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So, I have been kinda entranced with the thunderfire of late. It puts out a LOT of firepower. It can be wonderfully good at slowing down an army. Creating difficult terrain for a unit "hit" is awesome against skimmers and bike mobz. Can ignore cover. comes with a servo harness tech marine that helps with your own saves.

Dakka pred is AR 13, can thin out hordes and take on light vehicles. Is cheaper than the thunderfire.

The army I am making the choice for has 2 x 2 x MM attack bikes, a large bike squad, 2 x tac squads w/o transports, sternguard in a pod, some scouts in a storm, bike captain. The basic idea is to have a fire base with the bikes, scouts, stern as the killy parts.

Just wondering what would work best.

ender502

Personally, I like dakka preds more. AV13 is much better than the AV10 of the thunderfire cannon.
85 points is dirt cheap for what the dakka preds bring to the table as well. Yesterday I had 2 dakka preds kill a hive tyrant in 2 turns of shooting.

I think that Whirlwind/Dakka Predator/TFC are all basically equivalent units.
Situationally they are stronger but as a whole, they all do the same basic job of killing infantry.

Whirlwind has the advantage of being able to fire out of LOS. Oddly its also the most mobile of the choices considering it can move/fire to full effect.

Dakka Predator is the best against a single target or small squad because it can stack wounds better. It also has some utility against light armor. However it suffers if the target is in cover.

TFC is kind of inbetween the other two. It has multiple shots meaning its better against a small squad then a Whirlwind but it has some options of ignoring cover unlike the Dakka Predator. Where it is lacking is that its the easiest to kill and its immobile. Coupled with being the most expensive choice (if just barely) and its not my preferred unit to be honest.

It's a tough call...I love the AC's S7 but also lov eteh flexibility of the thunderfire. It is also pretty sweet regarding the way it can forc eunits to move as if in difficult terrain with only a "hit" and not a wound. It certainly won't be killing any tyrants though. The pred is mobile but loses firepower considerably if it moves.

My sense is that, for my style of play, being able to slow my opponent is more important than the AR13.

I don't know, still up in the air.

ender502

I WANT to use those options, but I generally run out of points to include them.

I've tried 2 builds with my biker army.

Triple Whirlwinds.
Triple Preds.

So, from the both games I played with each they were poor matchups...so not really a good gauge of how well they can do.

WW vs. Mech Marines. Yea... not so cool. On the plus side I constistantly got glances on rhinos.
Denying Scouts 2+ cover saves was sort of fun.

Triple Preds vs. Ork Horde: was underwhelming with cover saves up the tailpipe. The torrent of fire was nice, but very limiting in actual offensive punch.
These guys are not anti-horde, these guys are anti-medium infantry....if that exists any more...

I'd say for your army to go with the thunderfire because you have 0 other template weapons and this allows your opponent to bunch up his troops, making them more effective without fear of retribution.

Plus it's really fun to use.

I want to...but it just don't look like it fits.

WW = out of sight.
Preds = durable front.

TFC = none of that.

My biker list is pretty 'fragile' alreay with the low model count, I need units that really don't need baby sitting.
I will try them eventually.
The Difficult/Dangerous terrain rounds looks heaps fun rather than the other shots.

The Thunderfire's range of 60 can keep it of SOME harm's way and it is small enough to stick in about ANY kind of terrain. It does look like heaps of fun to use.

The list I am looking at has an 8 bike squad, captain on bike, 4 MM attack bikes, 1 storm w/ scouts, 2 tac squads and sternguard in a pod. So, bike heavy but not bike only. I am really trying to go for a SM list that has less HTH and more medium range shooty.

ender502

My problem with the huge range is that the board is only 4x6.
In addition to that, to make the most of that range you'd have to go into a corner: Problems in clude outflankers and the isolation as the bikers will not be castling with it.

Your list is alot more diversified than mine, where a TFC may but up your ally, but it still lacks anything dedicated to making the most of the TFC/bolster defense...maybe the tacticals.

Sanctjud wrote:My problem with the huge range is that the board is only 4x6.
In addition to that, to make the most of that range you'd have to go into a corner: Problems in clude outflankers and the isolation as the bikers will not be castling with it.

Your list is alot more diversified than mine, where a TFC may but up your ally, but it still lacks anything dedicated to making the most of the TFC/bolster defense...maybe the tacticals.

Yeah, the 60" is only helpful if you are starting in a corner... That's the only real drawback for me with the thunderfire....how to deal with outflankers. Maybe part of the fix is to run them dead center and forward in terrain. Just say "yeah, come and get me... and my disks o' death!"

I don't know. They look fun. If I was going with even more bikes though i wouldn't use them. I'd go for mobile any day of the week. Hmmmm. Maybe...captain, 8 x bikes, 3 x 3x MM attack bikes, 3 dakka preds, 2 x full tacs in rhinos and some scouts in a storm. THat'd be kinda fun too.

ender502

The Dakkapred isn't particularly mobile, though. For that, you'd need a White Scars-style (no sponsons) Predator.

