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So this is my first draft, but quite possibly final draft of my final ard boyz list. Comments and criticisms are welcome of course, but I don't really know how many lists can handle this one.

HQ
Tyrant- wings, 2 sets of scything talons, hive commander, old adversary, paroxysm, leech life 280

Tyrant- wings, 2 sets of scything talons, hive commander, old adversary, paroxysm, leech life 280

Elites
2 zoanthropes 120
mysetic spore 40

2 zoanthropes 120
mysetic spore 40

2 zoanthropes 120
mysetic spore 40

Troops
10 gants 50

Tervigon- catalyst, adrenal glands (might be toxin sacs, whichever gives them poison) 185

10 gants 50

Tervigon- catalyst, adrenal glands (might be toxin sacs, whichever gives them poison) 185

Fast
15 gargoyles- adrenal glands, toxin sacs 120

15 gargoyles- adrenal glands, toxin sacs 120

15 gargoyles- adrenal glands, toxin sacs 120

Heavy
Trygon- adrenal glands (maybe toxin sacs, whichever gives thm poison) 210

Trygon- adrenal glands (maybe toxin sacs, whichever gives thm poison) 210

Trygon- adrenal glands (maybe toxin sacs, whichever gives thm poison) 210

2500 on the dot, and about as competitive as I think new nids can get. Let me know what you think.

Toxin sacs are indeed the upgrade that gives them Poison. Adrenal Glands confer Furious Charge.

I think thats a fine list. Except don't give your trygons toxin sacs, you won't adrenal glands what gives furious charge. A trygon will wound mostly on a 2+, you don't want to change that to a 4+ even if you get re-rolls!

Adrenal glands on the tyrants wouldn't go a-miss either. Works well.

Other than that, great.

Why the scything talons on the hive tyrants AND preferred enemy? Lash Whip/bone sword would benefit you more, as you will suffer greatly versus multiwound units with only s6/7, and you get rerolls either way. Now, if you are only worried about charging vehicles that moved over 6 inches, then I understand, as the scything talons are useful.

Also, use adrenal on the trygons instead of toxin, but I would keep toxin on the gargoyles and tervigon.

How are you planning to deal with nob bikers/blood crushers/thunderwolf calv?

Because with scything talons you get to re-roll all to hit, if you take one pair of talons you only re-roll one's. Scything talons and useful period as you can re-roll not just against vehicles but against infantry. Preffered enemy gives that rule to units within 6". Imagine a unit with toxin sacs, that re-roll to hit and to wound!

Bone sword allows no armour saves, tyrant does this already as its a monstrous creature and on top of that forces a leadership test or instant death. Lash whip will make things go at I1 but the tyrant will more than likely for before them and heavy hitters such as power fists and thunder hammers already strike at I1 anyway.

Am I the only one concerned with the fact he only has 2 troop choices at 2500

He has four choices. Two lots of 10 gants and 2 tervigons. He will spawn more troops anyway, why pay for troops when you can get some free? Only other troops I would consider would be genestealers. Though hormagaunts could come in use.

Dunno if I like this list much since the peekaboo list didn't work all that great for me at 1850 but if it works for you go for it.

Flygrants die fast, especially with no 2+ save. Hard to get cover for them and if you hiding behind something might as well have ran a walkgrant. I tried a flygrant in the old book in 5th and even with a 2+/6++ he sure died fast. Especially with nothing to reach out and touch the opponents anti tank they pumping everything into your flygrants.

I've had bad luck with zoanthropes, maybe I play against space wolves too much but when half then get blocked on a 4+ from the Runic Weapon or get blocked 44% of the time by a hood and then you have to pass psychic test, hit and pen and roll damage on that second one. You just might kill one transport for your 160 pt investment. Great if you need to kill a land raider but otherwise hive guard seem better for transport poping. Zoanthropes tend to get dead after shooting once because they either get rapid fired or charged.

You want more then 10 gaunts for your initial squads, 20 is a good number to get a decent number of attacks out and be able to take some casualties. If you get charged by Ork mobs its bad news if you only have 10 and 10 can be shot away with concentrated fire without much difficulty.

