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No one in their right mind takes big choppas, unless they're playing around with wound allocation loopholes.

I hate when stuff like PKs become nobrainers because the alternative sucks . So what can we do for the Big Choppa?

Give it a -1 modifier to armour saves. Kinda like others have suggested for regular choppas, as they used to reduce all better armour saves to 4+. Regular boyz don't need it, but the nob does if he's not to take a PK every time.

A nob is init 4 on the charge, so with the big choppa he can go at the same time as MEQ and before GEQ. He would get the edge against other powerfist armed infantry. If we also make the BC one handed he also gets more attacks. So what do you want your nob to do? Krump tanks , or munch through infantry ?

It's good idea with -1 save modifer
PK is fer krumpin' tanks and big choppa is fer krumpin' infantry

NO one in their rhight sense would not take Big choppas.
They are a grat combination together with twin-linked shootas so you CAN hit something.

wolfieboy wrote:NO one in their rhight sense would not take Big choppas.
They are a grat combination together with twin-linked shootas so you CAN hit something.

I agree, I take big choppas all the time, they are so cheap to put on the nobs in comparison to a PK, and they give the ability to wound most models on a 2+ making them very useful when fighting anything with toughness 4.

Dedrith wrote:

wolfieboy wrote:NO one in their rhight sense would not take Big choppas.
They are a grat combination together with twin-linked shootas so you CAN hit something.

I agree, I take big choppas all the time, they are so cheap to put on the nobs in comparison to a PK, and they give the ability to wound most models on a 2+ making them very useful when fighting anything with toughness 4.

3rd-ed: Big Choppas are excellent. Sure, a PK on a squad upgrade Nob is a no brianer, but on a Nob squad you dont want more that 2PKs

A -1 save is a good idea. But the main reason that people take Big Choppas is so that they can inflict ID in CC agaisnt T3 things, like Eldar, so they can kill lots of theese in combat really easily, no matter what armour save they have, or how many wounds they've got. All for only 5pts!

Ok, folks, what are you taking about? Big Choppas aren't good. But how can str 7 on the charge be bad, I hear you cry. Because the PK is always better, thats why!

- BC is two handed. The PK gives you the same number of attacks, unlike with assault terminators, where TH/SS or LC are actually a tactical choice.

- PK allows you to instakill most characters and infantry, BC does not.

- PK makes an ordinary mob capable of taking down MCs and vehicles, BC does not.

- And most importantly: PKs lets you reliable kill MEQs since it ignores armour. BC does not.

All in all it's a bad idea to just make the choppa cheaper to offset all of this. Why buy something cheap at all when you have no use for it?

That's why I want rules for BCs that makes them more efficient at taking down infantry than the PK. An extra attack + some armour negation would do it, and still justify the cost I think. What do you think?



EDIT: @Eldar Own, sorry, posted while you did! You make a valid point, but since you don't gain attacks and still go last against Eldar the PK is just as good at it (actually better because of armour saves). People who do this do it to save points. That's rubbish. Do you give your Deffkoptas big shootas to save points? No, because they have no use for them, no matter how low the price is.

They said it all there. A BC will eat through infantry and with 1 or 2 PKs in there you have the ability to pop tanks. Toss a Banner in there you have 5 WS with S7 hits on a charge.

Yeah, but following your rationale the BC is only "worth it" in Nob squads. I want it to be viable in boyz mobs as well!

Kveldulv wrote:Ok, folks, what are you taking about? Big Choppas aren't good. But how can str 7 on the charge be bad, I hear you cry. Because the PK is always better, thats why!

- BC is two handed. The PK gives you the same number of attacks, unlike with assault terminators, where TH/SS or LC are actually a tactical choice.

- PK allows you to instakill most characters and infantry, BC does not.

- PK makes an ordinary mob capable of taking down MCs and vehicles, BC does not.

- And most importantly: PKs lets you reliable kill MEQs since it ignores armour. BC does not.

All in all it's a bad idea to just make the choppa cheaper to offset all of this. Why buy something cheap at all when you have no use for it?