I play both units in my 1850pt marine list. At 1750pts I remove the Dakka predator. There is no points level I would remove the T-Fire. It is that good at problem solving.

Fetterkey wrote:The Dakkapred isn't particularly mobile, though. For that, you'd need a White Scars-style (no sponsons) Predator.

True but at least it can move 12" and redeploy. It costs you a turn of firing but it might be in your best interest.

Not to try and go off topic, but is it only me?
The Hvy support is numerous, but nothing screams 'need'. This could be a good thing, but I'm talking about the: I'd rather get somthing else feeling from the hvy support options...

Sanctjud wrote:Not to try and go off topic, but is it only me?
The Hvy support is numerous, but nothing screams 'need'. This could be a good thing, but I'm talking about the: I'd rather get somthing else feeling from the hvy support options...

There is not much else in the Heavy selection that can remove Eldar pathfinders from cover across the board. Nothing else that can pick up large numbers of Ork boyz in the shooting phase by denying them cover saves. Not much else that can threaten bunched up models the way a T-Fire can.

I think long range cover-ignoring firepower can be critical in 40k. In the case of Marines, that means Thunderfire Cannons or Whirlwinds. I find that the Thunderfire Cannon performs well against more targets than the Whirlwind does. While the Whirlwind is astounding against some foes, it performs poorly against others. The Thunderfire Cannon, on the other hand, almost always has a good target somewhere.

Sanctjud wrote:Not to try and go off topic, but is it only me?
The Hvy support is numerous, but nothing screams 'need'. This could be a good thing, but I'm talking about the: I'd rather get somthing else feeling from the hvy support options...

I know what you mean. I think there are roles for all the units but they aren't so great as to say "must have!" I love vindies but I erally question whether they are worth it unless you are taking 3! Dakka preds are great but I 'd rather have attack bikes. The whirlwind is great ...for indirect. Anything else = dead whirwind. Devs are nice but seem more suited to a boring gunline. Land raiders are wonderful but (with all the AT out there) not so hot unless you have at least 2 and 500+ points of termies to throw in them.

There aren't any sternguard-like units in the HS slot. Maybe that'sjust game balance.

Sanctjud wrote:Not to try and go off topic, but is it only me?
The Hvy support is numerous, but nothing screams 'need'. This could be a good thing, but I'm talking about the: I'd rather get somthing else feeling from the hvy support options...

I could see that but its strongly balanced by everything being so cheap (especially in comparison to Chaos).

Dakka Predator is 15 points less
Combi-Predator is 10
Vindicator is 10 at stock and 20 after upgrades on both
Whirlwind and TFC are both 100 points or less

You may not need it but is cheap enough to fit in just in case

p.s. Land Raiders are more expensive but they're actually quite usable compared to glorified assault ramps for Chaos

Dakka Pred, mobility + firepower is good

ender502 wrote:

Sanctjud wrote:Not to try and go off topic, but is it only me?
The Hvy support is numerous, but nothing screams 'need'. This could be a good thing, but I'm talking about the: I'd rather get somthing else feeling from the hvy support options...

I know what you mean. I think there are roles for all the units but they aren't so great as to say "must have!" I love vindies but I erally question whether they are worth it unless you are taking 3! Dakka preds are great but I 'd rather have attack bikes. The whirlwind is great ...for indirect. Anything else = dead whirwind. Devs are nice but seem more suited to a boring gunline. Land raiders are wonderful but (with all the AT out there) not so hot unless you have at least 2 and 500+ points of termies to throw in them.

There aren't any sternguard-like units in the HS slot. Maybe that'sjust game balance.

What do you mean by Sternguard-like?

Thunderfires all the way for me! 4 blasts means 1 bad scatter roll won't eliminate the threat. Strength 6 is very easy to roll wounds for. The airburst shot makes lootas in cover and eldar pathfinders cry! I almost never use the tremor shot though. Plus the ability to make a ruin have a plus 1 cover save and if the gun dies you have a techmarine walking around flaming & powerfisting things with a 2+ save is fun. Also 60 inches is pretty damn far!

Whirlwinds are good but the lack of 13 armor up front hurts.

Dakka preds are great, but if I want an immobile shooting unit I'll stick with my thunderfire in cover over a dakka pred.

The Thunderfire Cannon is amazing. Particularly if you have a ruin in your DZ that you can fortify to give it a 3+ cover save.

It's nasty against hordes, and even Space Marines have a hard time saving all of the wounds that the strength 6 blast can put on them.

Fetterkey wrote:

ender502 wrote:

Sanctjud wrote:Not to try and go off topic, but is it only me?
The Hvy support is numerous, but nothing screams 'need'. This could be a good thing, but I'm talking about the: I'd rather get somthing else feeling from the hvy support options...