Tervigon wants adrenal glands (furious charge), toxin sacks (poison), and catalyst (fnp) for a total of 195 pts for the super gaunt package.

Haven't actually tried Gargoyles so no comment here other then have you tried hormagaunts because they score?

I wasn't too impressed by the TRY GONE. It TRY to shoot a tank and then gets shot up so its GONE. Maybe if two Tyrants giving you the +2 to reserves they just might be ok as 2-3 of them come in on turn 2. Then again the opponent might smoke one or both flygrants turn 1. Toxin sacks for poison isn't worth it on strength 6 monster that wounds most things on 2s anyway.

Nurglitch- Thanks for the clarification.

Mercer- the toxin sacs are more for the gaunts the the tervigons and I dont think toxin sacs for the tyrants are necessary.

Devian D- Mainly for vehicles and such, but I'm thinking of changing it to help with nob bikers and other bugs. Why adrenals on the tervis? I think having gaunts being able to just put wounds on anything regardless of toughness is great! not to mention re rolling to wound agiansnt weaker foes.

As far as Noob bikers go I shouldn't have TOO much trouble taking them out, with concentrated assaults and spawning gaunt screens. I could be wrong, but nob bikers aren't that effective at 2500. Blood crushers I would just issolate from fateweaver and kill him by throwing some gargoyles at him and make him take a ton of saves. Then just deal with the crushers in combat and shooting. TW's I'm not really sure, as a tyranid player I think I'm going to have accept any match against a well toned SW army an auto loss sadly.

Kirika- Flyrants only have to last to turn 2, not hard if they are reserved as they should be. I don't know, so far I've had good luck with zoanthropes so I'm ging to keep using them. I haven't played a goodspace wolf list yet but I handled a psychic hood without too much difficulty.

The gaunts no longer need to kill stuff. I have too many threats now and I have gargoyles for that which are just better at it with the fantasy poison. That means their only real purpose is to now just be a scoring unit. And who's going to concentrate fire power on 10 gaunts with the rest of my army in your face?

If only I had the points to give the tervis all that. (sigh)

I have NOT ONCE been let down by the trygons. They are quite frequently the MVP's of my games. I'm not sure how you're using them and if your only test with them was against that particular space wolf list you played then thats not really fair, because I can't come up with a ANY tyranid army capable of beating it. Try it out against some other armies. Also toxin sacs are there to help with other enemy MC's and such re roll to wounds can easily be the deciding factor in a nid vs nid game.

Dude, that List makes your opponent cry, you want to have friends, dun use it

Tony- its ard boyz for a reason

This list is not that Ard at all. His troop base is so small that even if he did loose them, hes then going to have to pull other units just to make a draw...

imo your fast attack could be better spent on other types of troops.

If I ran last years list, it would force this list off the board. Fast moving units are going to be able to cut off your force and break it apart all the while working sections of your list apart.

As it is,

You have two main focal points for your troop section, 3 heavy back field, 3 units to support the pods that are coming in to break up tanks and such.

I think you underestimate nobs and bloodcrushers. Even small units of twin bonesword nid warriors are going to wtfroflpwn you... all because the nid MCs are not good at dealing with multiwound monsters or charging through cover. (Case in point, a trygon on a charge may kill 2 out of 3 twin bonesword warriors, but that last 45 point warrior gets 3 chances to hit and wound you on a 4+, and if you take ONE wound, you get to make a 3d6 ld 8 check or die. Not a good trade if you ask me. Forget it if they are in cover lol)

Now, the traditional counter to these units is the new supergants, as with all the buffs and with a large initial number they can deal out crippling damage to even super units, thus trading up. However, you only start with 20 gants, so you cant count on supergants in assault, especially if you need them to also take objectives.

