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I had two games of Warhammer Fantasy Battle today. The first game begins with some unexplainable luck with (my HE vs his WE) my mage not hitting anything and nothing working out. He destroys my entire army expect the block of White Lions. They stay in and in the end win me the game by killing their General, Wild Riders, Wardancers and two units of Dryads!
He was okay with this, he just mumbled something like "ASF makes your army overpowered...".
Then we had another game, in which the flavour goes into my way. My only lvl 2 wizard destroys a unit of Wardancers, half of Dryad unit and Wild Riders in tow magic phases (thanks to Silver Wand + Banner of Sorcery). He stops the game on turn 3 beginning. "There is no sense in playing this game, your book is so overpowered that I don't want to play you anymore".
What kind of a player ALWAYS blames bad games with overpowered/underpowered army books? Everybody knows that if you're good enough, you can always win (not including DoC of course).
I want to hear your opinion on players who always blame their opponents army books of their defeat.

Note that the player in question is normally very nice, anti-TFG.

nyyman wrote:Everybody knows that if you're good enough, you can always win (not including DoC of course).

Ask yourself, because after all that, you end your argument with that statement.

Tbh the only people ive ever really played against are my freinds and a guy who works at my GW ^^.

what i find is that when my freinds are losing and im winning i find its easier to give them an advantage so they might be able to win against the odds. it means it avoids the whole "its not fair that tyranids are so over powered, they shouldnt be aloud to have that, it makes them always win etc etc etc" because instead theyll be saying " i may of lost but when you moved your hive tyrant into the open, and i managed to slay it with a suicidal charge from my conscripts, it was awsome!"
or "in the end we were pretty even matched, i mean in the last turn i took out your carnifex AND your broodlord." it works every time and so what if i dont get that win when you have 90% of your army still alive at the end of the game? so what if i may do stuff toh elp them claw back a draw. its jsut a game and i find it means i never get the "damn my army sucks/ Damn your army is really OP" speach

Honestly a player who gripes about the strength of a book during a game is just a bad player. You can be disapointed(such as I) about taking out a lot of the fluffy armies in the chaos codex, but it is just that. Things are differnet they evolve, wow who'd funk it right. I have seen people rape with DH, and DE and those books are so far out of date it's not even funny. In the end it comes down to two things: how good is the player, and how good will my dice role. Because I can have the best damn army in the world, but if I roll tons of ones and two's then no strat will save my armies doom.

P.S tell him SUck it up buttercup then pimp slap him!!

Though it may be possible to win no matter what if you're good enough, that doesn't mean it's fun fighting an up hill battle the whole time. If you feel like yer fighting yer hardest just to try and get even let alone win, it can be really disheartening.

And by the sounds of it, he should have won the first game but he got trounced by an uber unit. When you have a huge advantage (General, wild riders, wardancers and 2 units of dryads) and you can't take down 1 unit, something is wrong! (Apologies to you and your opponent but either some huge luck was involved, they are stupid, or, heaven forbid, your unit overpowered all of them)

As for your second game, I think magic is OP across the game (except for a couple races where lore restrictions actually keep magic tame) I don't know how big a game it was, but if wardancers, wild riders and 2 dryads couldn't take out your 1 unit of white lions... Well, if he stepped back and looked at it and honestly didn't think he could do it anymore, I haven't no problem with conceding. (I'm saying conceding, not blaming it on the book, that's a little different)

So now to actually answer your question: I'm 50/50. I think it takes an honest person to admit that their army book is stronger than others and that it is a factor when they win. Other hand, I think you are demeaning what work the player did to make a win happen when you blame the book. In your story, I honestly think that he had every right to mumble and I think you making a story out of it is a little bragging b/c it comes more across as validating him rather than making your point.

Sometimes its worth handicapping yourself to make the game more enjoyable. I've heard white lions are really strong, and it seems like they did you well, try playing him again without them maybe. Give him a chance to get used to ASF and even give pointers/warnings on how to beat you. Maybe its always possible to overcome the differences in army books if you are an amazing general, but not everyone is an Alexander, so give them a hand and you BOTH have fun when the powergaming is removed from a friendly game.

I loves te ramble on and on

nyyman wrote:
Note that the player in question is normally very nice, anti-TFG.

anti-TFG people are often a form of TFG's themselves...See also Casual Gaming Mafia.

