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Hey guys, just wondering something here. I first started off as an Orks player, and am gonna be using my Space Wolves as my second army (basically close combat horde army to a close combat marine army, was my intention). Im aware that Space Wolves excel in the 12"-24" range of shooting, standing their ground and forcing the enemy to weather their fire and charge them, allowing them to use their counterattack and so on. However Im also contemplating collecting an Imperial Fists army as my third 'shooty' army, to change things up a bit. But then it occurred to me, is there anything Space Marines can do with shooting that Space Wolves cant already do, if not better? If that's the case, I may just collect a really large force of Space Wolves, so that I can create a close combat or shooty list whenever the mood takes me.

They have all the same vehicles, like the cheap dakkapred, MM/HF or typhoon speeders, and most of the other SM toys except for the thunderfire cannon. SM Tacs can take heavy weapons in their squads, but SW can take a second special weapon instead as a trade-off. Not to mention SW Long Fangs are far better than the SM Devastators.

Another thing Ive considered is the usage of Combat Tactics, allowing SM to fall back, and regroup with ATSKNF to shoot the hell out of the enemy again. However with space wolves, losing in CC is much less of a worry, and if they fail a morale check, they can still regroup and shoot with as much firepower as a SM squad. (I may have misinterpreted how this works so feel free to correct me)

Any thoughts or comments?

Think you got everything right. Space Wolves are the ultimate jack of all trades in shooting and cc.

Space Marines definitely seem like better shooters to me. Space Wolves miss out on heavy weapons in basic squads, Combat Squads, Thunderfire Cannons, and Attack Bike Squadrons, which are all powerful tools.

Fetterkey wrote:Space Marines definitely seem like better shooters to me. Space Wolves miss out on heavy weapons in basic squads, Combat Squads, Thunderfire Cannons, and Attack Bike Squadrons, which are all powerful tools.

While that's true, it seems I can still build a decent gunline using a variety of preds/vindis/whirlwinds/long fangs (not enough room for heavy slots :(), with more missile fire coming from typhoon speeders for the FA, and yet more from AC/cyclone TDA WG or riflemen/TLLC ML dreds, while using grey hunters to hold the line with bolter fire, and getting stuck in when the need arises, or better yet, 6-man grey hunters with razorbacks for high-density shooting (special plus WG combi)

Space Wolves aren't bad at shooting by any means, but in my opinion Space Marines are better. The assault prowess of the Wolves may or may not outweigh the shooting ability of the Marines. I personally prefer Tactical Marines to Grey Hunters, but many seem to make the opposite decision. In the end, it comes down to what style of army you prefer. Both Codex: Space Marines and Codex: Space Wolves are new and strong books with many valid options.

Combat Squads and Combat Tactics are really valuable when it comes to Devastators. Long Fangs may be able to split their fire, but they're only one unit to absorb incoming fire and they have no ammunition carriers to absorb bullets for the guys actually manning the Heavy Weapons. Not to mention the Signum, allowing one weapon in the squad to be BS5. Not being able to split incoming fire between two units or to direct it into meat-shields put a damper on Long Fangs once your opponent figures out they're a glass hammer.

Regarding the trade-off of a special weapon vs a Heavy Weapon, both will be able to shoot if the squad can rally. More to the point the Space Marines can take a Veteran Sergeant in the same ten man squad that will fit into a Rhino with both weapons, rather than sacrificing one like the Grey Hunters will. Combat Squads allows part of the Space Marine squad to act aggressively, while the Heavy Weapon sits back and plinks away.

Not to mention that in both case Combat Tactics will allow the squad to reposition itself to maximize its firepower whereas Space Wolves are more easily pinned down, locked down, and otherwise more easily engaged (fewer units) and defeated in a shooting match.

This shooting, curiously, is improved by the regular Space Marine's access to better Assault Marines. There's a better division of labour, or specialization, in regular Marines with Assault Marines being able to carry the fight to the enemy and dig Tactical Marines out of a fight.

