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Greetings I recently have gotten bored with my 'Crons, and annoyed to no end with the phase-out limitation, so I grabbed me a bunch of space elves.

The army is fairly solid, and is designed to be highly mobile, and very effective at gunning down infantry. It’s based around multiple squads of dire avengers (bladestorming anything with legs), with shining spears for assault, and Fire Prisms/Lances on wave-Serpents for anti-armor.

However, I have yet to win a match against either my friends Black Templar army (which I will describe later), or ANY Space Wolf army. I have yet (and I’m very scared of) to face the new Nids, though I have won against Orks, Crons, and Regular Space Marines.

My friend’s black templar army is simply designed. He fields anywhere from 1-4 Vindicators and 3-9 Rhinos always with an emperor’s champion in a squad, and chaplains in the remaining squads depending on the point total of the game. Obviously, I try ensure I get first turn so I can pop the vindicator(s) and follow up with each of the rhinos, but no matter how lucky I get on my damage rolls, he manages to close the distance, eat my shining spears. . . pop my serpents then devourer every pointy-eared model I have.

Though he isn't as bad as every space wolf player I have had the displeasure of playing. They are almost as mean as BTs in assault, I’ve met a few with armies that are effective as swarming me, and their anti-armor is better than what I’m used to.


Any Eldar tips against these two forces? Units I should look into? Strategies for my current models? Prayers I should learn?

HQ
Asurmen with 9 DAs w/1 Exarch, Power Weap/Shimmer Sheild, defend 392pts

Troops
9 DAs w/1 Exarch, with dual catapults, Bladestorm 152pts
9 DAs w/1 Exarch, with dual catapults, Bladestorm 152pts

Elites
9 Howling Banshees w/1 Exarch, with Mirrorswords, war shout, and acrobatic 177pts

Heavy SUP
1 Fire Prism with Spirit Stones 135pts
1 Fire Prism with Spirit Stones 135pts

Transports
3 Wave Serpents each with shuriken cannons, twin-linked brightlances, and spirit stones 155pts each
Asurmen's Squad and the two dire-avenger squads each have a wave serpent.
4th Serpent belonging to the banshees does not have cannon upgrade and is at 145pts

To a grand total of 1753 pts

Shining spears tend to be a very expensive unit with very little power if you don't use them well or have a plan for them. Any chance you could post what you have in your list so I could get a better idea of what your fielding?

oops, totally forgot that

here


HQ
Asurmen with 10 DAs 350pts

Troops
9 DAs w/1 Exarch, with dual catapults, Bladestorm, and defend 167pts
9 DAs w/1 Exarch, with dual catapults, Bladestorm, and defend 167pts

Fast ATK
2 Shining Spears w/1 Exarch, with withdraw 142pts
2 Shining Spears w/1 Exarch, with withdraw 142pts
2 Vipers in a squadron, with Shuriken Cannons and Bright-lances 170pts

Heavy SUP
1 Fire Prism with Shuriken Cannon and Spirit Stones 153pts

Transports
3 Wave Serpents each with shuriken cannons, twin-linked brightlances, and spirit stones 155pts each
Asurmen's Squad and the two dire-avenger squads each have a wave serpent

To a grand total of 1738 pts

i plan to drop the vipers in favor of another fire prism, and give them both holo-feilds

Asurman is... very expensive and (IMHO) not worth his points. Try our good friend the Farseer, or park an Avatar near your DAs if they run a lot. As in run away. I can't seem to recall how many SSs can be in a squad so I'll have to get back to you on my opinion of that.

I actually originally had a farseer with three warlocks, their combined total point cost was 260, though i felt i wasnt getting enough out of my HQ unit (or i wasnt using them properly) so i went with a Lord to add more shots to a DA squad, it allowed me to drop the original plan to mount the farseer squad in jetbikes (could afford the points).

Though i have yet to try an Avatar at all

a Farseer is a good addition against Space Wolves. Take a simple one with runes of warding, which will help immensely with living lightning, space wolves have good magic defense so don't overload the farseer with powers, doom and warding should suffice. He can even hang out with a squad of avengers, no real need to pay for a full body guard of locks.

you should probably run your spears as one unit and upgrade the exarch with a Starlance. An s8 power weapon that hits at I6 is pretty nasty for marine character hunting. Also since you seem to like shining spears a lot, consider a lance bike autarch. They greatly enhance shining spears melee prowess and give a melta shot to bring down a landraider then charge its contents. As it stands, you are paying for withdraw twice, and you're giving up 2 killpoints as opposed to one.

2 fire prisms is always better than 1, especially against marines where combining beams for an s6 ap3 shot is golden.

