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Shas El
Missile, plasma, multi

Crisis team
missile, plasma, multi
Missile, plasma, multi
Missile, plasma, multi

Crisis team
missile, plasma, multi
missile, plasma, multi
missile, plasma, multi

Crisis team
missile, plasma, multi
missile, plasma, multi
missile, plasma, multi

Pathfinders x 8
-Fish + pod

Pathfinders x 8
-Fish + pod

Fire Warriors x6

Fire Warriors x 6

Kroot x 10 + 5 hounds

Broadside Team
team leader, ASS, HW Target lock, HW Drone Cont, +1 shield drone, + 1 shield drone
ASS
ASS

Hammer head
Rail gun, burst cannons, Dpod, multi, target lock

Hammer head
Rail gun, burst cannons, Dpod, multi, target lock

Sits at 1847 if my math serves me right..

Any and all thoughts appreciated (please if your going to say something positive or negative give reasonings why, not just some arbitrary statement thanks!

I'd be worried about getting your suits doubled out. I don't know what the meta is in your area but in mine there tend to be a lot of vindicators in dual lash lists instead of oblits, also against eldar they tend to field those t/l bright lances or DE raider spam has 8-16 dark lance shots a turn especially at those point levels.

I think you might do well to drop one set of suits to fill out your pathfinders and add in shield drones to all the other squads in addition to the marker drone. I haven't had a lot of experience playing tau yet but it seems any army that is prepared for nob bikers would be able to take down your suits pretty handily without some ablative 4+ invulnerable saves.

*edit*

He means weapons double your toughness instant killing a crisis suit. Meaning your wound allocation shenanigans are done properly, but may mean squat if you are shot with the right guns.

*edit*

Well if you run into lash they pull you out of cover and then pie plate you with s10 ap 1 or s 8 ap3 while their mobile meltas are headed for the vehicles. At least that's what I've run into. Also things like termicide can make for a bad day for your suits if they scatter away from a vehicle.

I'm just saying some strong chaos lists will give you trouble, especially if they either get first turn or reserve everything to deny you first shot at their vehicles.

Same is true for very fast eldar, 2 squads of fire dragons in WS with star engines can get 36' across the board in 1 turn and even if you bring down the serpent the dragons will have a field day with anything close to them.

Not to say they wouldn't be tough lists for you to go up against no matter what, just saying that without the shield drones I think suits are much more vulnerable to high str low AP weapons that have ways of either getting you out of cover or circumventing it.

Plus lets say something does manage to blow cover to one of your units half way through 1 shooting phase, they then have the other half to focus on one of those very scary suits.

MrDrumMachine wrote:Well if you run into lash they pull you out of cover and then pie plate you with s10 ap 1 or s 8 ap3 while their mobile meltas are headed for the vehicles. At least that's what I've run into. Also things like termicide can make for a bad day for your suits if they scatter away from a vehicle.

I'm just saying some strong chaos lists will give you trouble, especially if they either get first turn or reserve everything to deny you first shot at their vehicles.

Same is true for very fast eldar, 2 squads of fire dragons in WS with star engines can get 36' across the board in 1 turn and even if you bring down the serpent the dragons will have a field day with anything close to them.

Not to say they wouldn't be tough lists for you to go up against no matter what, just saying that without the shield drones I think suits are much more vulnerable to high str low AP weapons that have ways of either getting you out of cover or circumventing it.

Agreed it would be a pretty difficult fight no matter how its approached, I just can't personally justify a 15pt cost for a shield drone..its only 1 invuln save while others still rely on cover.. but i do thank you for pointing out this weakness

MrDrumMachine wrote:Plus lets say something does manage to blow cover to one of your units half way through 1 shooting phase, they then have the other half to focus on one of those very scary suits.

very true, but thats the fortunes of war lol Don't know of anything anyone can really do to prevent this happening sometimes? just gotta pray that disruption pod holds out or it does anything other than a 6 on the dmg table (or 5 w/ ap1)

Any other things you can think of? Lists that would provide difficult?