The difference is basically that Space Wolves need to close with an ultimately assault the enemy with every unit they have, and those units need to be flexible because they can't specialize to the degree that ordinary Marines can. The only time a Tactical Squad want to charge into a unit is when doing so would prevent a worse close combat situation in the following player's turn. A squad of Grey Hunters wants to charge into combat because they'll be more effective there than shooting.

Wow, thanks for that Nurglitch. I have never considered, since Im not technically an SM player, hence I do not know the intrancacies and all that.

I disagree... Grey Hunters are better at shooting than they are in CC. They can RF, sit there and absorb the charge and if their Counter Assault goes off, they still get the attacks for charging. They only want to charge headlong into assault to prevent stuff like Orks from getting the charge or to tie up super shooty units.

Nurglitch wrote:
The difference is basically that Space Wolves need to close with an ultimately assault the enemy with every unit they have, and those units need to be flexible because they can't specialize to the degree that ordinary Marines can. The only time a Tactical Squad want to charge into a unit is when doing so would prevent a worse close combat situation in the following player's turn. A squad of Grey Hunters wants to charge into combat because they'll be more effective there than shooting.

This is not the least bit true. Space Wolves are able to specialize their shooting to a greater degree than normal marines because they can take two of the same special weapons on their basic squads as opposed to a special and a heavy, and with regards to Long Fangs versus Devestators, Space Wolves will give you the same offensive firepower for fewer points; if you're adding ablative bodies, then it's far fewer points.

Finally, a squad of Grey Hunters is more than content sitting at rapid fire range and shooting all day because they are just as good at taking the assault as initiating one. It's because they're so good at close combat that they can focus on the shooting phase to a larger extent.

Space marines have access to more heavy weapons on more different units for shooting, and can upgrade and specialise in it where Wolves cannot.

I fail to see how adding a single heavy weapon to a single unit in the codex means that SM are somehow specialized at shooting.

Their Devastators are flat out worse than SW Long Fangs.

All of the vehicle configurations are shared, with the exception of the Thunderfire Cannon, which I rarely see anybody use.

sourclams wrote:All of the vehicle configurations are shared, with the exception of the Thunderfire Cannon, which I rarely see anybody use.

Exactly... the only really shooty options that SW lost were Attack Bike Squadrons and Sternguard and single heavy weapons on scoring units.

sourclams wrote:I fail to see how adding a single heavy weapon to a single unit in the codex means that SM are somehow specialized at shooting.

Heavy weapons, especially when combined with Combat Squads, make Tacticals much better shooters than Grey Hunters, and Bike Squads are better than either.

sourclams wrote:Their Devastators are flat out worse than SW Long Fangs.

I find that Devastators are significantly better than Long Fangs, but you do pay a premium for them, which may or may not be worthwhile. I don't like having expensive units, so I don't bother with Devastators.

Fetterkey wrote:

sourclams wrote:I fail to see how adding a single heavy weapon to a single unit in the codex means that SM are somehow specialized at shooting.

Heavy weapons, especially when combined with Combat Squads, make Tacticals much better shooters than Grey Hunters, and Bike Squads are better than either.

sourclams wrote:Their Devastators are flat out worse than SW Long Fangs.

I find that Devastators are significantly better than Long Fangs, but you do pay a premium for them, which may or may not be worthwhile. I don't like having expensive units, so I don't bother with Devastators.

Neither do most people... because they are expensive!

Frankly, I find SW specialize their shooting, making it more effective. Even with Combat Squads, you have 4 guys loading ammo for one heavy weapon most of the time. SWs get their heavy shots off of dedicated platforms and then unleash their specials and bolters into targets where all the shots count. That's more efficient, especially when you consider the price difference between Grey Hunters and Tacticals.

"Worse" is poor word choice. "Far less efficient" is a much better way to put it.

However, heavy weapons don't make Tac Marines better shooters than GH. Better heavy weapons platforms, sure, but GH have an easier time bringing all their weapons to bear since they're specialized at short range fire fights.

Tactical squads are ranged generalists; they've got something that can plink you at long, medium, and short ranges, generally while standing still, but rarely are they actually bringing all their guns to bear effectively.

And I never hear anyone lament the loss of bike squads. Whether vanilla SM or SW, everybody's taking a speeder of some sort instead of a bike.

