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Well, maybe.

After the Great Purge of 09 - Others smarter than me have mentioned in a different thread that perhaps we could try actually communicating with GWS. Yes, I know that this has been tried before on an individual level. I'd like to see about doing it in a coordinated way as a community.

The way I see it, here are the steps we need to follow:

1.) Determine if this is even worth doing. Do we as a community even want to, as someone else put it, "Save GWS from themselves"? Rather then just swap to a different game.

2.) Determine as a group how much correspondence it would take to potentially make a statement, and aim for that much.

3.) Create a list of gripes. This should be short and easily read, with realistic goals. Issue perhaps would be: lower the price on plastic models (or stop creeping upwards), permit sites to create fan content if they carry a disclaimer, un-maul the LRB6, make a ruling on the deffrolla... I'm sure a few people have other ideas.

4.) Indicate that although this is not a boycott per se, our buying habits have been/will be influenced by their behavior towards the community at large.

5.) Determine the best target for this gripe-bomb. Jervis, perhaps?
Several people suggested Jervis is not the best target, and this should go to an executive.

6.) Actually write out and send paper letters, hopefully reaching the goal in stage 2.
Chimera_Calvin suggested handing the letters in, in person.


Is this worth pursuing? Has it been tried in the last, say, year?

Sounds like a good idea but don't just send it to Jervis. All that will come of that is a three page Standard Bearer reply to it about the good old days and how times change.

I agree with the sentiment even if I think the effort and potential result isn't worth it. Internet campaigns are a waste of time given GW's disdain for cyberspace. A flood of complaint letters might make them see sense if I didn't think that GW actually bother reading and inwardly digesting fan mail other than to send back a generic cut and paste response.

Maybe we can all organise a march on GW headquarters carrying placards and slogans? Mind you, it didnt do much good in preventing Mr Blair taking us to war over here so...

Better suited in the discussions board though eh ? ... go .. go .. go...

filbert wrote:Maybe we can all organise a march on GW headquarters carrying placards and slogans? Mind you, it didnt do much good in preventing Mr Blair taking us to war over here so...

It's all good until the Arbites show up

Well, it's not 40k based - a lot of the gripes are with BB's LRB and such. Unless I originally posted this in news, in which case - sorry, my bad.

And yes, internet campaigns are useless. This would have to end with actual letters and maybe phone calls.

Do not direct anything to Jervis Johnson, he is just an employee of GW and does not direct group business strategy. Its the CEO and board that directs the business.

If these issues directly affect the running and long term viability of the business then the board members and shareholder will take steps, either removing CEOS and board members and replacing them with others along with other options.

Board members, investors, fund managers and shareholders should be the target.

The onus will be on you guys to illustrate the negative impact on the business in all likelihood you would need some substantiated data to even get heard. A petition may be a good start.


EDIT:

Jervis may be a good idea as a point of contact for a letter writing campaign but don't expect a shift in policy he has to tow the company line.

I do genuinely feel that if GW were aware of how badly they are treating their fan base and damaging their long term future, then they would wake up and react sharpish. I am one of those people who think their actions are borne out of naivety and ignorance rather than any sort of intended malice. That being said, maybe a well written and substantiated letter or series of letters to the big cheeses at GW corporate HQ might do the business?

So - Mark Wells, Tom Kirby, those sorts of people perhaps for step 5?

I wouldn't bother complaining about prices, no one likes paying more for something. You have to be specific in your complain not just "Stop bashing the fans, end codex creep and while you're at it stop raising prices". Your main concern will be lost in a generic rant.

The thing that has pissed a lot of people off is the aggressive manner in which GW have attacked fan sites and shown a total lack of respect for the people who buy and support their older games. This is highlighted by the manner in which they let someone spend years writing a new Blood Bowl Rulebook for them only to cut it about when they recieved it and remove the writing credits page, which is contemptible. They also said that the only official version was version 1 that came in the original box game and which doesn't contain the rules for many of the figures available on their site.

Some of the actions they have taken against fans sites are legally legitimate. They may be unnecessary and unpleasant, but they are legit. Others are not so, and appear to be done through ignorance or bullying. Think about your examples carefully, because if you merely cite Board Game Geek you will simply find that GW Legal will say that they were hosting copyrighted material and your letter will go in the bin.

The main problem is that while 'we' (being the online gaming fraternity) all have a good idea of GW's problems and how to solve them, GW don't have to listen to us.

Now, that may seem like stating the b****ing obvious, but from GW's perspective, they believe veterans in general and forthright members of the online community in particular are a tiny minority of their customer base (and, therefore a tiny minority of their income).

The only way GW will listen to our views and take them seriously is if they believed that if all of us stopped spending money that their profitability would be under threat.

