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*updated army list*


Hey folks!

I've posted a lot of advice and critiques in my time, but never an ork army list, mostly because I'm afraid of my beloved mechanized orks becoming a cookie-cutter list. I've preached so hard for their effectiveness though that its a common theme here now, which makes not posting my own list for critique of questionable use.

The only reason I post this now is because a discussion in another thread has me second-guessing myself, and with the biggest tournament I've ever been to coming up, I'd be interested in some feedback.


Total Points: 1,849

HQ: Ghazghkull Thraka + Ammo Runt
HQ: Big Mek with Kustom Force Field

Troop1: 18 Slugga Boyz + Nob/Powerklaw
Troop2: 12 Slugga Boyz + Nob/Powerklaw + Trukk/Reinforced Ram/Boarding Plank/Rokkit Launcha
Troop3: 12 Slugga Boyz + Nob/Powerklaw + Trukk/Reinforced Ram/Boarding Plank/Rokkit Launcha
Troop4: 12 Slugga Boyz + Nob/Powerklaw + Trukk/Reinforced Ram/Boarding Plank/Rokkit Launcha
Troop5: 12 Slugga Boyz + Nob/Powerklaw + Trukk/Reinforced Ram/Boarding Plank/Rokkit Launcha

Elite1: Snikrot + 3 Kommandos + 2 Kommando Burna Boyz
Elite2: 15 Burna Boyz

Fast Attack1: Deffkopta with twin-linked rokkits and buzzsaw
Fast Attack2: 2x Deffkoptas with twin-linked rokkits

Heavy1: Battlewagon/Reinforced Ram/Boarding Planks/Grabbin' Klaw/Big Shoota
Heavy2: Battlewagon/Reforced Ram/Grabbin' Klaw/Big Shoota


Ghazghkull + Troop1 go into Heavy1.
KFF+Burna Boyz go into Heavy2.
Deffkopta scouts/outflanks depending on who goes first.

Couple of notes:

1. I heartily believe in a synergy and a unified list. There are no Lootas in here because I don't want to split my forces. Another thread has me second-guessing myself on this one, and now I'm troubled. Deffkopta or Lootas? Or something different altogether?

2. This list is simple and works well together. I haven't been to any GTs yet (first one is coming up) but this list has won dozens of tournaments around the east coast. In fact, pretty much every game I've played in the last year.

3. I usually take big shootas on the trukks (minimalist view), but was reading a thread about rokkits on trukks...and I think random rokkits and extra potential anti-tank is critical in such a heavily mechanized meta-game. I haven't played with rokkits instead of big shootas yet, but I think the idea definitely has merit, which is why I stuck them into this list.

4. My anti-tank is the occasional rokkit, but in reality, my vehicles are delivery mechanisms for powerklaws across boarding planks. I have Ghazghkull for heavy-lifting and land-raiders, grabbin' klaws in case the job doesn't get done the first time, and a slew of trukks with boarding planks. Most common tactic against mechanized lists is to cross the table at full speed (losing a couple vehicles usually despite the KFF) and line my vehicles up against theirs for boarding plank attacks - whatever spills out doesn't get to counter-assault my boyz because they're still embarked, and if they assault my vehicles, I moved 7+ inches so they need 6+ to hit.

5. My battlewagons go side-by-side. If I lose one, the HQ from the lost wagon jumps into the other wagon and the boyz keep trundling forward. People usually go after my KFF first (smart) so I end up losing a few burnas in the process - while I love the burnas in normal games where I can use them, they're really my trump card against tyranid MCs and genestealers. Then again, there's a new codex out and this Saturday is dedicated to learning tyranids before the GT; I've got a friend headed to my house for a full day of food, booze, and hopefully showing me where my weaknesses are against new tyranids.

6. I've been using red paint job since always. I decided to take it out this time. Ghazghkull Thraka in a battlewagon has a 29" charge range potential on the turn he declares a Waaaugh! Slow and purposeful can effect that, but regular boyz have a 27" guaranteed charge range. Red paint gives that +1". Since the Waaaugh! is turn2+, a 12" deployment, 12" turn 1 move, there's only 24" left of the board to cover, which is inside that 27" without red paint. If I deploy first and my opponent deploys in the opposite corner....well, an extra 1" won't give me a charge, its going to be a turn3 charge anyway. Out of all the games I've played, I can't really recall many instances where 1" made a difference. I'm usually trundling up right next to the enemy, deploying out, using the Waaaugh! movement to position for optimal assault / multi-assault, then letting fly.

7. I have Deffrollas, and use them when allowed. They won't be for the venue that this list is for - the TO believes the rules allow for it, as do I...but he doesn't want to bog down the GT with people whining that it isn't fair. I can take it or leave it just as easily (think I've only ever killed a vehicle once with a deff-rolla); I'd only be irritated if I didn't know before hand, and made a list using them when it wouldn't be allowed.

All in all, I'm aiming for sleek, efficient, killy, and survivable. Despite having a mobile 4+ save (and when I lose vehicles, the subsequent craters/wreckage are 4+ saves, I still grimace about low-terrain boards because losing vehicles on the way up is inevitable, and moving boyz across the board on foot without cover is an abomination to Gork and Mork, who sacrifice warbosses as squigmeat when it happens.

My obvious weaknesses are heavily mechanized lists and land-raiders. I've taken all the precautions against both that I can think of, with the exception of subbing out snikrot or my burnas to give me tank-bustas...and I'm not convinced about that one in 1850. In 2k, I probably have tankbustas. In 2500, I absolutely have tank-bustas.

Comments, criticisms, and suggestions welcome.

You ask for comments, criticism, and suggestions... I didn't see where you asked for condemnation, but would that be OK, too? For instance, could I start off my review with, "I think the only thing I like in the entire post is 'hey, folks!' Outside of that, you have nothing that you can expect to use with any effectiveness in the entire list!"

Or should I just post your Yugioh card, Puss'n'hat? Seeing you doubt your list given the torrent of advice you give to others reminds me of the first time that I saw a 'softer side of Sears' commercial.

I cannot remember but does ghaz have a boss pole? If not would be useful on the nob in the 18 man unit.

See the thing is ghaz you've put him with a mob of boyz, if he stays with them then they move at his slowest rate, which is 3D6 as he is a I.C. Could work out, also might not.

I also tend to take shootas on my boyz, gives them fire power and as the wagon is open topped they can shoot out if you only move 6". This has come in useful for me as I've gunned squads down without getting out. Ok the slugga and choppa combo gets 1 extra attack, but do orks really need it? Even with a shoota you get 3 attacks each on the charge, which I find enough. I guess its swings and roundabouts as the shoota gets you a extra shot and range. Definately something to consider...why get out of your tank and put yourself at risk when you can shoot from 18" away?

