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I'm currently in the planning stages of building a 2000 point Tomb Kings army (yes, I may be insane).

The one thing I've noticed is that most of the various Tacticas on this here interweb thingy say to avoid Ushabti. However, one of the main reasons I'm interested in starting Tomb Kings in the first place is that I love the Ushabti models and so would like to include at least one unit, if not two. So I figured I'd turn to the dakkadakka brain trust and seek a few answers.

1. How effective/efficient are Ushabti for their points costs?

2. Is one large unit better than two smaller units?

3. What is the most effective unit size?

4. What type of enemies should the Ushabti be going after?

I'm thinking of running a unit of 5 or 6, so I have special slots remaining for 2 Tomb Scorpions and a unit of Tomb Guard, but am very much open to flexibility.

Edit: Spelling

Good on you for liking the models. Couple points:

1. They're okay, but a lack of static res, coupled with okay weapon skill and mediocre toughness makes them a bad choice to run into fully ranked up units head on.

2. Generally they are used in the MSU style and into an enemy flank or rear, so smaller units are generally better. Any more than 3 wide and you won't get models into contact.

3. Usually 3 - maybe 4 in a pinch. I've never seen them ranked up and used effectively.

4. They don't count as having great weapons, so Str 6 is decent enough for just about anything. Once again though - I would generally use them as a flanking unit, which works out decently when you can use incantations to get them extra movement similar to VC's dance.

Best advice - the codex may be getting redone in May timeframe, so I would hold off until then.

Ushabti are better than all but 2 of the other ogre sized type units. They should always get the charge, and more often than not strike first with better initiative. They absolutely wreck face when dealing with ogre models.

Then after that, they overrun and are in the rear, and there isn't a unit in the game they can't beat if they charge the rear with 12 str6 attacks.

If you can get the charge on cavalry they also wreck face against all but the best of the best.

My favorite use for Ushabti is to put them on a flank with some light cavalry, and use the light cav to angle my opponents cav unit and flank the heavy cav with my ushabti.

Don't let the nay-sayers fool you. Ushabti are a brilliant unit, Don't leave home without a unit of 4 in your balanced/well rounded armies. The super shooters can go without them, and the super fast armies may or may not take them compulsively. Construct armies need 2 units of them on average.

A unit of 4 is great.

They work particularly well on the end of a TK battle line but a liche priest near enough to cast onto them is essential as they become real monsters in combat then.

Think of them as Ogres with GWs, without the strike last rule.

ZF-

They key to Ushabti is the 15" threat range. You outthreat all other Ogre sized base models (most threat 12", and the fastest 14").

Take them 4 strong and don't look back. You can run into the front of all but the meanest enemy unit. WS 4 is precious in a TK army, it means most foes hit you on 4's instead of 3's. That's rare. Also, it means you hit enemy monsters/ogres/unskilled troops on 3's.

I've played TK's competitively many times. Ushabti have never missed a game. I take at least one unit of 4, and occasionally 2, and they are frequently MVP's.

So the consensus seems to be to run at least a unit of 4. Can someone help me figure out where to get 65 points from in the list I have linked in order that I might fit another Ushabti in.

I personally would actually go for 5. This allows you to lose a model and still be at peak effectiveness. It also allows you to lose a round of combat, take a couple wounds, and still fight at top strength (vs being ground down to nothing as you lose combat strength).

In your list I would one of the skeleton units to pay for them.

That would leave me below the minimum 4 Core units, cypher.

I don't know what's in your list, to help you change it around...

I do have this to say though:

The fact that your admidting that you would be taken below 4 core units, in what would have to be a 3k list for Tomb Kings, REALLY bothers me. The most successful Tomb Kings lists live and die with their core. The other stuff is just butter, Loading up on specials and rares as your clutch units causes you to have an over abundance of magic, and nowhere to spend it. You want just the right amount of magic, and about 100 options for it.

Ragnar4 wrote:I don't know what's in your list, to help you change it around...

