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 Gene St. Ealer wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 xttz wrote:

I'd love to see this as a Tyranid stratagem usable by any unit with Lash Whips or Toxic Lashes. Would add value to a whole bunch of under-par units & wargear options as well as being a generally great tactical ability.

If I'm going to be honest, as much as I'd like to see something of this nature for Tyranids? It cannot be a thing where just one model in the unit can cause it to happen unless there's a fairly hefty pricetag added to Lash Whips/Toxic Lashes.

You've gotta be kidding me... you really think there's a threat of a seismic meta shift of (checks notes) *Venomthropes and Toxicrenes*? I guess since Nids are such a dominant part of the meta though, any boost might put them over the edge. Oh wait, Nids are entirely absent! Hmm...

I think you missed a key part of what Xttz's statement, so better recheck them notes.
It wasn't just Toxic Lashes. Lash whips were a big thing too.

Kdash wrote:

Whilst the Phoenix Lords aren't Craftworld "tied" they are available to anyone running Craftworlds.

A giant pile of terrible options doesnt change the fact that they're terrible options.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Being able to lock things in combat does tone down shooting though. It moves power from shooting to melee, but doesn't necessarily make the game more lethal overall.

It does punish turtling up in a castle though, which I really don't mind.

Big issue i can see is combining that with t1 charges(maybe even multiple units) against factions that have zero credible h2h threats. If you get zero chance to shoot before they hit your line and can prevent you from falling back regardless of how you position and your codex's h2h units hit like wet paper...you are left begging your units die to charge or you are screwed. And if you can quarantee no fall back and have no fear of counter charge that's trivial to prevent as attacker


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galas wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Being able to lock things in combat does tone down shooting though. It moves power from shooting to melee, but doesn't necessarily make the game more lethal overall.

It does punish turtling up in a castle though, which I really don't mind.

I suppose you are right. It also helps the weaker meele units. Because the "competitive" and powerfull mele units don't need to block anything in combat. Once they reach meele they destroy in one turn whatever they are charging.

Not if they don't want to.

Just a thought, perhaps you shouldn't go after BT players who are excited to see a little love thrown their way? You come off sounding like a jerk.

How dare BT players be excited that they are getting something in PA... like the Eldar players did....

On top of that, just because you don't like your new toys doesn't mean you get to stop all over everyone else. Over at my LFGS there are a handful of Eldar players, and they got really excited about the box set - some complains about price. Not every release is going to blow you away, right? Every faction has had sub-par releases. SM included.

Guys, the 2.0 wave has JUST started. The other factions are going to get some love too. Relax a bit. Give it time.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 xttz wrote:

I'd love to see this as a Tyranid stratagem usable by any unit with Lash Whips or Toxic Lashes. Would add value to a whole bunch of under-par units & wargear options as well as being a generally great tactical ability.

If I'm going to be honest, as much as I'd like to see something of this nature for Tyranids? It cannot be a thing where just one model in the unit can cause it to happen unless there's a fairly hefty pricetag added to Lash Whips/Toxic Lashes.

You've gotta be kidding me... you really think there's a threat of a seismic meta shift of (checks notes) *Venomthropes and Toxicrenes*? I guess since Nids are such a dominant part of the meta though, any boost might put them over the edge. Oh wait, Nids are entirely absent! Hmm...

I think you missed a key part of what Xttz's statement, so better recheck them notes.
It wasn't just Toxic Lashes. Lash whips were a big thing too.

My bad... d'oh. That being said, I still don't think that would break Warriors, Tyrant Guard, and Tyrants.

eh, whatever. Sure. Black Templars, a single subfaction within Codex: Space Marines, should probably get more rules content in PA than Codex: Drukhari. Give 'em the seven-layer dip chapter tactics, the special stratagems, their own relics, feth it, why not templaromancy psychic powers! How 'bout a special dreadnought with a sword, dreadnoughts haven't got swords yet.

The point is that the game has gone through more than half of its total editions without Black Templars being more than an "oh, these guys exist too I guess" afterthought. In principle this is the same as subfactions of other Codices not getting much love (if any) with the exception that it left a bunch of us sitting on a bunch of models (including those oh so precious unique units) that have been borderline unplayable since fifth edition (and even then they weren't exactly good). Imagine if next edition they decide that Thousand Sons should be part of the Chaos Marine Codex again and let them keep Ahriman, Rubric Marines and all that jazz as units in the book but those units also were meaningless because they didn't synergize with the rest of the book at all? Would Thousand Sons players be entitled for complaining that what they bought into no longer exists?

Explain why your army is worth more than mine just because mine is a subfaction and yours isn't. Yes, I could buy a bunch of new models and play Iron Hands instead, but you could just as easly drop a bunch of cash and buy an Eldar flying circus. Why is the second unreasonable to expect but not the first?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
No one complains that Ork players that want Speed Freeks to be viable are entitled (or, at least, no one ought to, because it'd be stupid) just because Boyz and Lootas are in a strong position.