In fact no nobz in the trukk units have boss poles, without them start taking damage and you could run off. Also, trukks are weak. Battlewagons are far better, I'd try and squeeze as many of these in as possible.

I just don't rate kommandos at all. I cannot see these doing anything to armour and only good at taking out infantry, if that. Just boyz really which can outflank and get stealth if I remember right.

lol I thought you didn't like rokkits? And all the times I suggested them you now take them. Change of heart of pot calls the kettle black?

1 deff kopter?

As regards to dethrollas, I've had the same thoughts myself. I could save myself 40 points and invest in something else.

Pretty sure also red pain job gives you that 1" extra but doesn't count towards that movement if that makes sense. So if you moved at cruising speed, then moving 7" because of red paint job will still mean hitting on 4's.

Assume you play against the space wolve razorback spam list and dont go first. Will you be able to survive 9 lascannon and 12ML shots on the first turn (assuming you are outside of 24" range so Im not counting plasmagun shots). I think this is the question that everyone needs to have an answer to going into an upcoming tournament.

DooDoo wrote:Assume you play against the space wolve razorback spam list and dont go first. Will you be able to survive 9 lascannon and 12ML shots on the first turn (assuming you are outside of 24" range so Im not counting plasmagun shots). I think this is the question that everyone needs to have an answer to going into an upcoming tournament.

I played against this in a tournament a couple of weeks ago. Spearhead deployment, with a frikkin' river between us and a bridge over it. 9 lascannon shots turns into 5-6 hits. 12 ML shots turns into 7-8 hits. KFF turns those lascannon shots into 2-3 hits, and the ML shots into 3-4 hits. Then we deal with whether they're shooting at trukks or battlewagons. Historically they go for trukks because they're an easier target, and I lose 2-3 of them (at least, that's what happens so far). If they go for battlewagons, AV14 with a 4+ save does its own thing.

I'm not saying that I have a magic bullet; my games against Space Wolves (and the guy I play is a pretty exceptional player) are very difficult, but I haven't yet been simply disembarked army-wide before piling into the enemy.

DooDoo wrote:Assume you play against the space wolve razorback spam list and dont go first. Will you be able to survive 9 lascannon and 12ML shots on the first turn (assuming you are outside of 24" range so Im not counting plasmagun shots). I think this is the question that everyone needs to have an answer to going into an upcoming tournament.

Nothing is ever certain, but the odds aren't bad for crossing the field. A lascannon has very little chance of destroying a battle wagon, and only marginally better for immobilizing. For that list, I'm assuming they are all shooting with a 3 ballistic skill:

9 lascannons

4.5 hits

0.75 penetrates, and 0.75 glances

Half will be blocked by 4+ cover save

Penetrates yield 0.25 immobilizes or higher, and glances yield 0.125 immobilizes or higher.

So the odds are that he will lose nothing from lascannon fire unless they targetted trukks instead, and the rest will plow in. I don't have stats on hand for the ML to run the numbers on what effect they would have. Given that most wise opponents would try to take out the KFF, presenting better targetting opportunities for post T1, there's a fair assumption that he will lose nothing prior to unloading the boyz.

mercer wrote:I cannot remember but does ghaz have a boss pole? If not would be useful on the nob in the 18 man unit.
See the thing is ghaz you've put him with a mob of boyz, if he stays with them then they move at his slowest rate, which is 3D6 as he is a I.C. Could work out, also might not.
In fact no nobz in the trukk units have boss poles, without them start taking damage and you could run off. Also, trukks are weak. Battlewagons are far better, I'd try and squeeze as many of these in as possible

Yes, he has a bosspole; its largely irrelevant though. My army is fearless when it counts...which is why the nobs don't have bosspoles. If I'm in close combat and I lose, leadership is the least of my worries with a 12 man unit. Ghazghkull rarely assaults with the boyz; he breaks off and does his own thing, preferably against terminators, big MCs, ICs + retinues....

mercer wrote:I also tend to take shootas on my boyz, gives them fire power and as the wagon is open topped they can shoot out if you only move 6". This has come in useful for me as I've gunned squads down without getting out. Ok the slugga and choppa combo gets 1 extra attack, but do orks really need it? Even with a shoota you get 3 attacks each on the charge, which I find enough. I guess its swings and roundabouts as the shoota gets you a extra shot and range. Definately something to consider...why get out of your tank and put yourself at risk when you can shoot from 18" away?

My army hinges around NOT moving only 6" per turn. I *need* to be in close combat on turn 2; turn3 at the latest if I end up at the opposite corner as my opponent. Yes...the orks really need that +1 attack. My playstyle and KoS style don't allow for lollygagging in the middle of the field tossing STR4 AP6 shots at stuff as killing power. If I want to shoot at a unit, I'll roll a battlewagon full of burnas up to it and drop 15 templates on them - other than that, I'm busting my butt to get close as fast as possible.

As for why getting out of my tank and putting myself at risk - trukks aren't well armored, and battlewagons aren't either once you're crossing the field and side armor is available. I *presume* I'm getting out one way or the other, and I prefer to do it voluntarily whilst screaming into the enemy than to get my ride shot out from under me.

mercer wrote:I just don't rate kommandos at all. I cannot see these doing anything to armour and only good at taking out infantry, if that. Just boyz really which can outflank and get stealth if I remember right.

Snikrot hits rear armor just fine, boyz can glance it with a plethora of attacks, and their *REAL* purpose is to present a threat against the rear table edge. I know you've seen the threads about Snikrot's utility and the countless arguments both ways.

mercer wrote:lol I thought you didn't like rokkits? And all the times I suggested them you now take them. Change of heart of pot calls the kettle black?

*shrugs* Maybe its your thread I'm referring to? I dunno. I think your analogy about the pot and kettle is misplaced though; wrong context. =p

mercer wrote:1 deff kopter?

That's right. If I go first, that's a first turn assault on a vindicator, or a longfang squad, or a loota squad, or whatever is going to grief me as I try crossing the table. If I don't go first, its an outflanking tool to assist me in dealing with something.

mercer wrote:Pretty sure also red pain job gives you that 1" extra but doesn't count towards that movement if that makes sense. So if you moved at cruising speed, then moving 7" because of red paint job will still mean hitting on 4's.

I pretty much have two speeds. 18" or 12". On turn2+ when I'm piling out to assault, its generally 8-12". In terms of assaulting my vehicles, this is an issue for when my vehicles are stacked up against enemy vehicles and I'm trying to blow up their vehicles with boarding planks. Pretty much certain that its a 12" move. If the enemy is crossing the table to ME, and I don't need 12" to get in...all the better. Assaulting my vehicles is fine - even if they kill it; it means that my boyz are safe and have a counter-assault next turn.