I like C:SM for all sorts of Vulkan lists, for example Vulkan, 5 Assault Terminators, Land Raider Crusader, 2 Dreadnoughts with MM, 2 Rhinos with tac squads with MM and flamer, three MM/HF speeders and three Dakka Preds. Alternatively I can replace Vulkan with an el cheapo Librarian and add something with the extra points. Sometimes I'd use three Rhinos but the concept is the same.

Either way regardless of HQ I think the C:SM armies are relatively short ranged. The best armies in my opinion focus on the multi-meltas and flamers and often some th/ss Terminators although they aren't a requirement for a solid list in my opinion.

The SW do the Razorback and 'Devastator' armies much better like sourclams has already tried to explain. C:SM Razorback spam lists are much less effective than the ones with min sized Grey Hunter pack spam, and Devastators don't even begin to compare with Long Fangs. I like Rune Priest, 3 Dreads, 6 Razors + 30 GH, 3 Speeders and 3 Dakka Preds when I'd run my DIY Marines as SW. Basically any shooty SW list will have many more lascannons and missile launchers and even plasma guns than a competitive C:SM army would.

From the two I'd actually call the C:SM lists sort of specialised while the SW lists are very traditional SM lists. Of course if you start using a lot of Iron Priests and dogs and TWC this all changes a bit. I've been thinking about playing a shooty SW list with one unit of TWC sometimes. This is essentially the same as adding some Terminators to a shooty SM list.

sourclams wrote:"Worse" is poor word choice. "Far less efficient" is a much better way to put it.

I dunno, Long Fangs have always seemed extraordinarily easy to neutralize to me. The lack of ablative wounds really hurts.

sourclams wrote:However, heavy weapons don't make Tac Marines better shooters than GH. Better heavy weapons platforms, sure, but GH have an easier time bringing all their weapons to bear since they're specialized at short range fire fights.

Tactical squads are ranged generalists; they've got something that can plink you at long, medium, and short ranges, generally while standing still, but rarely are they actually bringing all their guns to bear effectively.

I find that Combat Squads alleviate this problem nicely. A Tactical unit using Combat Squads becomes more efficient at shooting, can claim two objectives instead of one, and is significantly harder to kill.

sourclams wrote:And I never hear anyone lament the loss of bike squads. Whether vanilla SM or SW, everybody's taking a speeder of some sort instead of a bike.

Space Marines can take Bikes as Troops for those who really don't like Tactical Squads and/or can't make them work well.

Jack of all trades? Dual/Triple special weapon basic troop choices @ 15pt model, with 2ccw + boltguns, 1 special ranged weapon. Including wolfguard add-on and Mark of the Wolfen.. A bard, I think not!

Long fangs (the only non bard shooting in the list) are pretty potent too!

Combine that with the ability to field extremely combi-weapon dense wolfguard (in pods/transports) and you have some pretty nice shooting.

Space marines still win the shooting game overall, for many reasons; Mainly the various options of ranged shooting (6 dreds, MotF, scouts, tacticals and so on).

Fetterkey wrote:I find that Combat Squads alleviate this problem nicely. A Tactical unit using Combat Squads becomes more efficient at shooting, can claim two objectives instead of one, and is significantly harder to kill.

But this isn't specializing, unless the specialization is in putting as many units onto objectives as possible. You're taking a unit and splitting it out to do several things, none of which it really shines at. That's Generalization at its core.

Space marines still win the shooting game overall, for many reasons; Mainly the various options of ranged shooting (6 dreds, MotF, scouts, tacticals and so on).

I agree that SM can specialize at shooting, especially with things like 6 AC Dreads and Typhoon speeders, but the specialization isn't being done at the troops-squad level.

sourclams wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:I find that Combat Squads alleviate this problem nicely. A Tactical unit using Combat Squads becomes more efficient at shooting, can claim two objectives instead of one, and is significantly harder to kill.

But this isn't specializing, unless the specialization is in putting as many units onto objectives as possible. You're taking a unit and splitting it out to do several things, none of which it really shines at. That's Generalization at its core.

By making the unit more efficient at shooting, it becomes a more specialized shooting unit.