That's why I want rules for BCs that makes them more efficient at taking down infantry than the PK. An extra attack + some armour negation would do it, and still justify the cost I think. What do you think?



EDIT: @Eldar Own, sorry, posted while you did! You make a valid point, but since you don't gain attacks and still go last against Eldar the PK is just as good at it (actually better because of armour saves). People who do this do it to save points. That's rubbish. Do you give your Deffkoptas big shootas to save points? No, because they have no use for them, no matter how low the price is.

So by your logic people will field entire squads of PKs?
If someone does this, they get hammered, as they rightly deserve to.

Lets run some math:

Nob w/PK vs GEQ, charging
GEQ strikes first
If the Nob survives, it kills 2.22

Nob w/PK vs GEQ
GEQ strikes first
If the Nob survives, it kills 1.67

Nob w/BC vs GEQ, charging
Strike at the same time
Nob kills 1.48

Nob w/PK vs GEQ
GEQ strikes first
If the Nob survives, it kills 1.11

------------------------------------------------

Nob w/PK vs MEQ, charging
MEQ strikes first
If the Nob survives, it kills 1.66

Nob w/PK vs MEQ
MEQ strikes first
If the Nob survives, it kills 1.24

Nob w/BC vs MEQ, charging
MEQ strikes first
If the Nob survives, it kills .55

Nob w/PK vs MEQ
MEQ strikes first
If the Nob survives, it kills .41

----------------------------------------------------

A BC nob costs 45% less than a PK nob
VS GEQ (assume charge) per 100p of Nobz
BC = 5.92 kills (striking at the SAME TIME)
PK = 4.93 kills (striking last)

VS MEQ (assume charge) per 100p of Nobz
BC = 2.2 kills (striking after MEQ)
PK = 3.69 kills (striking last)

----------------------------------------------------
A PK is undoubtbly better vs MEQ/TEQ etc due to its ability to ignore armour.
However, a BC is still better vs anything with a 5+ or worse save, and roughly equal with a 4+
vs Fire Warrior:
BC4.44 to PK4.93

Also, the fact the BC hits at I2(3) and PK at I1 should not be underestimated.
Not only does it allow the BC to strike simultanusly/before things like GEQ, Necrons etc, it also goes before power fists and some MCs.
A BC is also quite good at tank busting on the charge.

Of course its daft not to have 1 or 2 pks in a nob squad. Its also just as daft not to give at least some of the others BC.

Nice math.

Of course its daft not to have 1 or 2 pks in a nob squad. Its also just as daft not to give at least some of the others BC.

I refer to my previous post. To pose the question another way: How can we avoid making PKs mandatory for Nobz in boyz mobs?

There is the thing why not have the Nob boy with a PK? ya it saves you a total of 20 points but thats 29 armor saves that the nob doesnt have to take on him to have the PK atks. BC is for units in more numbers for say nobs and PK is for poping high armor stuff.

Also, the fact the BC hits at I2(3) and PK at I1 should not be underestimated.
Not only does it allow the BC to strike simultanusly/before things like GEQ, Necrons etc, it also goes before power fists and some MCs.
A BC is also quite good at tank busting on the charge.

Nobs are I 3 (4 on the charge), BC hit at the same time as MEQ on the charge.

But yes, Big Choppas are only for Nob mobs. When you only have a single Nob in a boy squad, no one is ever going to give them anything but a PK. Even if the BC reduced armor saves by one, it would only benefit Nob squads, because when you're counting on one model to do all the heavy lifting for a squad, why would you take Str 6(7) -1 Armor over Str 8(9) ignores armor?

Kveldulv wrote:I refer to my previous post. To pose the question another way: How can we avoid making PKs mandatory for Nobz in boyz mobs?

Remove monstrous creatures, dreadnaughts and vehicles from the game?

This is the same dilemma that every army faces with seargent type upgrades, powerfist of other funky stuff. The presence of the aforementioned units makes the powerfist the only real choice. There is no need to make orks any different.

take a -1 on armour saves but there is no reason to take a BC in boyz mobs sence i a dread charges you and you dont have a power claw youre screwed.

