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Needing help killing him...
I play Lizardmen, so anyone thats going to say '10 Jezzails' please refrain.
Lord on a Carnosaur with the Blade of Realities doesn't really do it as he's leadership 10.
One of my mates has an Archaon based army, so I come up against it a lot.

Is he going to be inside a unit, or no?

Stegadons can help, what with "4D6 Poisoned Saves" and the liking.

Best bet I can think for Lizardmen is to beat him via combat resolution, make him hurt himself with his sword, or swamp him with spam of attacks / shots.

He'll be in a unit of Chaos Knights. The unit he's in isn't a problem, whenever I play against WoC my slann always has spells from Metal, Spirit of the Forge screws them over. But Archaon not so much. I tried to static combat res him by charging a block of 5x4 Saurus into him, but I couldn't do enough wounds to make him lose by enough to the point where he was breaking.

Hm, well, a few things:

Do you have other magic casters? Specifically, Skinks with access to Lore of the Heavens? I ask this, because Second Sign of Amul is very helpful.

If you can get rid of all the Knights, have you tried Law of Gold or Transmutation of Lead on Archaon? Both of these - especially together - can really put a dampener on his combat effectiveness (Archaon's now hitting on 4's, has a 1 worse armor save, and depending on what magic item you nullified may be very vulnerable).

Isn't he MR 2 or 3? That would put a damper on using magic to solve the problem(short of Teclis, of course). Distract the 800 pt unit of him and the knights with 800 points worth of skinks. Make sure he never hits anything worthwhile.

LOL that would be over 100 skinks ahahahaha

If it works, then it works.

Just need to use a tar pit unit against him.
So, a large block of skinks (keep the general near by)
Failing that, swarms are allways nice for being a tarpit, just a shame they aint too cheap on points.

So yea, ignore trying to kill him, just hold him up for as long as possible.

Question: Does Archaon have Hatred? I ask this, because if so it just became infinitely easier to tie him up. Many people don't realize this, but just like Frenzied units those with Hatred have to over-run / pursue if given the option.

no he does not

Kroak + big templeguard unit = Unbreakable.

Then slam the flanks of his unit with other units.

Short of redirecting him, that is all I got ATM for lizardmen.

The beast cowers or luck are the only way I've ever seen him 'dealt' with.

How much does he cost? Him + his unit is easily over 1k points.

Tarpit him and use your superior numbers to gank the rest of his units, then actively ignore him the rest of the game. At best he should kill 3 (on average he should kill 2) units with that unit, make sure that You don't give up 1k points in what you give up to him, AND make sure that you take all the rest of his army apart with your superiority.

Yea, if he runs Archaon like I'd run Archaon (you know, with gun to head ), then he and the unit probably are close to 1000 points ...*

Whatever you do, first step should be getting terradons behind the unit to march block the hell out of them while the rest of your army gets away and trashes everything else. Feeding the Swords skink cohorts will work to kick it around some too, by diverting the unit off at odd angles. Assuming the skinks pass terror, and Archaon takes the bait. If you can control the Swords' movement well enough, you might be able to pop an engine or two off on them (war drums for moving into position?), which should be fairly unpleasant for them.

Another way to get your engine(s) off on the unit would be to stack a cohort or even saurus block with another behind it, with the intent of having the Swords kill and overrun / pursue into the unit behind. Yes, they're going to die too, but it'll be in your turn, when you'll be able to have the engine(s) move up alongside the Swords and WOOMP them even though they're in combat. Which might look like this:







I'll admit it's not a sure thing, and takes some luck and a lot of points in engine to pull off. You could do various versions of this trap though, by setting up secondary combats with cheap things and either keep Archaon occupied or keep popping engine smashes off when possible. This is also operating in a void, cause he will have more stuff in the army to kill you with, though not TOO much more

*Archaon + 5 Knights (blasted standard, standard, musician) = 955

- Salvage

Wait, doesn't Tichi Huichi's raiders all but prevent someone from following it when you flee from a charge? Sounds to me like a 150 point unit could absolutely lock down a 1k points unit.