Mechvets come to mind, outflanking to deny you cover saves with vendettas and lots of t/l las. For that matter probably anything outflanking with lots of shooting would more or less suck to fight against.

BW spam with a big mek with a KFF might be difficult unless you can take out the KFF BW turn 1 (and you go first) especially if the other HQ is Ghazz. 13'' +2''+6"+6" assault is always bad and if even 1 BW makes it you're pretty hosed.

As I mentioned earlier DE would be rough because of raider spam and very high mobility with decent assault troops and high str low AP weapons all over the place.

I think you'd probably do pretty well against drop pod armies, at least as well as any other Tau list can. But those SW armies that go for a bunch of razor backs and t/l las cannons might be able to out shoot you, but that's more dependent on first turn.

Mmmmmmm that's about all I got! Most common mech MEQ armies that run 2 ish LR you should be able to just about table, even when they drop a MM dread in your lines.

EDIT: Also while I can see how 15 points for a shield drone may seem expensive, they've allowed me (in my limited experience) to keep shooting at my full capacity for the whole game rather than being slowly whittled down, and that imo always justifies the 15 points.

MrDrumMachine wrote:Mechvets come to mind, outflanking to deny you cover saves with vendettas and lots of t/l las. For that matter probably anything outflanking with lots of shooting would more or less suck to fight against.

Roger that, but at least with outflanking you know its coming ahead of time so you can at least try to maneuver into a defensible position to react to where ever they come on..not quite as much about list anymore but about who can out think who..

MrDrumMachine wrote:BW spam with a big mek with a KFF might be difficult unless you can take out the KFF BW turn 1 (and you go first) especially if the other HQ is Ghazz. 13'' +2''+6"+6" assault is always bad and if even 1 BW makes it you're pretty hosed.

Think about the same applies here..but pretty much just kill/stun as many vehicles as you can a turn, and only feed him pieces of the army you can afford him gobbling...

As I mentioned earlier DE would be rough because of raider spam and very high mobility with decent assault troops and high str low AP weapons all over the place.

MrDrumMachine wrote:I think you'd probably do pretty well against drop pod armies, at least as well as any other Tau list can. But those SW armies that go for a bunch of razor backs and t/l las cannons might be able to out shoot you, but that's more dependent on first turn.

Mmmmmmm that's about all I got! Most common mech MEQ armies that run 2 ish LR you should be able to just about table, even when they drop a MM dread in your lines.

Yea I usually have fairly good success ripping apart LRs and Drop pod marines..it pretty much turns into a turkey shoot by turn 2-3

MrDrumMachine wrote:EDIT: Also while I can see how 15 points for a shield drone may seem expensive, they've allowed me (in my limited experience) to keep shooting at my full capacity for the whole game rather than being slowly whittled down, and that imo always justifies the 15 points.

Yea i just wish the entire squad or at least included the person controlling the drone got a 4+ invuln as well..but alas no dice...so I think a gun drone could fill the same role for 5pts cheaper?

*edit* This is supposed to be an all comers list btw

Well if you are going to spend 10 just spend 15. I don't know if you have faced alotta BW ork lists but it is rather hard to just feed them a squad and get away. The sheer range that a mechanized ork army can move it is more then enough to just run you down rather quickly. I hate to say it but as far as all comers go, there have been alotta harsh matchups and only 1-2 good ones listed. It doesn't mean this list can't rate, it just means you need to tweak little things here and there to deal with plausible pit falls you may encounter. Things that will make you wish you had those shield drones are one such pit fall.

Based on the loss of IC status I would then move the HW drone controller to the Shas'el so when he joins a unit he can't be singled out anymore, but other than that I can't see anything that I think would need to be changed.

I think my final thought on the matter is that you're paying 30 points for +1 BS (or whatever option you need) for half the game, and I guess considering you can't give them TA that's probably a decent deal with the amount of fire you'll be throwing around. I may give it a try by shifting some points around in my lists as well.

Remove marker drones. Add pathfinders.