Unfortunately, they have two things going for them. One - hard as it is to admit, they may be right. If 90% plus of their income comes from people who don't care about specialist games, clear and concise rules and balanced games, why should they do the work required to keep 'us' happy? Two - they probably know that for all our qualms and irrespective of the merits of our arguments (or the methods we choose to put those arguments to GW) we will almost certainly feed our plasticrack habit from our usual supplier.


Now, all that being said, that does not mean that we shouldn't protest. What it does mean however is that our protest must take a form that will make GW take notice of. For my money the only thing that would actually work is a list of specific greivances, supported by a petition. Book a meeting with a senior exec and hand over the petition in person (get a photo of this if possible!) and let every member of the gaming press (limited as such a group is) know exactly what happened.

This kind of thing can work, but it needs doing with a sufficient level of flair and professionalism that would convince the board that its not just nerdrage!

my $0.02

Howard A Treesong wrote:The thing that has pissed a lot of people off is the aggressive manner in which GW have attacked fan sites and shown a total lack of respect for the people who buy and support their older games.

I agree, you have to be very specific in what you want to take action about. Taking down copyrighted material off websites (not the other, more aggressive C&Ds) and raising prices should be left completely out of it.

I also think, that although this thread may be to hash it out, if you really want to get the ball rolling on something like this, someone would have to really take point, get it organized, and make some executive decisions based on everyone's input. The majority of us will never be able to agree enough on the specifics to take action. But if you take something we can all agree on, like the excessive C&D storm (other than relating to copyrighted material) and the treatment of LRB6 for Blood Bowl, and then put it in a format that we can easily chip in to- say, a pre-addressed letter format that we could all download and send, maybe even with some of the text in there already- that's how you get something like this to happen.

So I'd use this to gather ideas, then make a new thread / website / etc to actually take action and do this thing.

Cheers,
Steve / RiTides

It's not worth it. Those that complain are just ignored as whingers.

Speak with your money if it bothers you that much.

I refer the honourable gentleman to the reply I gave some moments ago

/house-of-commons-speak

Chimera_Calvin wrote:I refer the honourable gentleman to the reply I gave some moments ago

/house-of-commons-speak

i read your coment. doesn't change the bottom line.

They. Just. Plain. Do. Not. Care.

If you don't agree 100% with what they're doing, you're not part of the target audience and can be dismissed.

The guys in charge of GW get their money whether you buy stuff from them or whether they run the company into the ground because they'll take a golden parachute when the IP gets sold off in Bankruptcy.

That surely is the argument though? Can an effective response by found?

Its very easy to say nothing we do makes a difference and I agree a lot of it doesn't. This discussion is about options for things that may work, hence I suggested something.

At least we can have the satisfaction of saying we tried to save something that has given most of us a great deal of fun over the years, however futile the end result may be.

I have one word for you: Interns.

This is where your complaint letters will stop in any company. They will put the complaint letters in a stack and send you a stock response letter:

"Thank you for contacting Games Workshop, Ltd. with your concerns. Your concerns will be forwarded to the approprate party in order to best facilitate in adressing your concerns. Again, thank you for being a loyal Games Workshop, Ltd. customer.

Rubber Stamp Signature
CEO, Games Workshop Ltd."

This is all you are going to get from a letter writing campaign to the company. As I stated in the ill fated and pointless attempt for a boycott that the company will not listen to customers or their letters unless they are positive comments or from a share holder.

Since the Games Workshop, Ltd. is a publicly traded company and complaints not from a government offical which can effect their business or a shareholder then all other communitcations will be ignored. This is because it is not cost effective for them to invest manhours into concerns that will not increase the profits of their shareholders, which are where the true reigns of power are located at within Games Workshop, Ltd.

So before you waste your money on postage and time writing letters you need to have something to back yourself up with something they care about since your $50 or $100 dollars you are going to spend mean not a damn thing in the big picture to the CEO and CFO. Now if every person that wrote in was a stockholder and put that into their letter that they are verifiable stockholder then their concerns will be adress.

So writing letters to a company is something you see on the news that grade schoolers do because it is a feel good, cute news story but it is not what an adult does. So, put your money where your mouth or pen is, grow up and buy some damn stock then you will be heard when you complain!

Well, one of the questions raised was "is this worth doing", so I definitely appreciate all the people stating this is a waste of time. Speaking for only myself, I have already started transitioning over to PP products, but have done so regretfully. I do love the mythos and the IP.

Becoming stockholders was an interesting tack I had not considered.

I understand where you are coming from, Pipboy101, but even from shareholders, corrrespondence will routinely be ignored (or at least fobbed off with the usual platitudes) unless their holding is significant.

What you need to do (unless you have sufficient funds to make a significant investment - I personally don't) is to find a way of attracting their attention that doesn't involve a few million quid.

Does anybody else have ideas in this direction?

well how much do gw shares cost, it we all chip in or something we could pool our shares and make a difference.