Carnuss wrote:
Nothing is ever certain, but the odds aren't bad for crossing the field. A lascannon has very little chance of destroying a battle wagon, and only marginally better for immobilizing. For that list, I'm assuming they are all shooting with a 3 ballistic skill:

9 lascannons

4.5 hits

0.75 penetrates, and 0.75 glances

Half will be blocked by 4+ cover save

Penetrates yield 0.25 immobilizes or higher, and glances yield 0.125 immobilizes or higher.

So the odds are that he will lose nothing from lascannon fire unless they targetted trukks instead, and the rest will plow in. I don't have stats on hand for the ML to run the numbers on what effect they would have. Given that most wise opponents would try to take out the KFF, presenting better targetting opportunities for post T1, there's a fair assumption that he will lose nothing prior to unloading the boyz.

Wolves, like marines, are BS 4.

DooDoo wrote:Wolves, like marines, are BS 4.

That's fine. It's still only clocking in at a 56.25% chance of taking the wagon out from under his KFF, which isn't great odds, and doesn't actually stop the bulk of his force from moving forward. Are the missle launchers also strength 8 and fired at BS4? If so, I'd assume they would be pegging trukks instead of wagons given that they can't do much to AV 14.

12 shots

8 hits

5.333 penetrates, 1.333 glances

2.666 penetrates pass cover, 0.666 glances pass cover

1.777 penetrates score immobilize or higher, 0.222 glances score immobilize or higher.

Those numbers start to tear down his numbers a bit, but he does still have 1 or 2 wagons and 3 trukks hitting the front line on turn 2, assuming he went first. The numbers get quite a bit worse if he's going turn 2 with only 1 wagon and 1 trukk hitting the front, with the rest of the boyz only coming in if they managed to crash within move+assault+Waaagh! range. Those numbers are further thinned by possible pinning and break checks caused by the explosion and fire leveled on units that fell out of their trukks...

Dashofpepper wrote:

mercer wrote:I cannot remember but does ghaz have a boss pole? If not would be useful on the nob in the 18 man unit.
See the thing is ghaz you've put him with a mob of boyz, if he stays with them then they move at his slowest rate, which is 3D6 as he is a I.C. Could work out, also might not.
In fact no nobz in the trukk units have boss poles, without them start taking damage and you could run off. Also, trukks are weak. Battlewagons are far better, I'd try and squeeze as many of these in as possible

Yes, he has a bosspole; its largely irrelevant though. My army is fearless when it counts...which is why the nobs don't have bosspoles. If I'm in close combat and I lose, leadership is the least of my worries with a 12 man unit. Ghazghkull rarely assaults with the boyz; he breaks off and does his own thing, preferably against terminators, big MCs, ICs + retinues....

mercer wrote:I also tend to take shootas on my boyz, gives them fire power and as the wagon is open topped they can shoot out if you only move 6". This has come in useful for me as I've gunned squads down without getting out. Ok the slugga and choppa combo gets 1 extra attack, but do orks really need it? Even with a shoota you get 3 attacks each on the charge, which I find enough. I guess its swings and roundabouts as the shoota gets you a extra shot and range. Definately something to consider...why get out of your tank and put yourself at risk when you can shoot from 18" away?

My army hinges around NOT moving only 6" per turn. I *need* to be in close combat on turn 2; turn3 at the latest if I end up at the opposite corner as my opponent. Yes...the orks really need that +1 attack. My playstyle and KoS style don't allow for lollygagging in the middle of the field tossing STR4 AP6 shots at stuff as killing power. If I want to shoot at a unit, I'll roll a battlewagon full of burnas up to it and drop 15 templates on them - other than that, I'm busting my butt to get close as fast as possible.

As for why getting out of my tank and putting myself at risk - trukks aren't well armored, and battlewagons aren't either once you're crossing the field and side armor is available. I *presume* I'm getting out one way or the other, and I prefer to do it voluntarily whilst screaming into the enemy than to get my ride shot out from under me.

mercer wrote:I just don't rate kommandos at all. I cannot see these doing anything to armour and only good at taking out infantry, if that. Just boyz really which can outflank and get stealth if I remember right.

Snikrot hits rear armor just fine, boyz can glance it with a plethora of attacks, and their *REAL* purpose is to present a threat against the rear table edge. I know you've seen the threads about Snikrot's utility and the countless arguments both ways.

mercer wrote:lol I thought you didn't like rokkits? And all the times I suggested them you now take them. Change of heart of pot calls the kettle black?

*shrugs* Maybe its your thread I'm referring to? I dunno. I think your analogy about the pot and kettle is misplaced though; wrong context. =p

mercer wrote:1 deff kopter?

That's right. If I go first, that's a first turn assault on a vindicator, or a longfang squad, or a loota squad, or whatever is going to grief me as I try crossing the table. If I don't go first, its an outflanking tool to assist me in dealing with something.

mercer wrote:Pretty sure also red pain job gives you that 1" extra but doesn't count towards that movement if that makes sense. So if you moved at cruising speed, then moving 7" because of red paint job will still mean hitting on 4's.

I pretty much have two speeds. 18" or 12". On turn2+ when I'm piling out to assault, its generally 8-12". In terms of assaulting my vehicles, this is an issue for when my vehicles are stacked up against enemy vehicles and I'm trying to blow up their vehicles with boarding planks. Pretty much certain that its a 12" move. If the enemy is crossing the table to ME, and I don't need 12" to get in...all the better. Assaulting my vehicles is fine - even if they kill it; it means that my boyz are safe and have a counter-assault next turn.

I thought Ghaz had a pole but I wasn't 100% sure. Your army isn't fearless permently. Those trukk boyz will be the first to flee, kill just 4 (which isn't hard) and your down to leadership 7 and taking a test. The wagon boyz will last longer. A unit of flamer imperial guard veterans with a hull mounted flamer will mulch through a unit of 20 boyz easily. Throw in a hellhound and they're toast, literally! lol.

A I.C on his own? Tactic will only last so long. Works to a degree, depends on luck I guess. Though assault terminators and retinues with one I.C is gonna end badly :(

I know that. But the added fire power does help, you pop a transport with your nob because of the boarding plank. You don't get shot of of your transport next turn, so you can gun them down with twice the shots instead of sluggas. Or if things are too dangerous to get out and no armour you only have infantry, you need to be within 12" to shoot them, with shootas you get a extra 6" range. Against the opponents I play against I sometimes have to get out and not due to my own choice! :(

Snitrot still needs a 4+ to glance and presuming 4+ to hit. Not a great tank killer. I have read about kommandos, I still don't think they're impressive.