Grey Hunters can take Wolfguard to attach a model that fires a heavy weapon and close combat weapon that ignores armor saves. Sure the Wolfguard are pricey but they are there. If you suit said Wolfguard in tactical dreadnaught armor then the squad can move and fire all their weapons. To me the Grey Hunters are hands down better than their smurf counterparts all around.

The thing about Space Wolves in general is that they are inherently better in close combat plus the army can shoot well too. I've always thought the landraider should be featured in every SM list and to me it has no better home than with Space Wolves as they can utilize it to it's fullest potential. Sure a landraider is more expensive than a squad of Long Fangs but there is a good reason.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:Grey Hunters can take Wolfguard to attach a model that fires a heavy weapon and close combat weapon that ignores armor saves. Sure the Wolfguard are pricey but they are there. If you suit said Wolfguard in tactical dreadnaught armor then the squad can move and fire all their weapons. To me the Grey Hunters are hands down better than their smurf counterparts all around.

The thing about Space Wolves in general is that they are inherently better in close combat plus the army can shoot well too. I've always thought the landraider should be featured in every SM list and to me it has no better home than with Space Wolves as they can utilize it to it's fullest potential. Sure a landraider is more expensive than a squad of Long Fangs but there is a good reason.

G

If you include a suited Wolfguard then you remove the main power of being effective in close combat; Sweeping advances. Also, this squad @ 10 men will now cost you 200pts before any upgrades besides the Heavy Weapon + Power weapon TDA wolfguard model. So your looking about 240pt+ for a standard troop unit, how good at shooting, not amazingly.

You also need to factor in the additional minimum (and useless) 72pts of 4 other wolfguard. Its not all gravy and chips.

To me that cost is well worth the points and the fact is you can do. Would you rather have a missile launcher or a cyclone missile launcher? Would you rather have a heavy bolter or an assault cannon? Sure the latter choices cost a lot more but they are also more effective. The loss of Sweeping Advance is a good point.

G

I like GH's much more than tac squads. The ability to fight in cc is essential.

Long Fangs are superior to dev squads hands down.

I can get 7 models rather easily into a lf squad with 5 heavy weapons, instead of 4, that can target 2 different targets.

And it's 24 points cheaper. I think that more than makes up for the fact that devs can get '3 ablative wounds more' (for another 48 points and 72 total!) than the long fangs can.

Gornall wrote:I disagree... Grey Hunters are better at shooting than they are in CC. They can RF, sit there and absorb the charge and if their Counter Assault goes off, they still get the attacks for charging. They only want to charge headlong into assault to prevent stuff like Orks from getting the charge or to tie up super shooty units.

Being able to gain charge bonuses thanks to Counter-Assault doesn't really do anything to improve your shooting. Counter-Assault won't make a Heavy Weapon BS5, like a Signum will. Counter-Assault won't turn a Plasma Gun into a Plasma Cannon. It will improve your ability to fight a combat if you get charged, but only if you get charged.

Take a squad of ten Grey Hunters with two Plasma Guns and line them up against a squad of Tactical Marines with a Plasma Gun and a Plasma Cannon. The Tactical Marines simply have more firepower in this case. Regarding mobility, split the Tactical Squad in two and the Combat Squad with the Plasma Gun can manoeuvre, while the Grey Hunter squad will only be able to engage one Combat Squad at a time.

The Tactical squad's access to a Heavy Weapon will give them the range advantage as well.

If Grey Hunter shooting is giving you trouble, lock the unit down with a Dreadnought or a Wraithlord or something similarly big and tough that they can't realistically hurt and grind them down. The Tactical squad can use Combat Tactics to fall back from such a losing proposition and then shoot at full effect with a Heavy Weapon.

Of course those are just the basic troops. Space Marine bikes win the bike-battle hands down. Ditto for Assault Marines with dual-flamers vs Bloodclaws, and Assault Marines are better in close combat. Combat Tactics is even better if you have two or four Heavy Weapons, who survived the drubbing and escaped because their heroic human shields sacrificed their expensive lives to ensure those expensive Heavy Weapons got more than one shot. I think people will realize the utility of this once people get used to the new "everywhere but in front" Tyranids.