Take emls on vypers, you can move 12 inches and fire both weapons (plasma missiles count as defensive weapons). or 2 shuri cannons just to keep em cheap. but dropping them for another prism is a good idea.

Also don't take both exarch powers on avengers, either go dire sword or shimmer shield and defend, or duel cats and bladestorm. If you are dead set on asurman, give the squad he chills with an exarch with a shimmer shield, so that the rest of your avengers can get an invulnerable save in combat too. As that is where Asurman wants to be.

Once you've streamlined your list, its just a matter of popping transports and killing spacewolves

The Avatar is the best anti vehicle that I have. Shining Spears are very effective, but fragile. I don't use them, but when they survive to get into CC they are great. My main comment is that you have no Banshees or Scorpions. They would be great against CC oriented marines. They strike first. I can never decide if wounding less and denying armor saves (banshees) are better or if it's better to wound more often but give them their armor saves (scorpions). I tend to go fro the scorpions as I play orcs a lot and don't like changing my army too much for new opponents. I suppose that reminds me that warp spiders are great against rhinos. str 6 attacks with lots of shots as well. They can do ok in assaults too. They don't hit very hard, but they can leave CC, shoot and charge back in. Very fun when you can get it to work.

more transports.... they're cheep have a nice array of weapons and reduce any weapon fire to str 8...not to mention melta doesn't get the second die....fire dragons rape face if they get to shoot first too

Your problems as I can see so far would deal mostly with anti armour. You don't have enough shots with good enough accuracy to reliably pop most transports which both Black templar and Space wolves will have. Asurmen is nice but I feel like a farseer is fairly essential nowadays. If you put him with a squad of DA's, he can doom whatever they fire at and be much more efficient.

Troops look good. You don't have a lot of troops but you don't have too little either. Maybe one more squad would be better but that would be more of a personal preference.

Your fast attack is the section that probably needs the most cleaning up. Vypers are extremely extremely fragile and are only BS 3. Now you plan to drop them for a fire prism, which works. But also look at taking vypers with missile launchers and shuri cannons. The eldar missile launcher is a fantastic weapon and the frag version is ap 4 instead of 5 and also has pinning when coupled with shuriken cannons, becomes a reliable anti horde vehicle. Overall, if your going to take vypers, take at least 3. Also, the shining spears are seriously underpowered and over priced. I think shining spears honestly only work if used with jetseer councils just because of how fragile they are. And if you plan on using withdraw, you also are going to want more then 3 models. You may do a lot of damage on the charge, but you also have to survive combat with a intact squad and with only 3 models, the chances of the squad becoming useless or dying outright is much higher. and 2 squads of them is a lot of points into a total of 6 very fragile models. Without the charge, they are only guardian jetbikes with a higher weapon skill and init.

The fire prism does not need the shuriken cannon imo. Even with holo fields, it is still a pricey albeit semi fragile tank. Sure holo fields make you durable, but at the very least you won't be firing a turn if they glance or pen you. The biggest advantage defensively the fire prism has is the 60 inch range. That means your shuriken cannon won't ever be fired if you manage to keep out of range of anti tank. Remember, the fire prism is only armour 12 on the front. That means a lot of shots can pen or glance and they still manage to silence your gun even if they do no lasting damage. Also, a good idea to take them in pairs. Linked fire can be very handy because you can have one in cover or hidden and the other firing as long as those two tanks have LOS to eachother.


Overall the list is going in the right direction but the Eldar codex has a lot of units that need a list to be built around them, not with them. Shining spears are one of those. And the Avatar, while nice and cheap, is going to be very slow compared to the rest of your army if you were planning on taking him. I would stick with a farseer to give yourself psyker defence and offence. A farseer is a fantastic force multiplier.

Against your BT opponent specifically, it sounds like he's suckering you into shooting at his vindicators. This was a popular 4th ed tactic (but then the BT codex is 4th ed) to throw 3 vindicators with machine spirit at the enemy and follow them up with rhinos full of troops.

Vindicators are not effective against Eldar because they're too slow and short-ranged. A vindicator's maximum effective range is 30" (with the 6" move), while the range of a brightlance is 36". So just use your 12" of movement to position your serpents 31-36" from his vindicators and shoot the rhinos *first.* Then use your prisms (might consider getting a few more of those) to stand off outside his 30" bubble and pound away at the stranded infantry while you turn your brightlances on the side & rear armor of the vindicators.

Remember, if you're shooting at a vindicator while there's still a live rhino on the table--particularly if you're shooting at the vindicator's front armor, inside it's range bubble and/or it's a BT vindi that's allowed to have machine spirit--then you're just falling for his trap.