Well it was linked, but for those too lazy to click:
LORD
Tomb King
Flail of Skulls
Scorpion Armour
--
255

HEROES
Liche Priest
Cloak of the Dunes
Hieratic Jar
--
160

Liche Priest
Dispel Scroll
Dispel Scroll
--
165

Liche Priest
Dispel Scroll
Dispel Scroll
--
165

CORE
15 Skeleton Warriors w/Bows
--
120

15 Skeleton Warriors w/Bows
--
120

15 Skeleton Warriors w/Bows
--
120

15 Skeleton Warriors w/Bows
--
120

SPECIAL
19 Tomb Guard
Champion
Musician
Standard Bearer
Icon of Rakaph
--
298

3 Ushabti
--
195

Tomb Scorpion
--
85

Tomb Scorpion
--
85

RARE
Screaming Skull Catapult
Skulls of the Foe
--
110

TOTAL: 1998

I do have this to say though:

The fact that your admidting that you would be taken below 4 core units, in what would have to be a 3k list for Tomb Kings, REALLY bothers me.

2K, just like I say in my initial post above.

The most successful Tomb Kings lists live and die with their core. The other stuff is just butter, Loading up on specials and rares as your clutch units causes you to have an over abundance of magic, and nowhere to spend it. You want just the right amount of magic, and about 100 options for it.

This is precisely why I'm posting on DakkaDakka for advice.

You're going to find that most of us are very polarized on Tomb Guard. About 50% of us love them, the rest of us hate them, what's worse is the differing philosophies that you'll meet with army construction.

Just FYI, I'm in the "I hate Tomb Guard" camp. The Khemerians want to win combat, out number and force their opponent off all but 1/36 times. They need to achieve this goal as cheaply as possible. Tomb Guard are FAR from cheap.

1) I am NOT a fan of the stand around and shoot my opponent to bits while he marches at me philosophy, that having been said. You're missing out on the most important elements of that type of list. Very Rarely will I recommend a Casket of Souls, this is one of the few times I recommend one.

2) The second scorpion is redundant. 3 Carrion will also gank lone mages, warmachines, etc etc, but they are much faster and can produce a strategy that is disgusting. Let's say you have one carrion left, and you've managed to break one of your opponents super expensive units of Chaos knights, with a Lord, on a juggernaut, and a sorcerer. 800 points of crap in that one unit. That one carrion, during your movement phase lands 1 inch away from the uberunit. Then you get as much magic next to those carrion as possible. Then you cast, cast, and cast again. You want the carrion to charge the 800 superman unit. If it goes off. 1 24 point carrion just killed 800 points of superman unit. The unit cannot roll high enough to escape.. ever.
This manouvre alone justifies carrion 100% of the time in every list you ever write. Drop a scorpion for it. Your opponent will think you're less cheesy, and you'll be better off for it.

3) You have one too many characters. Drop a liche priest. Also drop one unit of skeleton archers. With the points found, get another unit of RnF skeleton troops.
The idea is to go opposites. One unit of bowmen, one unit of troops, then bowmen, then troops, then bowmen, then ushabti. This system will allow you to flank your opponent very often. The back of the TK book shows the most successful army layout to achieve this strategy.

This list, looks like it would be a world beater, putting 60 arrows a turn into the air, the problem is, anyone with a tactical mind will seek out to minimize your shooting ability, and come at you from angles that only allow one or two turns of shooting from wierd angles, and then they'll sweep you off the board. In this type of army it's also very hard to protect your heirophant, anyone committed to hunting him down will be successful more often than not.

Good luck with your list.

chaplaingrabthar wrote:
Well it was linked, but for those too lazy to click:
LORD
Tomb King
Flail of Skulls
Scorpion Armour
--
255

HEROES
Liche Priest
Cloak of the Dunes
Hieratic Jar
--
160

Liche Priest
Dispel Scroll
Dispel Scroll
--
165

Liche Priest
Dispel Scroll
Dispel Scroll
--
165

No need for that many scrolls. 2 should be enough for most games. I'd advise mounting on steeds the non-flying priests as they are faster that way. Instead of the 2 scrolls of other priest, I'd probably give him staff of ravening instead. The scorpion armor is imho lackluster. A better item combo for the king on foot would be destroyer of eternities+collar of shapesh, or flail of skulls+golden ankhra.

