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I ran into an interesting situation during a tournament a while ago...

The boarding plank in the ork codex is a piece of wargear that you can attach to ork vehicles. It lets a single embarked ork make its close combat attacks against an enemy vehicle "as if disembarked and charging" without having to disembark as long as neither vehicles has moved more than 12".

IE, you drive up next to a vehicle, drop four STR9 powerklaw attacks on it and explode it without the boyz unit taking casualties from the explosion or worrying about a counterassault from the enemy inside.

A dreadnought counts as a vehicle, and when you make your attacks as if disembarked and charging (IE, you get furious charge and +1 for assaulting) you pit your weapon skill against their weapon skill. My opponent didn't think it was fair that his dreadnought wouldn't get to swing back. I said that the ork is embarked in a vehicle, and you can't hurt him. He also thought that an exploding vehicle should hit the ork.

The judge ruled in my favor because you don't enter close combat, you just take your attacks and stay in the vehicle....but it seems a little hazy. Thoughts?

I might be wrong but a Dreadnought is a Walker and not a vehicle.

Yes, a walker is not a vehicle as such in an assault, as it has a weapon skill.

A dreadnought is a walker, which is a vehicle. In fact, if you look at page 72 of the rulebook, it identifies walkers as vehicles in the first sentence, noting that instead of wheels or tracks, they have mechanical limbs....which is why they are walkers.

Boarding planks work against enemy vehicles, not against non-walker enemy vehicles. I'd rather this not turn into a discussion about whether you can boarding plank a walker - because the rules pretty clearly say ya can.

Rather, what happens when you do.

*EDIT* And here's some great exerpts to keep us away from that route...


"While other vehicles can only move int he Movement phase, walkers can also run...."

"When firing at a walker, work out which of its Armour Values to use as you would for any other vehicle..."

""roll for armor penetration and damage as for a vehicle..."

"Each roll made on the Vehicle Damage table against the walker..."

"Squadrons of walkers follow all normal rules for vehicle...."

Alright, then what prohibits the Walker from attacking back? Also in what phase is this item used? Movement? Shooting? Assault?

My friends and I play it exactly the way in which your predicament was ruled, Dash. It may seem harsh, sure... but he should keep his Dreadnought out of your way!

IMHO if a unit is making close combat attacks against a vehicle "as if disembarking and charging" it seems to me that all the normal rules would apply.

In that case the rules for making close combat attacks against a vehicle that happens to be a walker is that you have to roll against its weapon skill and it can attack you back (and if it's initiative is higher that means your nob might get his but knocked the heck off the boarding plank).

Also since it is a single model you elect to make those attacks "as if disembarking and charging", I would hold that all wounds made upon the model by the walker would have to be allocated to that model itself, since it alone is charging.

That's my two cents but it is a very Grey area and it would def be something to clear up beforehand

Only one model is "making attacks as if in close combat", the other is not.

The Dradnought does NOT get to make attacks back. Please search, this has come up before....

nosferatu1001 wrote:Only one model is "making attacks as if in close combat", the other is not.

The Dradnought does NOT get to make attacks back. Please search, this has come up before....

nosferatu1001 is spot on here

Agreed. I'd imagine it as a sort of hit-and-run. The Ork leans out and takes a swipe at the Dread, then ducks back into the Trukk before it can hit back.

Ok I did search... and no where in that thread was it even close to proven that the dread doesn't make any attacks back. In fact, the only proof I took from that thread was that GW feels that you shouldn't be able to even MAKE boarding plank attacks vs. Dreadnoughts.

So my previous statement stands, if you have to make attacks exactly as if you disembarked and were attacking, and you can do it to a dread, then there's absolutely no reason (yet stated at least) that the dread shouldn't make its attacks back (just like if you were assaulting a tau tank with its anti cc ability you would be wounded on a 4+).

The only reason that an exploding vehicle wouldn't damage the nob in question, is that when the explosion is measured there is no model on the board to hit.

So, out of the two models that are in question, which is the model that "counts as if disembarked and assaulting" and which isn't?

Hint: one of them makes attacks, the other doesn't

If it makes you feel any better about it, INAT ruled exactly as you played it, Dash. I know INAT doesn't count as an authority per the YMDC tenets, but I certainly don't see anything in the rule that would imply that the walker gets to attack back nor that an exploding vehicle would put damage on the Nob.

I'd say you played it RAW.