Something that nobody seems to have replied to are the advanced uses of Combat Tactics: Charge denial and anti-pinning. The nice thing about Space Wolves is that you can soften them up with impunity if you're planning on charging them, and you really should because its not like they come in big mobs like Orks that can pull casualties off the front of the unit. Tactical Marines, particularly in Combat Squads, can take a casualty and flee out of charge range. And then stop and shoot with full effect (unless you flanked them, or cut off their routes of escape, but them's tactics and have no place in a list-waving contest). Pinning in particular is handy. Pin a unit of Space Wolves and they'll sit and take it - there's a chance they might fail a Morale check, but it's unlikely, and there's nothing worse than a nicely pinned unit getting fed up and walking away. Which Tactical Marines can do by choice.

Dark Angels are practically all Fearless; the ones that aren't can be made that way by nearby Librarians or Banners. You can't pin them down, the stubborn buggers. They'll sit there and shoot right back. But both Codex Marines and Space Wolves can be pinned. Quite easily by Dark Eldar, with slightly more difficulty by Tau, and on occasion by Imperial Guard, and other Space Marines.

Its a minor point, but knowing that Space Wolves can be pinned and will have no recourse but to take it like little lady-dogs certainly puts their shooting on a lower shelf than units that cannot be pinned (Dark Angels, Chaos Cults) and units that can escape pinning (Combat Tactics).

So, to recap:

Range, splitting incoming fire as well as outgoing fire, shooting as you retreat, specialized shooting (Thunderfires, etc), and more unit specialization in general gives Codex Marines the advantage in a shooting match.

Fortunately Space Wolves are armed to the teeth to make up for it.

Nothing here but theory. Post the competitive long range (36"-48") shooty SM army lists if you think they exist and we'll then have a look if SW can match that firepower in the amount of heavy weapons with similar range, or not.

I think space wolves are less shooty than vanilla marines simply due to less heavy weapons available. But they aren't supposed to shoot if you ask me. They can shoot, but they are best at assaulting enemy units. For the ones who say that SW don't lose anything by shooting and letting the enemy charge and use counter attack. Don't forget that you are letting them get the charging bonus attack. I prefer denying them that bonus.

Nurglitch wrote:
Being able to gain charge bonuses thanks to Counter-Assault doesn't really do anything to improve your shooting.

But of course it does - it allows you to shoot in the first place. Instead of an either/or decision, you can have both. Yes, it only goes so far, but that's where experience and tactics come into play, as against units that you think won't charge you you still retain the option to charge yourself.

Take a squad of ten Grey Hunters with two Plasma Guns and line them up against a squad of Tactical Marines with a Plasma Gun and a Plasma Cannon. The Tactical Marines simply have more firepower in this case.

Nonsense.

0-12"
TAC: 3 plasma shots - if they did not move
GH: 4 shots

12-24":
TAC: 2 plasma shots
GH: 2 plasma shots

>24" only the Tactical squad has one shot. None of them has "simply" more firepower.

If Grey Hunter shooting is giving you trouble, lock the unit down with a Dreadnought

and if a Dreadnought is giving you trouble, "simply" counter it, and so on. This is all incredibly easy on paper especially when you invent situations that favour one side. Pit a pack of GH's and a Dread against a Tactical squad and it looks completely different.

My opponent fielded 2 dreads against me in a 3 player on sunday and I had the reaction of "Ooops". I forgot to put anti vehicle stuff in my army beyond 2 meltas. Got lucky and immobilized it, but grey hunters can't do anything against a dreadnought in assault unless you equip them with a power fist. A chance of a 6 to hit and 6 to damage isn't a great way to fight.

Will equip them with a few power fists here and there for next time, but dreads can do wonders against troops selections.

But back to shooting. Against some opponents SW will have the edge, not against others. It really is like people keep saying. You have an edge if they don't want to charge you. You lose the edge if they do want to charge you.

Why do people think that SW have fewer HW slots? Yes they lose a HW weapon in their GH squads, but gain said weapon back in the LF packs. SW also have the option of adding WG to the GH squads, possibly giving them even more firepower.