CORE
15 Skeleton Warriors w/Bows
--
120

15 Skeleton Warriors w/Bows
--
120

15 Skeleton Warriors w/Bows
--
120

15 Skeleton Warriors w/Bows
--
120

Firstly, don't count on skeleton bows achieving much, even if you have this many guys shooting. In addition these units look awfully soft. I'd rather have 2 units of 20 bows with command for better static combat resolution when I need it and take some support unit for my 3rd core (such as 5 fast cav,3 chariots or some tomb swarm).

SPECIAL
19 Tomb Guard
Champion
Musician
Standard Bearer
Icon of Rakaph
--
298

3 Ushabti
--
195

Tomb Scorpion
--
85

Tomb Scorpion
--
85

RARE
Screaming Skull Catapult
Skulls of the Foe
--
110

If you downsize the core a bit, you may have points for 4rd ushbati (you could drop skulls from the 'pult too). I'll second what others have said about the ushbati. They are good albeit expensive heavy hitters and make most out of the righteous smiting & urgency. The shooting/mm attention they get can be migitated somewhat by healing their casualties up. The reason why one might not see them often on the playing field is that tk special slots are awfully crowded (scorps,tg,carrion all being quite useful) and, in 2k particulary, points being scarce.

Only need three core units in 2k pts.

4 core only comes into account at <2k.

Can't believe I misread the chart for number of cores!

Anyhow, I'm working on restructuring the list almost entirely, based on some of the advice here.

This is what I now have:

LORD
Tomb King
Flail of Skulls
Golden Ankhra
--
260

HERO
Liche Priest
Cloak of the Dunes
Hieratic Jar
--
160

HERO
Liche Priest
Skeletal Steed
Neferra's Plaques of Mighty Incantations
--
153

HERO
Liche Priest
Dispel Scroll
Dispel Scroll
--
165

CORE
19 Skeleton Warriors w/ Hand Weapons & Shield
Champion
Musician
Standard Bearer
Banner of the Undying Legion
--
202 (The Tomb King leads this Unit)

CORE
10 Skeleton Warrior w/Bows
--
80

CORE
20 Skeleton Warriors w/Hand Weapons & Shields
Champion
Musician
Standard Bearer
--
185

CORE
10 Skeleton Warrior w/Bows
--
80

SPECIAL
Tomb Scorpion
--
85

SPECIAL
4 Ushabti
--
260

SPECIAL
Tomb Scorpion
--
85

SPECIAL
3 Ushabti
--
195

RARE
Screaming Skull Catapult
--
90

4 Characters: 738pts (36.90%)
4 Core: 547pts (27.35%)
4 Special: 625pts (31.25%)
1 Rare: 90pts (4.50%)

TOTAL: 2000pts

I think the only reason not to take them is if you REALLY like the cavalry units or you want to cast your spells on something else. Otherwise, especially since you are not taking a Giant I think they are a great choice. Ushabti, the Scorpions and Giants all basically serve the same role, hard hitting close combat. Ushabti are only T4.

And yes they are sweet models.

Excited about Tomb Kings in May I thought it would be 2011.

Tacobake wrote:I think the only reason not to take them is if you REALLY like the cavalry units or you want to cast your spells on something else. Otherwise, especially since you are not taking a Giant I think they are a great choice. Ushabti, the Scorpions and Giants all basically serve the same role, hard hitting close combat. Ushabti are only T4.

And yes they are sweet models.

Excited about Tomb Kings in May I thought it would be 2011.

The T4 is my main concern with them. I would argue that Scorpions perform a different role, more in line with the mage hunting methodology of Carrion, thanks to their "It came from below!" rule.

If you don't use the it came from below rule, they are an effective counter charge unit. Since that is generally what ubshabti are used for, they have similar uses.

notabot187 wrote:If you don't use the it came from below rule, they are an effective counter charge unit. Since that is generally what ubshabti are used for, they have similar uses.

True, but why on earth would one not take advantage of "It came from below!?"

Sometimes its better to have that threat out and apparent right from the start. Or you can't afford any unpredictability.

I've certainly seen it happen.

RZ