Gwar! wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Please search, this has come up before....

nosferatu1001 is spot on here

Thanks for the help? Links please? I searched for "Boarding plank vs dreadnought" "Boarding plank vs walker" "boarding planks AND dreadnoughts" and came up empty, and was short on time before leaving the house so made a post.

Dashofpepper wrote:Links please?

Isn't "Gwar! said so" good enough for you young folk today? Bah, Humbug! HUMBUG I SAY!

Adamah wrote:Ok I did search... and no where in that thread was it even close to proven that the dread doesn't make any attacks back. In fact, the only proof I took from that thread was that GW feels that you shouldn't be able to even MAKE boarding plank attacks vs. Dreadnoughts.

So my previous statement stands, if you have to make attacks exactly as if you disembarked and were attacking, and you can do it to a dread, then there's absolutely no reason (yet stated at least) that the dread shouldn't make its attacks back (just like if you were assaulting a tau tank with its anti cc ability you would be wounded on a 4+).

The only reason that an exploding vehicle wouldn't damage the nob in question, is that when the explosion is measured there is no model on the board to hit.

Except for a couple of problems:

-The Ork swinging on the vehicle never gets out of the vehicle. You can't target a unit in a vehicle, so how can the dreadnought attack a unit embarked in a vehicle in close combat?

-The defender always chooses where to allocate wounds. Worst case, you'd swing back at the nob and I kill a boy in the trukk - but again, that breaks the rules too.

Aren't we supposed to take the path of least resistance, or what least breaks the rules? I can buy the idea of a nob taking a swing at the dreadnought that they're flying by, but not the dreadnought and the nob getting engaged in an epic close combat. If that were the case, the nob would be striking at I1 with the powerklaw, and the dread would kill the nob before the nob ever got to swing. That would make it an irrelevant piece of wargear....but this is a 5th edition codex.

Dashofpepper wrote:but this is a 5th edition codex.

Wrong. It's a 4th edition Codex. The First 5th edition one was Chaos Dæmons.

Dashofpepper wrote:
-The Ork swinging on the vehicle never gets out of the vehicle.

See, that's where my opinion on this differs from yours. I think a strict RAW reading of "as if the ork were disembarked and charging" makes me feel that for the purpose of resolving that attack the nob is out of the vehicle.

Also, this whole "taking a swipe at the dreadnought as they speed by" fluff argument (not that I mind fluff arguments) really doesn't make sense either because if that were the case then why does the nob have time to make all of his attacks and not just one swipe?

ALSO, the whole "would make the rule completely useless" argument is flawed as well because the most effective use of the boarding plank would be done at Initiative 4 just like a Dread (That is a Tankbusta Nob w/ Str 10 Tankhamma mounted in a battlewagon w/ boarding plank). Plus, its still effective other vehicles.

Finally, seeing (from reading other threads, as indicated, and here's the thread I found http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/224646.page#477576) as it appears its GW's intention for boarding attacks to not be allowed to be made on walkers (if the info in the thread is to be trusted), then for sheer balance issues if you're going to play by the rule it at least seems to be fair to me to allow the Dread a possible chance to shred a poorly prepared nob hanging out on the end of a boarding plank waiting to bash him.

"Allows a single embarked Ork to make its close combat attack against an enemy vehicle within 2" exactly as if the Ork were disembarked and charging."

Now let me alter the context slightly to show how silly the argument is.

"Allows a horse to run exactly as if its legs were on fire"

The horse doesn't suffer burns to its legs, the horse merely runs as if its legs were on fire. Likewise, the Ork gets to _attack_ as if it were disembarked and charging, but it doesn't disembark and it doesn't charge, it just gets the attacks, so there is no retaliation.

Simple simile use.

But the wording "as if the ork were disembarked and charging" tells us that the ork is NOT actually disembarked and charging. The rule could have said *the ork disembarks to attack the vehicle and then reenters the truk after his attack* but they decided to not write the rule that way. The ork doesnt actually disembark, so hes never a legal target for the dread to attack back.

Now GW's RAI may well have been something completely different, as we know that GW is not in the habit of writing what they mean at all times. In fact, we know from the little change they made to the SW faq that GW's RAI may change from week to week. But RAW does seem pretty clear on this one.


Sliggoth

PS Can hardly wait to see what they come up with for the tyranid faq, couple things in there that will be very interesting to see.