MrDrumMachine wrote:Based on the loss of IC status I would then move the HW drone controller to the Shas'el so when he joins a unit he can't be singled out anymore, but other than that I can't see anything that I think would need to be changed.

I think my final thought on the matter is that you're paying 30 points for +1 BS (or whatever option you need) for half the game, and I guess considering you can't give them TA that's probably a decent deal with the amount of fire you'll be throwing around. I may give it a try by shifting some points around in my lists as well.

Yea it is essentially a 50/50 chance of BS +1 for the squad..so basically less effecient than TAs.. but the entire squad can't really take a TA and be efficient either... which brings about another idea of just not using the marker drones, giving every team leader and HQ a TA at a cost of 40 points, leaving 50 points from marker drones to blow on either gun drones for wound abuse on the teams, or extra pathfinders.. I just hate it when your deployed, pushing forward and you cant really avoid getting into those hard to reach places without mark light support.. but with TAs it would SOMEWHAT alleviate the problem... i think i actually like this route better now the more i think about it Thanks DrumMachine!! and your first note, absolutely right!!!

grankobot wrote:Remove marker drones. Add pathfinders.

10 pathfinders, 5 marklights a turn, 2.5 marklights a turn per intended target from each squad of pathfinders.
marker drones are there for mobile markers and more flexibility. If a little more thought coule be put into your post gankobot i'd like to hear actual reasons why this, why that, you know..things logical people do not just a blanket statement with no reasoning.

Aztralwolf wrote:Well if you are going to spend 10 just spend 15. I don't know if you have faced alotta BW ork lists but it is rather hard to just feed them a squad and get away. The sheer range that a mechanized ork army can move it is more then enough to just run you down rather quickly. I hate to say it but as far as all comers go, there have been alotta harsh matchups and only 1-2 good ones listed. It doesn't mean this list can't rate, it just means you need to tweak little things here and there to deal with plausible pit falls you may encounter. Things that will make you wish you had those shield drones are one such pit fall.

As far as spending 15 instead of 10, when it comes down to the bottom of the list building 5/10/15 points starts to be a pain to move around, and if they are just there for a wound anyway might as well make them as cheap as possible and also have a off chance at dealing a wound at 18'', since they will be taking a cover save almost always..

And i agree that there will be hard match ups, but at the same time they shouldn't be just, oh your fighting said list your going to lose..should still be winable even against a good player thats the goal. But i would love to take any suggestions on tweaking for better overall performance if you have any?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
I've edit the list a little bit from yall's critiques so everyone thats been punching holes in the list please continue to do so!

Think your idea was completely right Machinedrum, ran a little maths and the TAs overall probably are less burst fire, but more steady rate of fire..by this i mean the other has the potential per squad to dish out more death, but the TA route is safer (less dice rolling) so more consistent

TopC wrote:

grankobot wrote:Remove marker drones. Add pathfinders.

10 pathfinders, 5 marklights a turn, 2.5 marklights a turn per intended target from each squad of pathfinders.
marker drones are there for mobile markers and more flexibility. If a little more thought coule be put into your post gankobot i'd like to hear actual reasons why this, why that, you know..things logical people do not just a blanket statement with no reasoning.

First of all, 5 markerlights is rarely enough for one target because you'll often be combining them anyway. 2.5 hits = half the time you don't have enough to completely strip a cover save. That's no good, so spreading out your lights doesn't help you much in the end.

2 squads of 5 T3 4+ save guys are squishy - we all know pathfinders don't last long even with a full 8. Why take chances? They're also less than half as expensive as marker drones. By dropping all the marker drones you could bring up both squads to a full 8 with 12 points to spare.

grankobot wrote:

TopC wrote:

grankobot wrote:Remove marker drones. Add pathfinders.

10 pathfinders, 5 marklights a turn, 2.5 marklights a turn per intended target from each squad of pathfinders.
marker drones are there for mobile markers and more flexibility. If a little more thought coule be put into your post gankobot i'd like to hear actual reasons why this, why that, you know..things logical people do not just a blanket statement with no reasoning.