Thank you everyone for your advice

What have taken from you all so far is that i should probably, change up my HQ, or add a Farseer/Avatar to it,
Drop my SS in favor of another WS with a full squad of Scorps/Banshees.
Take the Cannons off of the prisms, as that is pointless with their 60" range.
Drop defend on the two DA units without Asurmen, and Give an exarch with a Shimmersheild to Asurmen's unit


Against my friends black templars, Lances should focus on popping the rhinos, while the prisms take out the vindicators.

is that everything?

Maybe I missed it, but is vehicle spam not an option?

4x5 dire avengers in brightlance waveserpents, 3 holofield fireprisms, eldrad, 3 firedragon squads in brightlance waveserpents. Dont have points on hand, but this is the standard win button eldar list as far as I am concerned.

Anidem wrote:
Against my friends black templars, Lances should focus on popping the rhinos, while the prisms take out the vindicators.

is that everything?

Eldar should focus everything on rhinos first--all heavy weapons--while standing off outside the vindicators' range. Never shoot anything at a vindicator while there's a functioning rhino on the table.

Remember, with BT (or chaos) they're often only packing short-range heavy weapons in those rhinos, and they are strongest in assault, so once you take away their mobility, they can't hurt you anymore, and you win the game.

Then you can pick the vidicators apart at your leisure.

All vehicles should have Shuriken Catapults as they are defensive weapons, under strength 4.

You should take as many Star Cannons as you can to take out Marines

2 Fire Prisms would be better as 2 small blast S9 AP2 shots can be annoying, or a single S6 AP3 Large blast.

Then take plenty of Bright Lances for the tanks.

phantommaster wrote:All vehicles should have Shuriken Catapults as they are defensive weapons, under strength 4.

You should take as many Star Cannons as you can to take out Marines

2 Fire Prisms would be better as 2 small blast S9 AP2 shots can be annoying, or a single S6 AP3 Large blast.

Then take plenty of Bright Lances for the tanks.

I really like under-slung shuriken cannons as they can contribute decently to anti-rhino duties.

revised army list, taken in from everyone's input

HQ
Asurmen with 9 DAs w/1 Exarch, Power Weap/Shimmer Sheild, defend 392pts

Troops
9 DAs w/1 Exarch, with dual catapults, Bladestorm 152pts
9 DAs w/1 Exarch, with dual catapults, Bladestorm 152pts

Elites
9 Howling Banshees w/1 Exarch, with Mirrorswords, war shout, and acrobatic 177pts

Heavy SUP
1 Fire Prism with Spirit Stones 135pts
1 Fire Prism with Spirit Stones 135pts

Transports
3 Wave Serpents each with shuriken cannons, twin-linked brightlances, and spirit stones 155pts each
Asurmen's Squad and the two dire-avenger squads each have a wave serpent.
4th Serpent belonging to the banshees does not have cannon upgrade and is at 145pts

To a grand total of 1753 pts

guardians (perferably 15 to 20) w/ missle launcher, Harlequins, fire dragons, and ditch a wave serpent or two.

IMO the only things I'd change would be to swap out asurmen for a farseer with doom and runes of warding/witnessing, guide, and stones and swap out a fire prism for a falcon with shuriken cannon and scatter laser, EML, or bright lance. With the points saved you should be able to buy 5 more DAs to ride in the falcon as well, to make it scoring or to help with fire support where needed (5 lets the farseer ride in there as well.)

Both dire avengers and especially banshees really benefit from doom, especially against marines. Asurmen OTOH doesn't really do much to increase the ability of your army for his massive cost. The reason I also suggested guide was so if he's riding in the falcon he can guide it, giving you 3 strength 8 shots and 3 strength 6 or 2 strength 8 and 7 strength 6 (depending on loadout), all twin-linked. Scatter laser instead of EML/bright lance is actually better at killing rhinos and marines but not as good at killing vindicators. A fire prism OTOH isn't very good at killing tank because of the likelihood of scattering with its 1 decent shot.

Also, banshee exarchs are usually better with executioner, as they result in the same number of wounds against marines but the executioner gets more wounds on the charge and can be used to destroy AV 10 vehicles and can wound T7 creatures and the exarch gets to keep her pistol. Doom makes the mirrorswords slightly better than the executioner, but that relies on the banshees targeting a doomed foe and there are all the other benefits listed above for the executioner.

You do not want to be in HtH with BTs nor SWs. Drop Asurmen, the banshees and stick to a mobile shooty army.
BLs are way overcosted and against a rhino rush a Scatter laser is superior.