Ok, folks, what are you taking about? Big Choppas aren't good. But how can str 7 on the charge be bad, I hear you cry. Because the PK is always better, thats why!

Why do people never open thier eyes?
Of course the PK is stronger, and ignores saves.
Its also 5X the cost and strikes at I1.

If your dumb enough to arm a unit of nobz with all klawz then not only will they die quickly, they would have deserved it too.
The big choppa gives the ability to pop transports and light armour, while still striking at a decent "I" against infantry.

You charge a unit of burna boyz with them, the klaw nobz will die before getting to attack back.
The Big Choppa nobz will wipe them out.

I generally would take 10 nobz, and give 3-4 of them klawz.
The rest will be a pain boy and big choppas.


Wolfie also brings up a very good point here.
Walker screw you over all the time.
They ignore saves (Due to DCCW) they will strike 1st if you have klawz.
They will also cause instant death.
The Big choppas have the advantage of going 1st, and being able to pop the armour when needed through a bucket of S7 attacks.

I want it to be viable in boyz mobs as well!

You dont allways get what you want.
Boyz mob's need that klaw attack for transports.
The Choppa simply wouldnt cope with the AV13-14 your faced with alot of the time.
I also dont see how a -1 save will improve it against a vehicle.




Also, the reason GW scrapped the "No saves may be better than a 4+ against a Uge choppa" was for common sense.
While cutting the save down on a tough marine, it did nothing to the average guardsman, which seemed far too un-fluffy for them how a large axe would do more against a marine than an unarmoured soldier.

I like the armor save modifier. Orks should probably (fluff-wise) be higher Strength all the time, but that's not how the game works right now. I tried taking a Warboss with a BC for the S8 charge at I5, but it really doesn't do enough. Insta-kill doesn't really mean much except against against FNP or 2+ wound models that you simply don't run into enough, and then for only the first turn.

As it exists, the Big Choppa is nothing great, but I'm not sure you need to waste much energy worrying about fixing it.

LeperMessiah wrote:As it exists, the Big Choppa is nothing great, but I'm not sure you need to waste much energy worrying about fixing it.

Its only five points, its fairly awesome for its price. It just lacks purpose in Boyz mobz.

Jack

Dedrith wrote:
I agree, I take big choppas all the time, they are so cheap to put on the nobs in comparison to a PK, and they give the ability to wound most models on a 2+ making them very useful when fighting anything with toughness 4.

WS 5 (nob w/banner) vs. WS 4 T4 (standard marine/ork boy):
Big choppa: Strength 7, 4 attacks: 2.22 wounds
Slugga/choppa: Strength 5, 5 attacks: 2.22 wounds

Look ma, no difference! You spent 5 points in order to have the exact same effect on the charge. Against T3 targets, the big choppa results in fewer wounds. Then you spent 5 points to do less. The big choppa is for choppin rear armor 10 vehicles and MCs. It is slightly better than slugga/choppa if T4 charges your nobs (1.66 vs. 1.33) or subsequent combat rounds, but I find neither of those situations are common.

-1 to saves from big choppas is not unreasonable though at they point they would basically be cheap PKs that just don't go as far. They don't ignore saves, they reduce them. They don't make the nob strength 9 on charge, just 7. It's everything the PK does only less and for cheaper.

-1 to saves from big choppas is not unreasonable though at they point they would basically be cheap PKs that just don't go as far. They don't ignore saves, they reduce them. They don't make the nob strength 9 on charge, just 7. It's everything the PK does only less and for cheaper.

Sounds good, but considering PKs currently aren't a budget issue for ork players (this is where the first points go, not the last points!) it doesn't really do what I want. I wanted some infantry chopping goodness!

As it exists, the Big Choppa is nothing great, but I'm not sure you need to waste much energy worrying about fixing it.

Yeah, you're right. I'll do something else... like getting a shave. Thank you and good night!

Basically, you put pks on boyz mobs nobs because that gives them heavy-duty tank busting potential. BC's do not belong there, for the same reason I don't put Plasma Guns in my infantry squads: it doesn't make sense.

