimatocracy" (what the feth?)?

**BluntmanDC**

, what i find really annoying is that on channel four or the bbc there is every so often a report about military transport or armour, we can get al jezera, they can get our tv programmes in the day of the internet all they are doing is giving the militaries weaknesses to the enemy. there is a point were they should go 'is this gonna get 10 more soldiers killed cos the insergents now what to target' and then decide not to show it. the military have been fighting wars for a while they don't need aload of people with no idea of the world a soldier lives in during a war whining to the government. just my opinion

**Cannerus_The_Unbearable**

They should uploaded some video to Youtube just to rub it in. Maybe do some funny voice-overs making fun of Western culture.

**warpcrafter**

Orkeosaurus wrote:
dogma wrote:

Wrexasaur wrote:Maybe the U.S. military is already using that as a tactical advantage. They have been relatively 'lucky' on many occasions with their bombing recently.

If you can make the enemy think they know what you think, then you can watch how they try and use that to their advantage. Map out who is likely to be where and what not. It has to be pretty difficult for the terrorist to relocate all the time, and that may also be another tactical advantage due to this. Keep them on their toes, I say!

It is possible that selected (unarmed) Predator drones are deliberately left unencrypted in order to give the targets a false sense of security. This is the sort of thing which would reamin undisclosed.
Be quiet you guys, there might be terrorists on Dakka.

Orkeo, you know damned well that us Dakkaites only terrorize each other!

**ChaosDave**

Empchild wrote:Problem with that is this makes it easier for the insurgents to know where we're about to hit, and thus hide. It also can show them postions of some of out troops, as well as communications being sent between units. Tactically this is as bad if not worse as when the allies broke the enigma code from the germans.

I'm thinking someone forgot to encrypt the video output. A small upgrade should fix this issue especially if they use military grade encryption.

**Empchild**

Alright was out grocery chopping on base. As usual SHUMA the almighty is here to try and discredit me, shuma I honestly care less what you think, but signal is my field believe what you want. Army UHF, and EHF's are for better lack of a term mmmm stupid. The military takes something tht in the normal world would be cheap and effective, and twists it. Don't believe me ask any service member. OO and shuma on matters of military equip just don't chime in please. All you are trying to do is start an arguement to which their really is no point. Im sure you'll put something negative from all this and good for you glad you do honestly, but for once I am not going to respond to you after this.

**VermGho5t**

I don't think you guys are reading the article thoroughly. The one I read had an official state that they tried to run the uplinks encrypted but due to real-time issues, the lag time was too great, so they opted to just leave the transmission of data how it is. The person did go on to state that the detection issue had been foreseen and 'taken care of'. Whatever that means.

**OverbossGhurzubMoga**

Wrexasaur wrote:
WAIT!!! Send them SPAM in massive quantities, crushing their tiny minds under the urge to enlarge their manhood. PERFECTO!

So your plan to destroy the terrorists is to unleash /b/ on them?

Sir, I am disgusted by this idea...and slightly aroused.

**tblock1984**

OverbossGhurzubMoga wrote:
Wrexasaur wrote:
WAIT!!! Send them SPAM in massive quantities, crushing their tiny minds under the urge to enlarge their manhood. PERFECTO!

So your plan to destroy the terrorists is to unleash /b/ on them?

Sir, I am disgusted by this idea...and slightly aroused.

+

=

**SagesStone**

Problem with using it as a trick is that now that the information has been released to the public they probably know that the US army knows now. Otherwise it would have been a really good idea.

**Albatross**

@Empchild - I thought you worked in Ammunition.

**mattyrm**

The Iranians/Pakistanis equip the jinglies, and they get assistance from further afield, Islam is more unifying than any form of national pride bollocks. Hence we get British and American born terrorists. I think you add all of that up and its fair to say that they arent half as daft as people like to think, and will have equipment and tech support from all over the place.

I doubt they would be able to do anything that would massively affect our operations (arent they awesome btw? Radio controlled death?

) but still.. we need to sort this gak out.