Also: If you can ever figure out a way to get just one unit in that unit's flank (RnF or Knights) and then just sit there and grind. He can't kill enough models but his leadership is high enough that when he loses, he probably won't be running. Archaon can't move around within the unit unless Archaons unit wins the combat. GG.

Ragnar4 wrote:Wait, doesn't Tichi Huichi's raiders all but prevent someone from following it when you flee from a charge? Sounds to me like a 150 point unit could absolutely lock down a 1k points unit.

Yes. Problem being that you're only going to live long enough to flee twice, maybe. You're T2, and you don't have much in the way of a save.

Furthermore, you have to ask your opponent's permission to use them (I believe, anyways: They were written for the last Lizardmen book).

EDIT: And yeah, that's another option. If you're on the flank, Archaon cannot attack. As long as you maintain enough combat res to win, he can't relocate to the end so that he may strike. Disadvantage being a smart opponent would start removing knights on the engaged end, that it requires remaining knights in the first place, and that if you're on the flank you should already be going for a break and not tying him up.

Characters get to move into combat in their turn, should they be out and want to play. IF the flanked unit wins combat and isn't engaged to any other side, it can turn in place and no longer count as having its flank contacted ... But I'm about 99% sure Archaon will walk over and wreck whatever is flanking him the next turn, win or lose.

- Salvage

I would suggest taking Kroak in a large unit of unbreakable temple guard. Guard would take the charge, then Kroak pops his 2d6 s4 spell several times. Add in a Engine while Archaon is stuck there if you can.

@ Boss_Salvage

I'm pretty sure that rule was not held over from last edition. Now if you get into combat with a unit, that character is stuck where he's at until the unit gets an opportunity to turn.

I'll check the BRB when I get home.

No, Salvage is right, Archaon will swap onto the edge then wreck his way out. The only thing you get to do if you win is turn or add guys. Chars move in units in your own turn (can't leave combat, but are otherwise free to roam).

Kroak is a decent guy for handling Archaon. With his 3+ ward save he'll take some killing, and he's unbreakable, so while the unit stutters on him you can set up a flank on the non-Archaon side. Also, Kroak can nuke really hard if someone is sitting in B2B, might well blast the knights off.

@40k yeah I saw he was right. I apologize I was wrong.

Are you sure he wrecks the unit though? Lets say a 30 man unit of gobbos, in the flank. (5x6 obv)

The first combat, archaons unit loses, badly. At very best, they lose by 2, on average we're looking at 3 or 4. The next round, if archaons unit didn't directly attack the champion, the champion challenges, again probably winning by one after all attacks are resolved.perhaps losing by one. Then the next round Archaon finally starts whittling the unit down. Until the big guy kills more than 7 models (2 rounds) he's still going to be really struggling to get a win. THEN and ONLY THEN, will he be generating enough combat clout to cause the gobbos to start having problems. But only once, just once, a bad round of rolling sees Archaon off.

I'd have to agree with the Kroak/Temple Guard option. The most likely result of using Kroak/Temple Guard is Archaon fighting Kroak at the end of the game and if you're lucky he's even wounded himself twice. In general I think this is about the best Lizardmen can hope for in the way of "dealing" with Arcahon.

Hitting the unit in the flank gives you a turn to pack on the combat res and hope to get past Archaon's ld10 and ability to re-roll break checks. After that you're fighting the man himself so you probably aren't doing wounds and he's throwing 13 S5 attacks a round.

Also makes him kinda hard to tar pit. 40 plague monks and a furnace tried and Archaon killed them all to a rat. A block of Plaguebearers and a herald is one of the few units I've seen archaon balk at and lizardmen really don't have massed regen.