I know what you mean. I think there are roles for all the units but they aren't so great as to say "must have!" I love vindies but I erally question whether they are worth it unless you are taking 3! Dakka preds are great but I 'd rather have attack bikes. The whirlwind is great ...for indirect. Anything else = dead whirwind. Devs are nice but seem more suited to a boring gunline. Land raiders are wonderful but (with all the AT out there) not so hot unless you have at least 2 and 500+ points of termies to throw in them.

There aren't any sternguard-like units in the HS slot. Maybe that'sjust game balance.

What do you mean by Sternguard-like?

Sternguard do everything. They are an easy choice to do just about whatever you want. Alpha strike? Sternguard. Deal with hoards? Sternguard. Monstrous creatures? Sternguard. The only difficult thing about them is transport. pods are great but are too variable about when they come down. Sternguard are an easy and obvious choice for an army to take. There's nothing that obvious..or good..in the HS.

ender502

I'm really unimpressed with Sternguard.

The Alpha Strike option can be avoided by putting stuff around your priority targets.

I've killed 18 Ork boyz in one volley with the TFC after they consolidated out of an assault. I don't think anything else in the Codex can do that...

I play all bikers with 2x thunderfire as the only non-biker units. I felt that I needed something to take care of stuff like Lootas, pathfinders, HWS etc. Backfield firesupport and objective holders that often rely heavily on cover. The thunderfire is very effective against them, and it also performs decently against MEQ, dealing enough wounds to take out some of them each turn, and it can harrass light armour. 4 S6 shots against a rhino, warwalker etc should be able to leave a mark.

You do need a ruin, or they will probably die fast. Luckily for me, almost every table I play on has some form of ruins, so I can fortify it for a nice 3+ coversave. That coversave coupled with the long range has allowed them to live for long enough to do horrible damage on the opponent. Remember that if the techmarine is in cover, half the unit is in cover, so you get the nice 3+ for your cannon easily.

You guys are kinda making my mind up for me..... Now all I need are a coiuple of tech marines and to scratch build a thunderfire... Fun.

I don't know...my Attack Bike squadrons have done crazy well killing Lootas, pathfinders, HWS in hand to hand.

Without ruins the die fast, period. And that reliance...sucks IMHO. If it can shoot the lootas/pathfinders/HWS it's most likely be a viable target itself.

Then there is the possibility of giving up 2 KPs with it.
The horror of it dying to bolter fire easier than any other Hvy support choice.

40K has moved towards: transports, DS, turboboost, outflank, etc. Stuff MOVES these days.
Fragile Static elements are a questionable thing in general, esp. in a list that will most likely not invest in static forces, else be vulnerable to the same tactics they use on other forces.

I'm a big fan of the Thunderfire cannon. Its small enough that a screen of marines can obscure it, the range lets it hit any target it can see and it puts out a devestating amount of wounds as you can wound anything T4 and below on a 2+. It absolutely murders light infantry with its airburst rounds and still does well against TEQs and MEQs through the sheer number of wounds a ST6 shot can output. The BS4 helps to greatly reduce scatter and the Tech-Marine provides some nice ancilliary bonuses, such as Bolster Defenses. I don't see how it could give up 2 KPs as the unit consists of 1 vehicles and 1 tech marine and you need to kill both to get a single KP. I usually run mine with 2 AB squadrons (1 of MMs, 1 of HBs), a Predator with lascannons and a Vindicator as the support options. This usually leaves alot of target saturation and the cannon doesn't draw the volume of fire you would expect.

Thunderfires don't give up two KPs?

As for survivability, one good technique I've found is to use a vehicle to screen the cannon, then move it out to fire your initial barrage while still restricting the enemy's lines of sight. This greatly reduces the number of weapons that can be fired at the cannon. The 60" range also helps prevent enemies from targeting you effectively. Finally, Thunderfires are effective even against MEQs thanks to the sheer torrent of fire effect-- in a recent tournament game, my Thunderfire Cannon killed an entire six-man Long Fang unit in one volley. To be fair, they were bunched unnecessarily, but very few other units in the Space Marine Codex can accomplish similar feats, especially not at long range.

ender502 wrote:You guys are kinda making my mind up for me..... Now all I need are a coiuple of tech marines and to scratch build a thunderfire... Fun.

That's what I did. Well, started doing. I really need to dig that project out again. Thunderfire isn't pretty (have some WIP shots in my gallery), but you can tell what it is. Techmarine I have doesn't have the full servo-harness, so I'll need to cobble some extra gubbins together for him. I have a magnetized pred and an old-school whirlwind I got for cheap in an auction, so I have the luxury of being able to try all 3. Maybe I should take one of each in a friendly game, dig in my troops, then open fire and see which hits the hardest and survives the longest. That should be fun and finally give me a reason to break out that blast template!