Now, you do have gargs to help out (though without counterattack they will die pretty bad!), BUT as others said the result is that you are seperating your groups out. You have flyers, walkers, and deepstrikers. In 'ard boyz, you should know that almost no one will allow properly modeled gargs to provide 50% obscurement to a big ol' hive tyrant. Imagine your up against a shooty list that is good at target priority. Any decent list can kill both winged tyrants on turn 1. 8 wounds at t6 takes an expected 14 shots at min s8 ap3 to bring down. This can be 3 exo's backed by allied IG, or 3 vendettas with an IG blob, or 3 units of long fangs, ect.

So my advice is to image what would happen to your game plan if you lose both tyrants on turn 1. At a minimum, your trygons and spore pods will not come in on a 2+, potentially stranding them in reserve, letting said gunline pick off units at their leisure. The tervigons are slow, thus they can be ignored until turns 4-5, when said gunline tank shocks you off objective, kills any threatening tervigons, and scores a major win versus you.

(As a PS, you could run this force as an all reserve army, provided that wings on a tyrant allow DS. This is nice, however at last years 'ard boyz, lots of people ran mystic units. Mystics + scary shooting units make for very dangerous deepstrikes!)

Tarval- What last year's list are you talking about? What do you sugget I spend the points on fast attack on if they aren't well spent? I think you've misinterpreted how I'm planning to use the army, which I'll explain as I respond to Devian D's post.

Devian D- Math hammer says that 1 tyrant 1 trygon and 2 units of gargoyles on the charge cause 16 wounds to a non fate weavered crusher unit in 1 round. I'm assuming that 2 trygons a tyrant and 1 unit of gargoyles can make close to the same damage out put. So all I have to do is just wait for him to deep strike focus on fateweaver for a turn or isolate him somehow and then blitz him with my far superior movement.

Against nob bikers 3 trygons and 2 tyrants charging cause 22 power weapon wounds to the unit, assuming no cybork bodies, if they are taken 15 wounds. I'm not overly worried about nob bikers or fate crushers.

In all cases numbers were rounded down.

As far as dual bone sword warriors go, I think you're right they would be a challenge. My best bet would be to shoot them with gargs if they're in cover. Or charge them with gargs if they aren't. Realistically though I don't think I'll see mny dual bone sword warriors just because of how much of an easy time other armies have dealing with them.

My tyrants have wings which make them jump infantry allowing them to deep strike. My tyrants have hive commander which says that I only need to be alive to benefit. So Basically in most games (barring games against fate crusher and other armies whithout ANY SIGNIFIGANT anti monstrous creature fire power where I may deploy) I would reserve the army. The Tyrants trygons gargs and zoans deep strike the gaunts walk on and the tervis out flank.

This should guarantee that I overload him with threats on turn 2. And while mystics may be a pain I would rather just deploy cautiously and deep strike then foot slog across from an IG gun line.

What's the strength and initiative of the trygons and tyrants? And how many attacks each do they have base, and how many on the charge to total 22 power weapon wounds? Thanks.

Horribly low on troops. Surely?

Not sure if its really that great.
At the 2500 pt level, the enemy can bring a lot of heavy weapons to bear
and the tough Nids (Tervigon, Trygon) are lacking 2+ saves.

"Against nob bikers 3 trygons and 2 tyrants charging cause 22 power weapon wounds to the unit"

While math might say this is true (i didnt check), keep in mind that if you deep strike, then the nob bikers are charging you... not the other way around. Also, you are using 5 monstrous creatures clocking in at over 1k points to hit said nob bikers (bikers are expensive, but not THAT expensive!). If the nob bikers are in difficult terrain, your done, being forced to strike at init 1 and allowing the klaws to maim a bunch of your creatures.

not saying this list wont win games, its just that its lacking versus many opponent types--types that are prevalent in the tourney scene.

Also, we didnt even discuss what dual lash 9 oblits and rhino beserkers would do to you--though in your defense nids have very little to save them from this.

I'm really curious about the nob biker situation, which is why I asked for clarification. Nob bikers have 18-24" assault range unless they get a 12" assault, then its a 30" assault range. You can bet that you're getting assaulted by them, not assaulting them. They'll be striking at I4 and I1 with different weapons (big choppas, normal choppas, painboy syringe at I4) needing probably 3+ to hit and 2+ or 3+ or 5+ to wound a T6 model depending on which weapon we're talking about.