First of all, 5 markerlights is rarely enough for one target because you'll often be combining them anyway. 2.5 hits = half the time you don't have enough to completely strip a cover save. That's no good, so spreading out your lights doesn't help you much in the end.

2 squads of 5 T3 4+ save guys are squishy - we all know pathfinders don't last long even with a full 8. Why take chances? They're also less than half as expensive as marker drones. By dropping all the marker drones you could bring up both squads to a full 8 with 12 points to spare.

Thanks for posting back

Your right, which is why the marker drones were in there...it was still limited in marklight hits per turn with them..but the goal was to have some BS + out of marklight range or after pathfinders bite the dust.. So i edit the list and came up with a little mid ground... gave each team leader + the HQ a TA, as well as increasing the pathfinder squads to 6 instead of 5...

any thoughts on this route?

Targeting Arrays are an all or nothing upgrade IMO. If you have a squad with 2 BS3 guys and one BS4 guy, you still have to spend 2 markerlights to get them to BS5. If one of them would only need one, then his TA is wasted.

I stand by my suggestion - cut the unnecessary upgrades on the crisis squads, cap out the pathfinders.

grankobot wrote:Targeting Arrays are an all or nothing upgrade IMO. If you have a squad with 2 BS3 guys and one BS4 guy, you still have to spend 2 markerlights to get them to BS5. If one of them would only need one, then his TA is wasted.

I stand by my suggestion - cut the unnecessary upgrades on the crisis squads, cap out the pathfinders.

the problem i tend to run into isnt that i have a lack of markerlights in general, its a i have a lack of marker lights later in the game where i need them...IE flow of combat has drifted out of their range (yes i do try to keep them fairly central on the board to provide plenty of coverage area..) so i'm trying to figure out a way to supplement the pathfinders BS boost in other ways

also..since my HQ is always attached to a squad..its pointless for him to have a TA going to BS 5..doh lol might as well leave him at bs4 with the team leader with a TA


ok did a little math... this is assuming you buy pathfinders in pairs, going with averages 2=1 hit. increasing the BS of the entire squad by 1 take the new amount of kills divided by the cost of 24pts gives you... 0.0401. every point = 0.0401 kills (when it increases a squad of fire knives bs by 1) and giving a ta to the squad leader and repeating the process gives you a value of.. 0.033 kills per point spent on a TA. So yes marklights are more efficient (which wasnt really argued ) but the lower cost/kill efficiency is transportable to anywhere on the battlefield and doesnt have to use as many light hits so another squad/unit can join in the fun.. or if 2 squads are in just completely strip cover from a unit...

I see both sides of the coin, im just trying to be as redundant/flexible as possible even if it does require some inefficiencies..

Biggest thing I would say is to try and keep the diversified suits. Even though some things CAN insta kill you, it doesn't mean that having the squad diversity should be forgotten.

I still think some mech heavy lists will give you a hard time, primarily Orks as that is what I have the most experience playing in 5th. But then again everyone has trouble once a big mek starts giving all the BW's and Trukks a save lol.

As a personal opinion I think the list is really solid but also really. . . .bland. In my opinion it seems to lack some of the more wily tricks that Tau can bring to the table. I don't think you could go wrong by including at least a little variety in your crisis suits.

Your anti-horde is moderate but I would be hard pressed to call it good. To be honest you even seem to lack real any real torrent fire. I would definitely keep 2 squads of fireknifes, but maybe you should consider dropping one for a squad of firestorms or heatwaves. I've found a squad of firestorms with a shas'el with a CIB turn out so much fire that most squads just fold under the pressure.

The heatwaves would give you a lot more flexibility because it's more or less inevitable that things will get in your face, and what better time to lay down 30+ hits from flamers. Also you would free up a considerable amount of point for say more kroot or to cut down on your KP and turn your scorefish into warfish.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also as far as extra spice you might want to consider a positional relay as that gives you a lot more tactical flexibility for reserving 1 or 2 units and being almost guaranteed of their arrival for when you want them.