HQ:
Farseer (Doom+RoWard)

Troops:
9xDAs (Exarch+Bladestorm+Dual Cats) = 140
Serpent (Scatter+Stones) = 125

9xDAs (Exarch+Bladestorm+Dual Cats) = 140
Serpent (Scatter+Stones) = 125

10xStorm Guardians (2xFlamers + Warlock+Destructor) = 127
Serpent (Scatter+Stones) = 125

5xDAs = 60

Elites:
5xDragons = 80
Serpent (Shuriken Cannons + Stones) = 110

5xDragons = 80
Serpent (Shuriken Cannons + Stones) = 110

Heavy Support:
2x Prisms = 230

Falcon (Holofield+Stones+Brigh lance) = 190

Ive always heard that warwalkers are better then fire prisms. I dont play Eldar, but they can carry some serious firepower, and usually come in 3s. Id rather have more decently powerful shots, then one good one

KingCracker wrote:Ive always heard that warwalkers are better then fire prisms. I dont play Eldar, but they can carry some serious firepower, and usually come in 3s. Id rather have more decently powerful shots, then one good one

ah, but im shying away from war-walkers for the same reason im dropping the falcons. . . they are made out of paper, and generally get killed in one turn. My other big point hogs can at least kill up to or over their point cost before dying usually

Don't get me wrong, I like fire prisms, but they're just as much "paper" as falcons are, though they do have considerably better range.

IMO fire prisms are the most points-effective HS in the codex.

I would drop stones from all your serpents to buy your farseer guide (for the falcon), and some under-slung shuriken cannons.

I would also downgrade the lance from the falcon to an EML, because you already have two units of fire dragons in your army.

I know that a lot of Eldar players are much more comfortable with Bladestorm on their DAs, but if you dropped the exarchs you could pick up Eldrad, and I think this would make your army generally more effective.

I agree that you should take eldrad, because I like to have a single all powerful unit that draws fire away from other units, but I would go with a star cannon on the falcon if you are to take it.

phantommaster wrote:I agree that you should take eldrad, because I like to have a single all powerful unit that draws fire away from other units, but I would go with a star cannon on the falcon if you are to take it.

Star cannons are sub-optimal, they cost too much for too little effect. If I'm going to pay the points, I'd rather have the bright lance, especially since it can ID things like obliterators and tyranid warriors.

sorry for the confusion, i meant vipers are made out of paper. Both the Prism and Falcon have re-enforced plastic.


And i may have forgotten to mention the main reason for Asurmen, is the basis of this army around DAs, hence not even one Guardian support platform, or pathfinders.

I can appreciate taking Asurmen for fluffiness... but I think you'll have a hard time convincing people that you should take him in an army that needs space wolves to die.

SHOOT AT EVERYTHING!!!!

Da BLUE orks wrote:SHOOT AT EVERYTHING!!!!

Best. Advice. Ever.

If you really don't want to drop Asurmen, or the fire prisms, there is pretty much nothing left to advise you about.

Personally, I loathe Asurmen, and as such I never ever use him. He is a waste of points, though you could argue that on Sundays for 2 minutes, he can do a moderate amount of damage.

If you want to play a fluffy army, there is no way around the fact that there is nothing you can do to actually be effective, in a competitive setting.

I do have one piece of advice actually, or two really. First, drop defend on the Exarch that is with the Asurmen. I am either missing something, or you are, but Asurmen has all the powers, and you are just wasting points by getting a duplicate of one of them.

I will note that although Fire prisms are decent overall, they really lack any serious anti-tank capabilities, unless you are facing down landraiders. Your Banshee Exarch, should be using an executioner as well. That weapon is seriously effective on the charge, and adds a real punch to the squad.

As you list stands, it will do poor in general against mechanized armies. You have very little anti-tank, and your transports are not suited to take shuriken cannons. If you move 12 inches, you cannot fire the cannon, thus making it a purposeless upgrade, that when used (by moving 6" ) will take the only edge your army has away from you. That advantage would be mobility, and I would argue that a Farseer would give your army all the edge it really needs. The points you would save alone, could give you the option to drop all your DA Exarchs (possibly dropping two of those DA squads to 5 models as well), and get a third fire prism. Fire prisms appear to be much more flexible in general, when you have 3 of them. Twin link one large blast with two FPs, and use the last one two drop a second large blast. Any swarm army will absolutely hate you, if you have 3 FPs.

I suggest having fun overall though, don't be too serious about it. You appear to be playing fluffy, while asking for advice that is limited drastically by that fact.