Nope. I've often suggested taking rokkits to other people about there lists and you've often shot it down, so perhaps not pot calls the kettle black more more contradicting as you said don't take rokkits but now you..anyway doesn't matter about those. I presume you found a use for them anyway?

1 deff kopter doesn't threaten anybody. Your banking on doing damage with S7, sure got more strength than snitrot but its not something you can count on. You'll be lucky to pop anything with the rokkit, but better chances in assault against a vehicle, but still not 100% guranteed to wreck it. In assault against a unit the deffkopter more than likely die. Literally a suicide unit, I would take 3 of these in seperate slots, at least you know have triple chance and can target three seperate units - bonus is these take a lot of fire power to get rid off mainly because they either take anti tank to instant death or rob fire power from another unit which is just too much. Highly annoying, but take in multiples.

If your piling out the trukk to assault then why would anyone want to assault a empty lowly trukk for? The way you said it was if you moved 6" from my understanding.

Dashofpepper wrote:Hey folks!

I've posted a lot of advice and critiques in my time, but never an ork army list, mostly because I'm afraid of my beloved mechanized orks becoming a cookie-cutter list.

Hilarious. This is a standard ork mechanized list. Don't pat yourself on the back too hard.

Dash,

What is your response when someone uses skimmers to block your vehicles from getting through? Do you try to ram or go around?

I might be able to understand a 1 deffkopta distraction...but it's 70 frikkn points man! as far as distractions go, that's expensive! Alone, it's not quite as killy as it could be. even with a single wingman he'd be more threatening.

Otherwise, solid list it looks like, it should be able to charge across the table and smash things without too many problems.

mercer wrote:I thought Ghaz had a pole but I wasn't 100% sure. Your army isn't fearless permently. Those trukk boyz will be the first to flee, kill just 4 (which isn't hard) and your down to leadership 7 and taking a test. The wagon boyz will last longer. A unit of flamer imperial guard veterans with a hull mounted flamer will mulch through a unit of 20 boyz easily. Throw in a hellhound and they're toast, literally! lol.

Keep in mind that by the time his boyz are available to be shot at, they are in the opponent's grill. Moreover, they are fearless for the first turn that they are there. Since the klaw is the dangerous part of the unit, as long as his nob and a handful of boyz are remaining, he's moving into his next combat unhindered. From my experience playing with this playstyle, the turns subsequent to your initial assault are just a rolling assault phase that moves from one group of units to another.

61 boyz and 6 klaws smacking into a frontline will typically

1) win combat (meaning their unit size doesn't matter)
2) destroy whatever they come into contact with within 2 assault phases

That means regardless of what the unit size is, unless enough firepower is poured onto a unit to eliminate it and it's klaw, more likely than not the unit will be moving on and continuing to dish out pain.

While that only amounts to two groups of boyz with bonus klaws, they aren't alone, and have fire support from the burnas and back end support from the kommandos helping to eliminate any credible threat of counter assault or heavy anti-infantry fire.

If the opponent was heavy on artillery, then they will have eliminated a portion of his troops prior to arrival, and will be limited on responses once the orks are stuck in.

Alternatively, if the opponent had ineffective artillery or very little of it, but had more anti-infantry options, then it depends what kind of anti-infantry options they present. Heavy CC options can prove problematic, since he has no options for out-shooting the opponent. But with shooting anti-infantry, he should fair well.

I stand by my statement from previous threads that the number 1 threat to a list of this kind is plentiful anti-vehicle shots mixed with credible CC threats prepared for counter assault. That presents a mixture of threats that are difficult to answer with a KoS list regardless of how you try to field it. There are some issues with pinning down agile vehicles, as well, but not nearly as much difficulty introduced as outclassing you at your own game, which is close combat.

A good assault can easily claim 500 points of exposed enemies in a single turn with this list, and should result in a hobbled enemy. If Snikrot arrives on the same turn, even moreso. I would go with the list, and it should fair well against most opponents.

If anything, I might suggest dropping the kopta altogether and one trukk, then switching out for an additional wagon with a few extra boyz crowded into it. It makes your targets a slight bit harder, and therefore more resilient to the artillery doomsday scenario described with Wolves.

olympia wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:Hey folks!

I've posted a lot of advice and critiques in my time, but never an ork army list, mostly because I'm afraid of my beloved mechanized orks becoming a cookie-cutter list.

Hilarious. This is a standard ork mechanized list. Don't pat yourself on the back too hard.

You just took what I wrote out of context. Nicely done. If you read on, you'll see that after a year of making mechanized orks accepted around here and book-long threads critiquing lists to make them mechanized lists, my mechanized orks are now a cookie-cutter list...which is why posting my own variant of it is no longer an issue.

Reading comprehension ftw...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mercer, to address your concerns...

I don't need my army to be permanently fearless. I only need them fearless on the turn that I charge, and the following turn while we resolve combat; that's what Ghazghkull is for.

I.C on his own? This isn't an I.C, this is GHAZGHKULL THRAKA! G.H.A.Z.H.K.U.L.L T.H.R.A.K.A. Those are initials for something unholy and terrifying I'm sure. STR10, 7 attacks, 2++ save....I'm not afraid to throw him at anything by himself except for IG hordes, C'Tan weapons, and that's about it. When possible, I'll toss him into the other side of an assault as some of my boyz to make my opponent choose which to attack, and most of the time, Ghazghkull holds out just fine for a turn by himself, then I pile a victorious boyz unit into the back of whatever he's locked with, to make my opponent choose an even more difficult choice: Attack Ghazghkull who's now lost his 2++, or attack the tiny boyz unit that's bringing another powerklaw to the fight.

Ghazghkull isn't afraid of assault terminators or ICs with retinues. Except for Eldrad with a seer council doing the whole 3++/4++ rerollable thing, and similar units (relentless guardsmen, or whichever ones ignore combat resolution) - he won't get tangled up in that voluntarily. That's what burnas are for.

In terms of Snikrot against vehicles: You're right. He's not optimally designed to kill vehicles. Using him against rear armor is a last resort thing when he has no other target on the whole table. Like I said; his *real* utility isn't what he does on the table, its how my opponents react to his presence. That's why I bring him.

That lone deffkopta is a force multiplier. It doesn't win battles, and its probably not going to live through the whole battle...but I don't have the available points to take three fast attacks of them. If I were, what do you think I should drop to make room for them? My deffkopta is for tying up a Longfang squad in close combat until my army crosses the board. For assaulting a predator before it can shoot at me. For tieing up a heavy weapons team. A squad of Lootas.

Like I said; I'm open to input about what to change....you're criticizing, but not offering suggestions for change. How would you do it differently?

Dash, couple of things.

Armor Plates. I find them pretty much mandatory with a list like this. I *need* to keep moving every turn. A "Stunned" result means either a dead trukk next turn or more fire into the rest of the band.