Another thing about a publicy traded company is that they already of short term and long term goals in place. Unless something major happens such as oil prices rise nearly over night to the point that making plastic and transportation become to expensive to produce, civil war, or a natural disaster on a scale that it would disrupt life all over the western world then GW, Ltd will not change their short/long term goal no matter what a non-stock holders do or say.

Even in the global economic downturn GW, Ltd. this year has turned the highest profit over the last 5 years for their share holders. So your letters are going to mean nothing.

255 pence each at the minute. I don't know how many shares the company has in total, though - if anyone could enlighten us as to what stake your £2.55 gets you?

Agreed, one of the reasons for my ongoing ire with GW is it's attitude towards it's customer base.

The actions we have been discussing here are indicative that, despite the good intentions of sending letters expressing dissatisfaction, the company does not place any value on those customers old enough to actually realise they're getting done over.

The company has been, over years now, moving away from the long term player and the 'hobby' as a whole and actively seeking to make it's self a 'fad' for kids to go through.

So, whilst I'd love to write a letter stating my problems with the behaviour I have found so reprehensible from GW lately, it would not be taken on board and is simply wasting my free time.

We are talking about a firm that shuts down it's own forums, that has no letters page in it's periodical (or catalogue as I now refer to WD), that issues C&D letters to it's own fanbase, that does not credit fan's hard work on anything 'they might steal!!1!' if they did.




One action is the only course. Cease your purchasing of GW items. Seek other companies products. Expand your gaming horizons.

filbert wrote:I do genuinely feel that if GW were aware of how badly they are treating their fan base and damaging their long term future, then they would wake up and react sharpish. I am one of those people who think their actions are borne out of naivety and ignorance

That is a real belly buster!!!

Is it April fools again already?

Even being a shareholder likely wont make much of a difference.

A poster here by the username of "Precinct Omega" (A damn fine modeler and long time Dakka member) is a shareholder and was invited to the GW shareholder meeting in either 2007 or 2008. IIRC, from what he said, GW didnt even take criticisms seriously from a person who owns enough stock to be invited to a shareholder meeting.

I could very well be mistaken on this, and welcome correction if I am mistaken.

I will attempt to find the thread and update this post with a link.

[edit]
Found the article:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/218542.page

I was mistaken about the shareholder feedback, but PO doesnt make many comments about feedback so... Perhaps I read the sister thread on warseer and thought that. Not sure but as it stands right now I was mistaken. Which is to say, the thread neither confirms nor disputes shareholders feedback being taken seriously.

It IS however, a very interesting read and I highly recommend taking a few minutes to absorb it.

GAMES WORKSHOP GRP (GAW.L)
22 Dec: 263.65 p 6.15 (2.39%)

That is not british pounds but pence.

It looks like it is approx $4.21 USD per stock.


To keezus: Buying and then returning product only hurts the LFGS owner and buying a gift card and returning does even less since nothing of physical value was traded. You might even lose out since alot of companies will charge a service fee to return a gift card.

Well, GW is just another for profit company. Seeing them as something else just because they sell hobby product can be charitably described as idealistic. If you want to alter their course, buy sufficient stock to get some voting options, whether it's on your own or collectively as a group. If you want to show your dissatisfaction, stop buying their product.

For better or for worse, GW is out to make money. The downside to it is that their decisions will be made largely toward what the board sees as increasing revenue. Game lines which do not produce a sizable or reliable return will be lightly supported at best. The upside is that so long as GW is profitable, we are much more likely to see the game continue on for years.

keezus wrote:

Howlingmoon wrote:Speak with your money if it bothers you that much.

Bah. Boycots are pointless. While they won't notice a boycot (as management never realizes that they loose sales due to customer disatisfaction), they WILL notice this:

Step 1. Buy as much GW product as you can before the end of a financial quarter - preferably in the $1000+ range. Christmas is a great time for this.
Step 2. GET A GIFT RECIEPT.
Step 3. Return all product purchased above (at a different location) at the start of the next quarter.
Step 4. Profit.

that does exactly... what?

All that will accomplish is that they'll change their return policy. They are NOT obligated to take returns if the item was not purchased at that particular store. They do so because the front line guys bend ovr backwards for customer service (often because they know how bad things are higher up the food chain.)

Seriously, all your short sighted "internet cooldude anarchist" idea accomplishes is to probably put some store guys out of work in January.

now, that said.

Quit being bad.

Pipboy101 wrote:

Even in the global economic downturn GW, Ltd. this year has turned the highest profit over the last 5 years for their share holders. So your letters are going to mean nothing.

No return on that profit to the shareholders though; GW didn't pay dividends. I'm thinking of selling; at least most of my other holdings pay dividends, heck citibank gave me .01 cents/share this year and they nearly went under.

So, GW doesn't care about shareholders either.