I hate when people whine when I beat them in a fair game. It's not that hard, just play better. The worst was when I was playing against a TK player, and I first turn charged his King with a KoS and killed it without taking a wound. He got so whiny about being tabled and how having to pass 2 Ld tests at 6 to hit back was "overpowered", I was so glad when he walked out of the store.

Hah yeah i have experienced this a few times. especially with the new imperial guard codex. When i played my friend and would win, he would start to complain and whine about how he is going to wrtie to gamesworkshop because they have clearly overpowered the codex, even when he is using the latest edition of the codex.

Sometimes it drives me mental

To all who wonder why the White Lion unit didn't get kicked hard, it had a BSB and General too. Just to note.
As people have said, it's good to admit that your army book is maybe the top tier, but it still isn't fair that a player who has played over 4 years with Wood Elfs faces ONCE a high elf player who was playing his 4th game with helfs (me), just doesn't want to play against a army just because he thinks its too good. I have to admit, helfs are better than welfs, but that isn't the point. What would you feel if your opponent rage quited on 2nd turn just beacause you got lucky and got 3 spells through against a player who hasn't got any kind of magic defense in his list?

I never lost because of a bad book (CSM)

I switched to Daemons because of said bad book.

Anyone wanna play Planetstrike?

Maybe try to switch armies for one or two games?

Unless you do not want others to touch and play with your miniatures this can sometimes be a solution, because if you still beat him while he plays your army and you play his, then he can not use the overpowered book excuse any more.

eimaj wrote:

nyyman wrote:Everybody knows that if you're good enough, you can always win (not including DoC of course).

Ask yourself, because after all that, you end your argument with that statement.

x2

"There is no spoon" - matrix quote

In pretty much EVERY game..there are some things that are just stronger than others, but if you stop trying to just force things to be how you want them to be, and allow yourself to think outside the box, you will discover ways of getting around said obstacle, be it over, under, left, right, through, or completely just ignoring it....if you have built your army to be balanced there is always a way to tackle a situation that has come up... it may not be how you would PREFER to handle it, but if you allow yourself to change (there is no spoon, you bend, not the spoon!..you cant change what your opponent does, but you can limit his options giving you the advantage of knowing with a large amount of certainty what he/she will do before she does it gives you an edge! its pretty much a more complicated version of chess..think 4 - 5 turns ahead and it makes it much easier..unless they are doing the same, but thats when it gets fun ) then you'll discover how to handle the situation with whats available to you.

Kind of curious about the lack of archers in the WE army you mentioned. These are one of the strongest units in that army (S4 shots at short range, no to hit penalty after movement), particularly when fielded in multiple small units. If he's not fielding lots of archers, I would suggest that is where he is having problems. ASF is not very useful when you've just become a pin cushion.

Some books are stronger than others but no book is invincible. I don't play Fantasy and am going by only what people say about the Daemon armybook but I'm sure it's not invincible.

Sure it might be an uphill battle but to me that would make a win more satisfying than just walking my way to a win.

In WFB, Daemons aren't invincible, but it takes a lot more going wrong for them to lose...

The Daemon book isn't invincible, it's just few armies can counter it.

As for that game, I'm with Flashman on this one.

Wood Elves are pretty dependent on Archery, and it seems your opponent lacked them.

I'm glad that it appears to be true, not just overreaction.

I guess I find 40k to be a lot more balanced than Fantasy in that regard. I don't call any 5th edition (or 4th ed) codex overpowered. They have power builds but nothing impossible or near impossible to beat.

Thankfully 'Nids are getting brought into line with the current codeciies.

True, Fantasy in is a lull right now, at least until every army gets the new supah-charged codexes.


BTW do you remember what he was fielding?

@Fateweaver: It's not overreaction.

OTOH, all else (luck, skill, mission) being equal, Daemons are strong enough the Daemon player *should* win just about every single game against non-Daemons that aren't specifically metagamed against Daemons.

A n00b can take Daemons and play at par with much better players just on the strength of their army list, much like how point-and-click Brets did when that book first came out.

That's kind of a problem, because this tends to offend certain people's sensibilities about how particular battles with toy soldiers should be played for recreation.