Rokkits on trukks. I've thought long about this, but have decided against it (though I want to play test a little more). My trukks are always on the move, either to deliver the boyz or tank shocking with the ram after dropping them off. Or the trukks are dead. Either way, the gun is there just to soak up a "weapon destroyed" result. I would love to take the potshot at a fast enemy transport for sure, but the chance is so rare that I just live with out. Plus, not paying for the RL offsets some of the Armor Plates cost.

Kommandos. I love 'em, but have you played around with dropping the Kommando squad size down to closer to minimum? Basically, the way they've worked for me is that if my target's a vehicle, it's mostly about what Snikrot and his 6 re-rollable S6 attacks can do, and if it's an assault against anti-tank troops, it's about the burna templates and then Snikrot to buy a round or two. My boyz rarely contribute much unless I get into a more conventional assault which, to me, is a lesser use of the kommando. Yeah, I don't get to multicharge much, but even with auto-hits S4 doesn't often add up to much.

Plus, if you cut that unit down to 5 plus Snikrot and 2 burnas and it's 165 pts. Yes, it's a surefire suicide unit at this point, but it's a suicide unit more often than not anyway. This frees up 90 points which darn near gets you to upgrade a trukk mob to be 20 in a battlewagon. You can tweak the points or units, I'm sure.

Anyway, YMMV, but it's been the variant that I've been running more often. Snikky's still in there, you still have to watch for him, but it gives me that one more BW full of goons with a better shot of reaching the enemy.

Good luck in your tourney.

Dashofpepper wrote:

HQ: Ghazghkull Thraka
HQ: Big Mek with Kustom Force Field

Best two HQ's in the codex. So far so good.

Troop1: 18 Slugga Boyz + Nob/Powerklaw

Bosspole? Sure. Why not shoota boyz? Shooting 36 shots out of a battlewagon is win.

Troop2: 12 Slugga Boyz + Nob/Powerklaw + Trukk/Reinforced Ram/Rokkit Launcha
Troop3: 12 Slugga Boyz + Nob/Powerklaw + Trukk/Reinforced Ram/Rokkit Launcha
Troop4: 12 Slugga Boyz + Nob/Powerklaw + Trukk/Reinforced Ram/Rokkit Launcha
Troop5: 11 Slugga Boyz + Nob/Powerklaw + Trukk/Reinforced Ram/Rokkit Launcha

Yuk

Elite1: Snikrot + 14 Kommandos/2 Burna Boyz

I don't know what your metagame is like but if you expect vehicles Snikrot is usually terrible.

Elite2: 15 Burna Boyz

They are fine but probably overkill. If I run them I'd maybe run them smaller and put points elsewhere.

If your putting the KFF with them you're going to have a Wagon without a Klaw in it which is a missed opportunity. Maybe swap the Big Mek with Ghaz.

Fast Attack1: Deffkopta with twin-linked rokkits and buzzsaw

Yup I'd run at least one more of these to lower the odds of getting screwed on reserve rolls

Heavy1: Battlewagon/Reinforced Ram/Boarding Planks/Grabbin' Klaw/Kannon
Heavy2: Battlewagon/Reforced Ram/Grabbin' Klaw/Kannon

I'd add more rockitts since you have so little ranged firepower.

Couple of notes:

1. I heartily believe in a synergy and a unified list. There are no Lootas in here because I don't want to split my forces. Another thread has me second-guessing myself on this one, and now I'm troubled. Deffkopta or Lootas? Or something different altogether?

Your list has zero fire support which in my metagame means I lose the game on turn 1 or 2 when I have to eat shooting from 2 Manticores, 3 Hydras and 3 Vendettas with no means of killing any of them short a scouted deffkopta. KFF or not half my army is usually running off the table under this scenario and I have to counter it with something immediately.

2. This list is simple and works well together. I haven't been to any GTs yet (first one is coming up) but this list has won dozens of tournaments around the east coast. In fact, pretty much every game I've played in the last year.

I still think you're either grossly outplaying your opponents and/or play in a metagame where top tier lists don't exist. I can't imagine how your list stands up to a quality IG list or shooty WH or Marines.

3. I usually take big shootas on the trukks (minimalist view), but was reading a thread about rokkits on trukks...and I think random rokkits and extra potential anti-tank is critical in such a heavily mechanized meta-game. I haven't played with rokkits instead of big shootas yet, but I think the idea definitely has merit, which is why I stuck them into this list.

A lone bs 2 rockitt shot on such a fragile platform probably isn't worth sacrificing 6 inches of movement but I suppose it might be worth trying.

4. My anti-tank is the occasional rokkit, but in reality, my vehicles are delivery mechanisms for powerklaws across boarding planks. I have Ghazghkull for heavy-lifting and land-raiders, grabbin' klaws in case the job doesn't get done the first time, and a slew of trukks with boarding planks. Most common tactic against mechanized lists is to cross the table at full speed (losing a couple vehicles usually despite the KFF) and line my vehicles up against theirs for boarding plank attacks - whatever spills out doesn't get to counter-assault my boyz because they're still embarked, and if they assault my vehicles, I moved 7+ inches so they need 6+ to hit.

Boarding planks are great but I don't see how you can deliver that much damage if you aren't stopping your opponents fire support.

5. My battlewagons go side-by-side. If I lose one, the HQ from the lost wagon jumps into the other wagon and the boyz keep trundling forward. People usually go after my KFF first (smart) so I end up losing a few burnas in the process - while I love the burnas in normal games where I can use them, they're really my trump card against tyranid MCs and genestealers. Then again, there's a new codex out and this Saturday is dedicated to learning tyranids before the GT; I've got a friend headed to my house for a full day of food, booze, and hopefully showing me where my weaknesses are against new tyranids.

I considered running burnas in my most recent list as anti-nid tech but dumped them at the last minute for more troops. I still think I'll try to wedge them in to a larger list somewhere.

6. I've been using red paint job since always. I decided to take it out this time. Ghazghkull Thraka in a battlewagon has a 29" charge range potential on the turn he declares a Waaaugh! Slow and purposeful can effect that, but regular boyz have a 27" guaranteed charge range. Red paint gives that +1". Since the Waaaugh! is turn2+, a 12" deployment, 12" turn 1 move, there's only 24" left of the board to cover, which is inside that 27" without red paint. If I deploy first and my opponent deploys in the opposite corner....well, an extra 1" won't give me a charge, its going to be a turn3 charge anyway. Out of all the games I've played, I can't really recall many instances where 1" made a difference. I'm usually trundling up right next to the enemy, deploying out, using the Waaaugh! movement to position for optimal assault / multi-assault, then letting fly.