I don't really see a situation where 3 trygons and 2 tyrants are in a situation to charge a unit of nob bikers unless the biker opponent foolishly wasted the unit of nob bikers on gants while in counter-assault range?

Elites
3 zoanthropes 180
mysetic spore 40

3 zoanthropes 180
mysetic spore 40

Doing this puts 40 points back on you list of things to buy. The main reason for doing this up your odds at breaking the vehicle in question. Its just that your going to kick yourself when you pop out of the spore and dbl miss. The other reason im seeing the need for just two units, is whats really going to be on the boards.


Fast
30 gargoyles- adrenal glands, toxin sacs 240

This option allows you to attack like jet lock squad do. Branch off and take on multi vehicles while finding that one squad to lock you up after assault has taken place. That way somebody cant just waxs you off the board.



Now you have upwards of around 160 points to spend.

Personally a wall of hormies and or something in your troop section would really help. That alone would force you opp to drop the hormies first, buying a turn or two for your standard troops to move around and the tryigon pump out more gants.

Either way you look at it, I just think mech armies are going to steam this list clean. Its just that after you break the vehicle, the squad will get out and pump a few short range rounds into the creature and or creatures that did it. After that, the the rest of the army is going to clean up.


Personally after reading the codex just a bit, the guy that stands out the most is the ma' lok or how ever you spell its name from the heavy support. One it allows you to seak out a weak unit to kill. The other option is that it allows you to hide and then pop up and contest near the end of the game. Having just one of these guys is plenty and would allow you to wreak havoc on some basic squads that will only be able to inflict a few wounds on him before he cleans them up...



maybe I can get some time tomorrow to stop off at the GW store and read up on the nids some more...

I have no idea what this 'nid list would do vs a psychic hood, 3+ land raiders and th/ss termies.

That's a common theme in 'ard boyz.

I love the gargoyles. That's about all I can say about this list.

I'm still a bit confused.. people dont seem to mind the lack of troops? Does Ard Boyz not have objective capture mission?

wuestenfux- Whille that is true about heavy weapons. No army is going to be able to deal with 40 T6 3+ save wounds in just one turn before the y smash hard into your lines.

Also to help if the enemy has long fangs or other infsntry unitd with obscene ab=mounts of heavy weaopns nothing like casting paroxysm to give them bs 1 after the throapes popped them out of ttheir transport.

DevianD- I don't HAVE to deep strike if the ork list is 45 lootas and nob bikers I would deep strike, other than that they don't have firepower that really worries me so I'll just deploy and insure that I get the charge. Also nob bikers really wouldn't do too well after my tyrants drop and give them BS and WS 1.

A game againt 9 oblit lask and khorne rhinos is one where I can only hope to be of better tskill than my opponent and that luck is on my side. But what do you suggest to help give my list the tools it needs.

Dashofpepper- see my respone above.

Tarval- against armies with 3 raiders or 3 vandettas or 3 whatevers it would be much more beneficial tp have 3 squads of zoeys. Even if just popping rhinos its better 3 than 2, and it's only really a 20% increase to kill the one transport vs just another 40% chance to kill a whole different one.

Gargoyles aren't the tank busters in the list, theyre mainly the anti infantry in the list while the big bugs beat up tanks in combat. I don't see how making 1 big squad, which if it deep strikes will be a disaster to place
would be beneficial.

I don't think hormies would help at all. IMO they are just bad gargoyles that score.

Imweasel- psychic hoods dont stop all that much, in reality they will stop 2/6 zoanthropes since I win ties. The 3/4 zoan thropes that got through will hit. And 2/3 will pen. That at statistically 1 crippled raider and 1 dead one. Then I'd just deploy 1 squad of gargoyles as shock absorber and then counter charge hard. I don't see that army being a challenge.