A very good build for a nob mob is:

10 nobs
Waaagh! Banner
3 PK's
7 Big choppas
Painboy
Cybork body on all of them
(Throw in bikes if you want, but that ups their points cost by a ton)
Put 'em in a battlewagon with 1-2 warboss's with PK's for landraiders, and your good to go.

The ability to wound on 2+ on most things, 4+ on most MC's, and still have tons of attacks... BC's are insanely great for 5 pts. If terminators had an equivalent you'd probably see them all the time. Str 6 is awesome any way you put it, who cares if it gets saves? when its dealing with 10+ wounds its bound to either die or at least be damn close.

true true

BC don't belong in Boy mobs and here's why.

Big choppas are anti-infantry. boyz are already insanly good at killing infantry of all types, by making them take a million saves. The Big choppa is only viable against MCs because of the inititive change, and if there are 15-20 boyz to soak up the wounds a PK is better.

Power Klaws are anti-elite MEQ/MCs/vehicles of any kind. now it is true that unless you have a warboss with a PK, a PK will only ever glance a Landraider. BUT again MCs and walker will generally stay away from a mob with a PK than a Mob with a BC.

They know they won't be able to neutralize either one and because of the Str they will go after the BC mob focusing on what will hurt them less.

I don't have the Ork Codex yet, so sorry if this makes it redundent equipment, but wouldn't making the Big Choppa a 'Rending' weapon fix this issue?

Fluff-wise I'm not sure what Rending is supposed to represent although I almost remember the affect from 3rd edition I can't say from where.

I would consider anybody who gives a Nob a standard Choppa clinicly insane, or fantasticly stupid.

present company excepted of course...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karon wrote:Basically, you put pks on boyz mobs nobs because that gives them heavy-duty tank busting potential. BC's do not belong there, for the same reason I don't put Plasma Guns in my infantry squads: it doesn't make sense.

A very good build for a nob mob is:

10 nobs
Waaagh! Banner
3 PK's
7 Big choppas
Painboy
Cybork body on all of them
(Throw in bikes if you want, but that ups their points cost by a ton)
Put 'em in a battlewagon with 1-2 warboss's with PK's for landraiders, and your good to go.

This is EXACTLY the setup that I created with my new box of nobz. A Warboss or Gazkghull make it an unstoppable force of doom.

nintendoeats wrote:I would consider anybody who gives a Nob a standard Choppa clinicly insane, or fantasticly stupid.

Culler wrote:WS 5 (nob w/banner) vs. WS 4 T4 (standard marine/ork boy):
Big choppa: Strength 7, 4 attacks: 2.22 wounds
Slugga/choppa: Strength 5, 5 attacks: 2.22 wounds

Look ma, no difference! You spent 5 points in order to have the exact same effect on the charge. Against T3 targets, the big choppa results in fewer wounds. Then you spent 5 points to do less. The big choppa is for choppin rear armor 10 vehicles and MCs. It is slightly better than slugga/choppa if T4 charges your nobs (1.66 vs. 1.33) or subsequent combat rounds, but I find neither of those situations are common.

I would consider anyone who takes only big choppas and powerklaws to be throwing points away willy-nilly, especially since for the cost of 5 big choppas you get another 'eavy armored nob! 3 klaws, 2 big choppas, and 5 slugga/choppa nobs (10 total) will perform better than 3 klaws and 6 big choppas (9 total due to cost of equipment) against T4 or lower, which is almost everything.

If I just wanted to kill some standard infantry, I would get more Boys.

@Culler: Almost everything lower then T4?

Troops:
T3: Guardsmen, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tau, 'Gaunts, SOB

T4: SM, CSM, Necron, Orks, Genestealers, Deamons

All and all I think the average Toughness for a Troop is still 3.5. So you may want that added performance.

I take Big Choppas all the time, for those pesky MC's and armour 11 rear tanks, and to ID tau and guard for the fun of it.

There arn't many T3 models that would need IDing.

Farseers, Etherials, Guard officers.

any that are worth IDing are going to be just as easy to kill normally