7. I have Deffrollas, and use them when allowed. They won't be for the venue that this list is for - the TO believes the rules allow for it, as do I...but he doesn't want to bog down the GT with people whining that it isn't fair. I can take it or leave it just as easily (think I've only ever killed a vehicle once with a deff-rolla); I'd only be irritated if I didn't know before hand, and made a list using them when it wouldn't be allowed.

We use INAT FAQ and in that ruleset deffrollas don't work on vehicles so I don't run them.

All in all, I'm aiming for sleek, efficient, killy, and survivable. Despite having a mobile 4+ save (and when I lose vehicles, the subsequent craters/wreckage are 4+ saves, I still grimace about low-terrain boards because losing vehicles on the way up is inevitable, and moving boyz across the board on foot without cover is an abomination to Gork and Mork, who sacrifice warbosses as squigmeat when it happens.

My obvious weaknesses are heavily mechanized lists and land-raiders. I've taken all the precautions against both that I can think of, with the exception of subbing out snikrot or my burnas to give me tank-bustas...and I'm not convinced about that one in 1850. In 2k, I probably have tankbustas. In 2500, I absolutely have tank-bustas.

Comments, criticisms, and suggestions welcome.

The best way to deal with mech spam is not tankbustas it is long range fire support: Lootas work wonders here.

LeperMessiah wrote:

Kommandos. I love 'em, but have you played around with dropping the Kommando squad size down to closer to minimum? Basically, the way they've worked for me is that if my target's a vehicle, it's mostly about what Snikrot and his 6 re-rollable S6 attacks can do, and if it's an assault against anti-tank troops, it's about the burna templates and then Snikrot to buy a round or two. My boyz rarely contribute much unless I get into a more conventional assault which, to me, is a lesser use of the kommando. Yeah, I don't get to multicharge much, but even with auto-hits S4 doesn't often add up to much.

Plus, if you cut that unit down to 5 plus Snikrot and 2 burnas and it's 165 pts. Yes, it's a surefire suicide unit at this point, but it's a suicide unit more often than not anyway. This frees up 90 points which darn near gets you to upgrade a trukk mob to be 20 in a battlewagon. You can tweak the points or units, I'm sure.

Anyway, YMMV, but it's been the variant that I've been running more often. Snikky's still in there, you still have to watch for him, but it gives me that one more BW full of goons with a better shot of reaching the enemy.

Good luck in your tourney.

Interesting concept. My fear here would be piling him into assault and not enough living to let the burnas get their shots in. Seems like my boyz are around to absorb two rounds of wounds so that Snikrot and the burnas can deliver their payload...

Dashofpepper wrote:Interesting concept. My fear here would be piling him into assault and not enough living to let the burnas get their shots in. Seems like my boyz are around to absorb two rounds of wounds so that Snikrot and the burnas can deliver their payload...

A fair point, which is one reason this small squad tends to focus on artillery and vehicles rather than infantry assault. Still, mathhammer a charge against a Tac squad or Devastators and you'll see you only lose a couple boyz on average. If you're worried, just bump it up a couple and you'll get your burna plus Snikrot charge.

Well, for me, Snik's job depends on which turn he enters. Turn two, nix anti-tank with extreme prejudice. Turn three, probably the turn my mechanized hammer strikes, he needs to eliminate/tie up anything that can hurt me AFTER assault: counter-attack units or anti-troop guns that might pound me if I'm standing in the open after the wreckage of 40-50 boyz plus characters doing their thing. Turn four or later, I've been ****ed by reserve rolls, so he tries to contribute where needed: mop up, tag a lone vehicle near a table edge, charge to contest an objective. The burnas are there just to give me options: torch something with low armor or hiding in cover (like a Loota squad) or use as power weapons against something like Devastators. I don't depend on them; Snikrot's the star.

To that end, he rarely uses his ambush on large melee units and I expect him to hit one target and probably die, which is ok because that means they've had to shoot/assault his tiny band of kommandos instead the large threat racing up the board. Distraction accomplished. If they ignore him to fight the larger menace, well, I've got Snikrot, two burnas, and nothing better to do. It's that whole "threat, but not too large of a threat" thing within the meta-game.

Like you've said, his other job, just by taking him in the list, is the psych factor of having to risk his assault if they set up within 12" of a table edge. A small unit of kommandos might not be taken seriously and give him a wealth of targets which I believe he can handle. The other part is that a small band of kommandos helps offset those couple of games where's there's not much he can contribute, such as against daemons that don't usually have anything lurking, don't have armor saves, and don't have any vehicles I want Snik to face.

Again, YMMV, but you might want to try it out. You already know what he can do with numbers, maybe he can still do it with less manpower.

Dashofpepper wrote:

1. I heartily believe in a synergy and a unified list. There are no Lootas in here because I don't want to split my forces. Another thread has me second-guessing myself on this one, and now I'm troubled. Deffkopta or Lootas? Or something different altogether?

Like you said you are not only gunna be in close combat turn 2 you pretty much HAVE to be. And you are gunna be tying up as much as possible I would assume. Now with a DeffKoptas leading the charge or outflanking he has the option of shooting but will most likely be assaulting something. If you run Lootas they are gunna be sitting on your backline getting LOS blocked by transports and/or trying to fire at the unit or two not in combat with your Boyz. If you taught me anything about Orks it's was synergy.

I personally dont like running just one Deffkopta but I understand it's effectiveness

i my self find bosspolls very very useful but as you stated before your not a fan of them.

dont see the rokkits or kannons being very useful traveling at max speed most of the time. lol i could see you getting use out of them after dropping off the boyz but i am going to try testing out deff rollas for that.(would really like to know your reasons for spending the points on them lol i may just lean something)

i am still trying to decide if i like Snikrot or not. yes every game i have used him did a good bit of damage but never makes it past the next shooting phase.

Deffkopta are another unit i am still unsure about. yeah they make good tank hunters but i just dont like giving away kill points.

sickening wrote:i am still trying to decide if i like Snikrot or not. yes every game i have used him did a good bit of damage but never makes it past the next shooting phase.

I'm not sure why everyone says that, but it seems to be a common theme. I one time killed 2 groups of genestealers and almost killed a carnifex with his group running solo in the back of the board in the same game. I would have gotten that big bug, too, if my opponent hadn't surrendered before he went down. Snikrot is as successful as you allow him to be. Particularly when he arrives on turn 3, he tends to just be an extension of your boyz, and functions in a completely useful way so long as you don't sacrifice him.

There are those games where it is better to sacrifice the Snik to save the whole, but it's not like that's his only use in the game.