Razerous- The 2 squads of gaunts stay in reserve and wont geyt beat of becuse theres 6 zoan thropes 3 pods 45 gargoyles and 7 monstrous creatures in your face turn 2. Then tre tervis can always gak out some more if it's an objective game.

yermom wrote:Razerous- The 2 squads of gaunts stay in reserve and wont geyt beat of becuse theres 6 zoan thropes 3 pods 45 gargoyles and 7 monstrous creatures in your face turn 2. Then tre tervis can always gak out some more if it's an objective game.

Assuming the hive commander ability stacks and considering previous examples of 5th edition reserve roll improvement, it doesn't always work out that way. So it could well be 2 zoeys and 2 trygons.

As for the other 4 monstrous creatures.. How exactly will they reach my "face" by turn two? Outflanking tervigons perhaps? What is going to be screening the tervigons, or will you be using the spawned gants for that?

You do have allot of synapse but you also have a complete lack of ranged shooting synapse. So will you be holding back or running back your fighty synapse? You could include the zoeys under shooty synapse but they will evaporate due to their threat/weakness. So I'm sure not about outflanking/reserve based gant squads when you really need them to support the massive collection of big bugs in the army. But it could work.

yermom wrote:Imweasel- psychic hoods dont stop all that much, in reality they will stop 2/6 zoanthropes since I win ties. The 3/4 zoan thropes that got through will hit. And 2/3 will pen. That at statistically 1 crippled raider and 1 dead one. Then I'd just deploy 1 squad of gargoyles as shock absorber and then counter charge hard. I don't see that army being a challenge.

Huh? The zoans are going to 'statistically' kill 1 raider and cripple one per turn?

First, you have to get them in. Let's say you get 2 squads on turn 2. They are in the game. Your land raider opponent is going to know this and will either pop smoke on turn 2 if they went first or on turn 1 if you went first.

You now have 2 zoans in one unit that are going to shoot. Each zoan will make ld10 90% of the time. Of that the zoan will get past hood 60% of the time. Now you are down to 55%.

You now need to hit, which you do 67% of the time. Now you are down to 40%. You now pen 67% of the time. Now down to 25%. I will stop half of those shots with cover saves. You are now down to 12%. You kill half the time.

6% per zoan.

With 4 zoans that gets you, 'statistically', 1 dead raider and one crippled. In one turn. Interesting.

Even if your opponent is only playing 3 raiders, and you get all three pods in, I find it very hard to believe that you are going to guarantee killing or crippling all 3 of them.

Once your anti-tank is gone, the raiders are free to do whatever they want. I think you are going to need some more anti-tank.

Razerous wrote:I'm still a bit confused.. people dont seem to mind the lack of troops? Does Ard Boyz not have objective capture mission?

The tervigons can spawn termagaunts so he'll get more troops as the battle goes on, don't worry.

Eldar Own wrote:

Razerous wrote:I'm still a bit confused.. people dont seem to mind the lack of troops? Does Ard Boyz not have objective capture mission?

The tervigons can spawn termagaunts so he'll get more troops as the battle goes on, don't worry.

They produce roughly 11 per spawn and should get about 2 spawns off. If you do it early, you make sure you get them out before it dies but then they are at risk from fire from early turns. If you dont, you risk not getting any at all due to sudden death (wtfpwed tervigons etc).

Now in terms of killing tervigons, in this list specifically.. whilst there are distractions with trygons and such.. I would feel its too easy to slay them @ 2.5 k whilst dealing with everything else, due to the lack of support they have. (I.e no vennies, large deep screens of gants etc. )

yermom wrote:

Mercer- the toxin sacs are more for the gaunts the the tervigons and I dont think toxin sacs for the tyrants are necessary.

Adrenal glands are furious charge mate, not toxin sacs which are poison . S7 I6 (?) on the charge is nice

The idea that I have always worked with is that its better to kill and support then to just hope you kill by buying another unit with the points you saved. Granted if you roll well, you can pop a few things, but having to do with some really nasty things requires that you kill it and kill it again after you cloned it and killed it the 34th time.