If you trade a temple guard unit for half points on archy and killing the swords of chaos you're in good shape. Even just killing the swords of chaos and stopping his rampage is worth the loss.

@ Ragnar4- you realize against T3 archaon AVERAGES 7-8 wounds a round right? This is assuming the man isn't feeling froggy and just anhialates 2 ranks in a single round. As long as his unit still has a banner, the unit of gobbos isn't sticking around for more than 2 rounds. This also raises the problem of how you managed the flank charge against a cavalry model with an infantry block. Doesn't seem plausible short of a grievous maneuvering error.

Ragnar4 wrote:@40k yeah I saw he was right. I apologize I was wrong.

Are you sure he wrecks the unit though? Lets say a 30 man unit of gobbos, in the flank. (5x6 obv)

The first combat, archaons unit loses, badly. At very best, they lose by 2, on average we're looking at 3 or 4. The next round, if archaons unit didn't directly attack the champion, the champion challenges, again probably winning by one after all attacks are resolved.perhaps losing by one. Then the next round Archaon finally starts whittling the unit down. Until the big guy kills more than 7 models (2 rounds) he's still going to be really struggling to get a win. THEN and ONLY THEN, will he be generating enough combat clout to cause the gobbos to start having problems. But only once, just once, a bad round of rolling sees Archaon off.

Lizards, with 20 saurus in the flank after you've diverted the Swords with a cohort, probably have an even better chance, with better stats (T, armor), cold-blooded, etc. Champs work well to suck him up too, except it'll be rare to catch him solo-charging, and his knight friends are pretty mean against the rest of the unit. I dunno, it's sounding like the options are 1) somehow flank it with something big or a large unit, but you gotta get that flank or not going to work; or 2) slann + TG / kroak + TG to lock it down and burn the Swords with magic.

Anecdote: I've actually killed the Lord of the End Times in combat, but this was in a mega battle. Basically, my side splattered away the Swords accompanying Archaon (with my skaven guns mostly), and Archaon solo-charged into a big block of skellies with full command. Champ sucked his attaks up, 1 crumbled, then the champ was raised, sucked up A-bomb again, etc, etc. I charged my warlord with fellblade into Archaon, and vaporized him with S10 D6 wound power. Not sure how this helps lizards, but was still awesome

- Salvage

@ Mastershake. Light Cavalry are the most underrated unit in the game. Creating situations like these are their bread and butter. I didn't realize he averaged 7-8 wounds per attack round. I though he had 10 attacks at ws 9 and str 5, meaning 3's to hit is 7 hits, and 2's to wound is 6 wounds...

What am i missing? Does he have hatred now?

His horse has an extra 3 WS5 S5 attacks, gets the model up to an average of 7.5 I believe. I don't underrate fast cav, but I do assume the player using archy isn't going to fall for their bait-and-switch. He has move 7 or 8 (forget which) so unlike an infantry block he can simply go around them, he isn't stuck charging or not moving that round. Also he's a Lvl 2 mage so he could just flickering fire the little blighters and he's a terror causer so he could just scare them off for a few turns.

I wasn't solely talking about Bait and flee.

I also think the swords of chaos unit includes Archy in the example described.

One thing you may want to explore: Letting archy and his unit actually charge your beleagured light cav. The understanding is: They may stay where they are at, or they may overrun on average 10 inches, after they crush your poor cav. Your job is to make sure that you have a unit that can charge them where they are at, or at any point between 0 and 10 inches in a straight line.

Part of the job lies on your fast cav in angling, and part of the job lies on your unit in the way they face after their movement.

This trick works MUCH better with Heavy cav as your charging unit, but it's still applicable for RnF.

Also: Even if Archy is by himself, if you use your Light cav to get 1 inch away from him, march blocking him, he has a choice, charge, or be relegated to nothing for the turn. Being a lvl 2 wizard hedges the bet for him... but he's got to successfuly cast it, and that light cav is suddenly your most important unit.