Hrm....having realized that battlewagons aren't fast, I remember why I put big shootas on the battlewagons in the first place...simply as a place-holder to suffer a weapon-destroyed result. The kannons are going to have to come off; completely forgot about that one (can't shoot at 12"). I've been playing DE for a couple months now. In fact, I'd take DE to this GT, but I can't because they aren't finished painting / basing by a LONG shot. Not even all the vehicles are done.

I'm thinking about reducing Snikrot's squad in favor of another deffkopta too....

I don't really want to give up a unit of boyz and a deffkopta to simply bump a trukk into a battlewagon and increase the model count inside; I'd be giving up two rokkits and two powerklaws to get a harder transport? I'd rather have more killyness. The two battlewagons are only because I *need* Ghazghkull and the KFF mek up front, and there's two instead of one because all my eggs in one basket would be bad news.

Carnuss wrote:

mercer wrote:I thought Ghaz had a pole but I wasn't 100% sure. Your army isn't fearless permently. Those trukk boyz will be the first to flee, kill just 4 (which isn't hard) and your down to leadership 7 and taking a test. The wagon boyz will last longer. A unit of flamer imperial guard veterans with a hull mounted flamer will mulch through a unit of 20 boyz easily. Throw in a hellhound and they're toast, literally! lol.

Keep in mind that by the time his boyz are available to be shot at, they are in the opponent's grill. Moreover, they are fearless for the first turn that they are there. Since the klaw is the dangerous part of the unit, as long as his nob and a handful of boyz are remaining, he's moving into his next combat unhindered. From my experience playing with this playstyle, the turns subsequent to your initial assault are just a rolling assault phase that moves from one group of units to another.

Your presuming that those transports will make it across the board in one piece, they will not. Once the orks are out they will get shot and that will happen before they make it into the opponents face. You can do math hammer all day long, the game is still about dice rolls. Orks will take wounds and will run off, they need boss poles. My point is they're fearless only for a certain amount of time, ghaz's waaagh! is for one turn, thats it you won't be fearless army wide after that. You start losing boyz and you not fearless. Those transports will get popped and those boyz units will get chipped down.

Dashofpepper wrote:

Mercer, to address your concerns...

I don't need my army to be permanently fearless. I only need them fearless on the turn that I charge, and the following turn while we resolve combat; that's what Ghazghkull is for.

I.C on his own? This isn't an I.C, this is GHAZGHKULL THRAKA! G.H.A.Z.H.K.U.L.L T.H.R.A.K.A. Those are initials for something unholy and terrifying I'm sure. STR10, 7 attacks, 2++ save....I'm not afraid to throw him at anything by himself except for IG hordes, C'Tan weapons, and that's about it. When possible, I'll toss him into the other side of an assault as some of my boyz to make my opponent choose which to attack, and most of the time, Ghazghkull holds out just fine for a turn by himself, then I pile a victorious boyz unit into the back of whatever he's locked with, to make my opponent choose an even more difficult choice: Attack Ghazghkull who's now lost his 2++, or attack the tiny boyz unit that's bringing another powerklaw to the fight.

Ghazghkull isn't afraid of assault terminators or ICs with retinues. Except for Eldrad with a seer council doing the whole 3++/4++ rerollable thing, and similar units (relentless guardsmen, or whichever ones ignore combat resolution) - he won't get tangled up in that voluntarily. That's what burnas are for.

In terms of Snikrot against vehicles: You're right. He's not optimally designed to kill vehicles. Using him against rear armor is a last resort thing when he has no other target on the whole table. Like I said; his *real* utility isn't what he does on the table, its how my opponents react to his presence. That's why I bring him.

That lone deffkopta is a force multiplier. It doesn't win battles, and its probably not going to live through the whole battle...but I don't have the available points to take three fast attacks of them. If I were, what do you think I should drop to make room for them? My deffkopta is for tying up a Longfang squad in close combat until my army crosses the board. For assaulting a predator before it can shoot at me. For tieing up a heavy weapons team. A squad of Lootas.

Like I said; I'm open to input about what to change....you're criticizing, but not offering suggestions for change. How would you do it differently?

Thats my point about the boss poles. Ghaz's waaagh! is only for one turn, once its gone its gone. If those boyz take wounds they won't be fearless for long, they will flee, gurantee. Pop the transport and hose down the orks with mass flamer templates, I have lost 2 20 man ork units in one turn down to mass flamer templates from veteran guardsmen, chimeras and hellhounds - if I had bosspoles they wouldn't have fleed. Bosspoles are very useful and your orks are not indestructable. For 5 points they can save that unit for fleeing.

lol have you met a librarian with nullzone? Ok will you've got 2+ invulnerable, but only for one turn, again. After that he has no invulnerable save and can be instant killed with a demolisher template because he's running around on his own. I have 2 terminator squads in my 2k list with dual land raiders, can ghaz take them both? I think not because he has a invulnerable save for one turn only. So ghaz is afriad of terminators, just on on the first time he waaagh's. I think your making ghaz out to be more of a beast than he actually is, his problem is he lacks a invulnerable save full time.

Your deffkopter won't tie up a long fang squad, and if it does it would be for one turn. They only have 2 wounds and 4+ save, and who says your always going to be playing against space wolves to tie up long fang squads? Lootas should be in min units of 10, a deffkopter wouldn't tie any of those up apart from its own assault phase.

I've offered suggestions and they've fallen on deaf ears or I come up against a defensive wall. Also I thought my point about the deffkopter wouldn't need any explanation.

I've already suggested about shootas, reason more shots and further range so you don't need to get out and assault the enemy, or have them taken some damage. Also good for shooting from objectives, of course depends on objective locations. Even with 3 attacks on the charges thats a considerable amount, you'll probably get about 10 - 15 boyz in combat, depending on what your assaulting of course.

I've suggested about boss poles and given reasons why, though you seem really defensive about it. I cannot stress how much you need these. Your orks are not fearless full time, and will only regroup after ghaz has called his waaagh.

Another problem with this is list is it will suffer against a mech list. My guard army has 12 vehicles with 5 large blast templates and buckets of flamer templates. You don't have a lot at range which can bust my tanks, but I can take you out with multi lasers at range, demolisher shells and battle cannon shells for the hordes and mass flamer templates on all my vehicles and two squads of flamer veterans - ghaz would suffer against my dual CCS with plasma guns, no invulnerable save for the best (except waaagh!) means he will die pretty easily with ap2 plasma fire.

You definately need at least one deffkopter in there, however I would really got with 3.

Just FYI -

mercer wrote:Ok will you've got 2+ invulnerable, but only for one turn, again. After that he has no invulnerable save and can be instant killed with a demolisher template because he's running around on his own.

Not to nitpick, but he has eternal warrior. He won't be insta-gibbed by a single template of any kind, though the group of terminators would ruin his day as you said.

mercer wrote:Your orks are not fearless full time, and will only regroup after ghaz has called his waaagh.