Get an annoying gamer? Ask them "why do you play"?

This is an important question. Many people are competitive or just want to see their army win. This is a terrible reason to play unless at a Tourney with some sweet prizes. Even still, a professional attitude is required.

Everyone should play for the sake of fun. Win or loose it doesnt matter, nothing better then seeing your army run around the table, having a few laughs with your opponent. I always figured this was a game to socialize with like minded people. Not about winning.

If a person looses every game then hopefully they are taking in WHY they are loosing and amending their army list and tactics as they should. This is part of the fun.

Bring beer.

Well, if his army book is so under-powered compared to yours in his opinion, why does he not get a new fething army? lol.

In some cases it isnt much fun (TK's playing daemons) But its something you have to live with.

It surprises me how many people in this hobby are surprised by an armies power.

I mean if an army JUST gets a new armybook (like Tyranids do in a couple of weeks) I can see a non-Tyranid player being surprised by it's power but as it currently stands I know the strengths and weaknesses of every army out there, 4th and 5th ed. rules so I know what to expect when I see an opponent pulling Tau or Orks or SW's out of his case.

I'm not condoning theft but even if you don't want to buy the armybook/codex for every army there are ways to get them illegally or if you frequent a GW store just loiter there a few days a week reading the various army book rules until you know them front to back. So it's kind of shocking this guy the OP played didn't know what the OP's army was capable of.

On the subject of Fantasy it'd be fun but nobody in my group wants to expand outwards to another system and the nearest game store that has active gamers is 4 hours away. Not a feasible drive every weekend. That and there are about 4 armies I'd want to collect for Fantasy as I can't just decide on the one I like most.

Cryonicleech wrote:BTW do you remember what he was fielding?

Forgot to mention another of my arguments: He was fielding full Forest Spirit army (Wildriders, 3x Dryads, 2x Branchwraiths, Noble with Wildrider Kindred, Wardancers) which is definetly not the strongest army composition out there. He did it for fun purpose (I hope). But even though he knew that his army wouldn't beat me easily, he still insist that HEs were too overpowered. I'm gonna ask him do a REAL list and have a battle after that, he'll see that HEs are not unbeatable...

Howlingmoon wrote:I never lost because of a bad book (CSM)

I switched to Daemons because of said bad book.

Anyone wanna play Planetstrike?

After that FAQ that GW released for them, I think demons are too OP in planetstrike

Some armybooks are flat out better than others. Especially in fantasy.

That said, if you don't like your army's powerlevel switch armies, or games.



Edit: Oh I see you play High Elves. I find them annoying because the make getting the charge meaningless.

And this annoys my former playing buddy so much.

I enjoy making lists that I think work well together and then try them out on my friends. Each time I make a list I'm confident that it will win. And a Lot of the time I got thrashed.

Did I complain and blame them for having an Uber codex? Nope, the answer is simple, they are tactfully a better opponent than I, and the list I chose was not good enough to compete against his list. Simple.

I don't whine and gripe about the opponent, I learn from it and make a better list for next time. He was just a poor sportsman in that case and wasn't able to take that defeat with grace.

Not knowing him, he may not even be aware of the way he appeared

I liked that High Elves got ASF- it felt like they were substantially different from DE and WE that way. They're hardly an overpowered army by any length, and you weren't playing some sort of OTT list, so I think he's got no leg to stand on really.

Yesterday I played my first 3 games against DoC (I had been out of fantasy for a few years, just recently got back in). Wow, that is a badly designed book! My first game was with O&G, and I got destroyed. I killed one unit of horrors in the whole game I think. But that's to be expected really, O&G aren't the best list and I wasn't running an extremely fine tuned list. So I didn't complain. I beat the same player and list with my Dwarves in the next game, and that was a tense, exciting and fun game- we both enjoyed the hell out of it. I like it when wargames are like that. The next game he out played me pure and simple and beat me. With my Dwarves I feel like I have a chance but with my O&G I think I don't really. So I won't be bringing them against him again. But I don't understand not playing someone just because their list is hard. Surely it makes you a better player if you lose and then analyse your mistakes so you can improve? I certainly learned a lot about deployment in that third game, and if I hadn't been willing to play him I'd be worse off for it.

What is ASF? Can you eat it?



Ghidorah