Shouldn't the Powerklaw attacks be at Strength 8 not 9, I may be wrong but wouldn't "exactly as if disembarked and charging" fall into the same category as Counter-Attack's "exactly as if they too had assaulted"?

the walker cannot attack back statement is pretty much like what happened to FC/CA statement in SW FAQ. first it says CA is a kind assault charge so it can triger FC. and then it says CA is not charge so it does not take the effect of defensive grenade. i am glad that they finally adjusted it.

so now you are saying that when nob assaults the vehicle by using boarding plank is disembarked and charging. when the walker attacks back, you say oh wait, my nob is not disembarked and not charging. it just sound weird.

and fluffy wise, ork is generally slow, i do not think they have agile to do that kind of hit and run move.

Drunkspleen wrote:Shouldn't the Powerklaw attacks be at Strength 8 not 9, I may be wrong but wouldn't "exactly as if disembarked and charging" fall into the same category as Counter-Attack's "exactly as if they too had assaulted"?

No, because of the parts you left off of those quotes. For the boarding plank, you get to attack as if you charged. For counter attack, you get the bonus attack exactly as if you had assaulted. The first does not cause you to become locked, and the second does not trigger furious charge.

Ok, so this is how i see it, and this is how i generally seen it ruled. The Ork zips in with the trukk/battlewagon/rock they put wheels on and a two by four. Then he pokes his claw out and hits something driving by a few times, swipes really. So technically by RAW he dosn't get counter hit, but he -does- go against the dreadnaughts weaponskill (not to shabby) then to pen he goes against the Armour facing he struck at (if the ork is useing theses Cheesy tactics then prolly rear or side)

Now, as i see it in my Head. i see the ork rig moving in at a fast speed with a nob holding onto a board lowered from the side of the rig, with a couple of grots holding onto his pants so he dosn't fall off as they bounce around crazy like, as he prepairs to hit a Dreadnaught. Now, looking at that image i have burned into most peoples heads, the dreadnaught see's him coming and raises his hand and crushes the thing flat. Or what if he misses big and the ork stabs him a bunch and he blows up? Or better yet what if the ork hits the thing, and does nothing, or rolls all on his roll (personally i find it orky to have the ork fall out of the battlewagon and be in b2b and in close combat with the vehicle/dreadnaught at that point, laughs all around)

But strickly RaW the Dreadnaught is a vehicle, the boarding plank just lets a model get a hit on it if it is within two, as if it was chargeing and attacking, this dosn't change the fact that if its just like "assualting" then he would go against the Dreadnaughts WS then Armour. just my opinion.


Also, i personally find this move kinda cheap, but thats me, and i tend to like fluffy more story orientated battles, but i don't get that often so i learned to deal that it -is- a good tactic to use as orks don't have -to- much Tank popping if you , you know, remove all those nobs + Pklaws!

dpredator666 wrote:
so now you are saying that when nob assaults the vehicle by using boarding plank is disembarked and charging. when the walker attacks back, you say oh wait, my nob is not disembarked and not charging. it just sound weird.

Correct. The Nob makes his attacks as if he disembarked and charged. The attacks are made. The dreadnaught is never called upon to make attacks, because the Ork is not actually assaulting, he's just making his attacks.

@Nightrave: He'd roll to hit against the front, unless the dread is immobilized, because again, he makes his attacks if assaulting, and that's how attacks are done in assault.

The critical words here are "AS IF" which you should all know as meaning an object or movement acting in such a way that it looks like it is doing something, however it never actually does it, so the ork gains all the benefits as if he was assulting and charging BUT he is not, therefore the drednaught will never act as the unit never made that assult or charge, but something like it.

just think about it.

another question, if ork uses boarding plank on a vhicle squad, the whole squad takes the damage right?

Sounds like a lot of people want to have their cake and eat it too.... And based on a VERY liberal interpretation of the RAW at that. If it came up in a tournatment I was running, I would rule for the least powerful interpretation, which is to let the Dread hit back against the individual model attacking him... If you want to play around with Dreads in CC, you take your chances...

Edit: crappy grammar

Beast - except that it is the correct interpretation.

Only *1* model counts as attacking. That is it. You cannot attack "back" as you are a) not attacking and b) there is no model in base contact with you to attack

You may not like the rule, but that is irrelevant.

Oh I see... Your $.02 is better than my $.02 because you say your interpretation is the correct one... Makes sense to me.