Also, you are giving Ghaz's Waaagh! too much credit with this statement. His Waaagh! only effects units that are not currently fleeing.

Mercer, your ideas aren't falling on deaf ears. However, you're suggesting radical changes to my list and playstyle, when I'm looking for tweaks for efficiency. My style is to roll 12-18" across the field as fast as possible and get into close combat with assaulty orks. Yours is to roll 6" across the field and shoot, using the vehicles as protection platforms for your orks. Completely different playstyles.

Like the kannons on my battlewagons - wasted points. Dropping the kommando squad to make room for more other things - never thought of that before; its always been max size or nothing.

A note on Ghazghkull; I presume you've never used him before because you keep making mistaken guesses about what wargear he has, what he can or can't do...

Ghazghkull is T5. He normally has a 5+ invulnerable save, and he has an adamantium skull that ignores instant death. A battlecannon can't do more than wound him. I am *very* careful about what I throw Ghazghkull into, and I've made it very clear exactly how I use him and with what support - I don't fling him out there to die on his own, he's the most valuable model in my army. Remember, I've been at this pretty much same list for a year+, and have played it against pretty much every brand of army type - tomorrow is dedicated completely to a friend of mine with the new tyranids.

I won't throw Ghazghkull into a unit of genestealers, or anything that can throw ridiculous numbers of hits at me and overcome a 2++ by sheer weight of numbers, but he will single-handedly mince a terminator squad with lightning claws, or plague marines, or blood claws, or khorne berzerkers, or defilers, soul grinders, dreadnoughts, things that eat my boys up badly.

Originally, I ran Ghazghkull + a unit of 10 diversified nobs with 3 powerklaws. Over time, I realized that the two together were overkill in a combat, and I started disembarking them on opposite sides of their vehicle to go after different targets. Over time, I realized that the hevay-lifting that I really wanted from the nobs I was afraid to do with them because of the prevalence of power weapons and FNP ignoring stuff, so I removed them completely and used those points to pick up a second battlewagon, 18 boyz for Ghazghkull, and another squad of trukk boyz.

That's where I've evolved to now. I'm just trying to tweak now, just change my entire game.

I run a similar style of mech orks and that is why i asked my question about fast moving skimmers blocking my rush. I havent really figured out a way that it wont cost me a turn as none of my ork vehicles (trukks and bws) have a reliable way to take them down. I worry that the same thing can be done with cheap rhinos while long range fire power tears me apart. Isnt this the biggest weakness of this list? Not getting into assault quickly. I know it has been my biggest pain.

DooDoo wrote:I run a similar style of mech orks and that is why i asked my question about fast moving skimmers blocking my rush. I havent really figured out a way that it wont cost me a turn as none of my ork vehicles (trukks and bws) have a reliable way to take them down. I worry that the same thing can be done with cheap rhinos while long range fire power tears me apart. Isnt this the biggest weakness of this list? Not getting into assault quickly. I know it has been my biggest pain.

Boarding planks and grabbin' klaws. Skimmers can dodge out of the way of a ram with a 3+, and you can't board them if they moved more than 12"....but this would pretty much have to be a turn1 move, since I can cross the board by turn2. If someone jets all their skimmers up to block my progress on turn1...rejoice! Those lances aren't shooting at me, and LoS blocking is going to help my vehicles tremendously.

Well, I think he's talking more about landspeeders or piranha's, not so much Raiders and Wave Serpents.

Dashofpepper wrote:Mercer, your ideas aren't falling on deaf ears. However, you're suggesting radical changes to my list and playstyle, when I'm looking for tweaks for efficiency. My style is to roll 12-18" across the field as fast as possible and get into close combat with assaulty orks. Yours is to roll 6" across the field and shoot, using the vehicles as protection platforms for your orks. Completely different playstyles.

Like the kannons on my battlewagons - wasted points. Dropping the kommando squad to make room for more other things - never thought of that before; its always been max size or nothing.

A note on Ghazghkull; I presume you've never used him before because you keep making mistaken guesses about what wargear he has, what he can or can't do...

Ghazghkull is T5. He normally has a 5+ invulnerable save, and he has an adamantium skull that ignores instant death. A battlecannon can't do more than wound him. I am *very* careful about what I throw Ghazghkull into, and I've made it very clear exactly how I use him and with what support - I don't fling him out there to die on his own, he's the most valuable model in my army. Remember, I've been at this pretty much same list for a year+, and have played it against pretty much every brand of army type - tomorrow is dedicated completely to a friend of mine with the new tyranids.

I won't throw Ghazghkull into a unit of genestealers, or anything that can throw ridiculous numbers of hits at me and overcome a 2++ by sheer weight of numbers, but he will single-handedly mince a terminator squad with lightning claws, or plague marines, or blood claws, or khorne berzerkers, or defilers, soul grinders, dreadnoughts, things that eat my boys up badly.

Originally, I ran Ghazghkull + a unit of 10 diversified nobs with 3 powerklaws. Over time, I realized that the two together were overkill in a combat, and I started disembarking them on opposite sides of their vehicle to go after different targets. Over time, I realized that the hevay-lifting that I really wanted from the nobs I was afraid to do with them because of the prevalence of power weapons and FNP ignoring stuff, so I removed them completely and used those points to pick up a second battlewagon, 18 boyz for Ghazghkull, and another squad of trukk boyz.

That's where I've evolved to now. I'm just trying to tweak now, just change my entire game.

Bosspoles are not radical changes. Fair enough on the shootas though, each on to their own. Taking more than one deffkopter is just common sense

My isn't exactly like that either

Kannons are wasted points on your battlewagons, shame on you!

No, I haven't used ghaz before and looking in the codex only. I didn't realise he was immune to instant death. Though I cannot see any where that he has 5+ invulnerable, unless I am missing something?

The majority of things you listed, yes. Though second time charge he will not get that invulnerable. I wouldn't take all lightning claw terminators anyway, and using nullzone with a librarian will force re-roll on that invulnerable, ok its a 2+ so its still mighty fine.

Cybork bodies on the nobz work wonders....feel no pain is good against small arms fire power.

So, thats my point about deaf ears because you still have no bosspoles added and still have a lowly deffkopter. TBH I don't think those rams on the trukks are that good as well. Trukks are weak and won't generate that good strength hit, if I'm correct they will get a S7 hit, 5 for the 18" move and +2 for reinforced ram. You will end up doing a S5 hit to yourself, not massive damage but on a already weak trukk could be threatening. I'd keep those trukks as cheap as, perhaps add red paint job in your case as its more viable wargear for your tactics and method of play. To make that S7 work you've got to make sure you hit other tanks on either the side armour, though more than likely the rear armour - not always possible.