Lol, people complain about me suggesting this all the time man!

Though not you, you're one of the good one's.

As an aside if I had to play a Marine army it would definitely be BT - they're basically the Marine equivalent of Orks.

the_scotsman wrote:
eh, whatever. Sure. Black Templars, a single subfaction within Codex: Space Marines, should probably get more rules content in PA than Codex: Drukhari. Give 'em the seven-layer dip chapter tactics, the special stratagems, their own relics, feth it, why not templaromancy psychic powers! How 'bout a special dreadnought with a sword, dreadnoughts haven't got swords yet.

Thanks for proving my point. How about you actually contribute something useful to the thread? We don't even have the BT content released yet and you are throwing a temper tantrum.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
No one complains that Ork players that want Speed Freeks to be viable are entitled (or, at least, no one ought to, because it'd be stupid) just because Boyz and Lootas are in a strong position.

Lol, people complain about me suggesting this all the time man!

Though not you, you're one of the good one's.

As an aside if I had to play a Marine army it would definitely be BT - they're basically the Marine equivalent of Orks.

They do, but I consider it just as stupid as the people whining about BT getting stuff. More internal balance is good for everyone; it means Ork players (in this example) can play a greater variety of units without getting fethed over, and it means I won't have to face the same list everytime I fight Orks.

There's an argument that more supplements for Marines actually increases diversity. Considering how popular Marines are as an army, making a bunch of different playstyles viable splits the field up somewhat. If you're going to be fighting Marines regardless, would you rather fight 12 Guilliman parking lots or 3 IH lists with a bunch of Dreadnoughts, 3 Salamanders lists with melta and flamer focus, 3 White Scars bike lists, 2 Imperial Fists bolterspam lists, and one Tack Blemplars list that focusses on psychic support and long-range shooting? This argument is somewhat incompatible with the argument that Marines are only popular because of marketing though, as it assumes that people want to play Marines at a relatively high constant level.

 Karthicus wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
eh, whatever. Sure. Black Templars, a single subfaction within Codex: Space Marines, should probably get more rules content in PA than Codex: Drukhari. Give 'em the seven-layer dip chapter tactics, the special stratagems, their own relics, feth it, why not templaromancy psychic powers! How 'bout a special dreadnought with a sword, dreadnoughts haven't got swords yet.

Thanks for proving my point. How about you actually contribute something useful to the thread? We don't even have the BT content released yet and you are throwing a temper tantrum.

Aight. I haven't got any news, or rumors, so really it'd just be speculation for what BT would need to get into the meta.

Reroll charges is only a good trait if it's paired with some way to get stuff into combat out of deep strike. The full reroll raises the odds from 28 to 47%, which is decent, but not decent enough to risk a whole unit's usefulness on. Orks only really got use out of that when they added on the Evil Sunz +1 to charge - that gets the odds up towards 70%.

So a +1 to charge aura added on to a relic or added to one of the two special lads would be good for BT.

We don't really have a primaris unit that does melee and doesn't deep strike, which would pair in really well with the new transport, which is kiiiinda wasted just shuttling intercessors around. intercessors of any type can pretty much fire from the DZ so the amazing assault transport rule on the im...thingy is not super useful right now.

BT Chapter tactic would pair quite well with such a unit.

I don't know how you run Crusader squads through the Primaris bland-o-filter like they did with Deathwatch Kill Teams without totally losing what they're supposed to be. Allow a mixed squad of reivers and intercessors? They haven't released anything with the primaris range that really looks like a gothic, medieval sort of space marine, they've been pretty much all the super futuristic commando stuff. In practice though, crusader squads have looked a little bit silly to me ever since they made the scout design a lot more modern looking with the plastic Scouts of Notre Dame Who All Have The Same Face kit. I've never been able to shake the feeling that neophytes were supposed to be dressed differently somehow, maybe with robes and medieval swords rather than the big rambo knives.

Get some charge bonuses somehow, some ability to get into assault doctrine prematurely, and black templars are perfectly respectable into the current meta.

 bullyboy wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
GW makes an Aeldari and Drukhari boxed set that looks fantastic, and adds new rules to create your own Covens/Cabals/Craftworlds as the first part of Psychic Awakening and Eldar players whine about it.

Then GW decides to throw a bone to a Space Marine faction that hasn't been touched in nearly 20 years and... Eldar players are whining again.

You know, for a LONG time GW just ignored the players. I'm not going to say this was a good business practice, but based on the amount of whining from 40k players- I can see exactly how they'd get to a point where they'd make that decision.

This statement is so far off the mark.

The box set does not look fantastic (unless you are just discussing the artwork). It has several units that most Aeldari players have zero interest in getting (either because they have enough or the rules are just terrible) which jacked up the price to a level where it wasn't worth it just to get th new models.

Also, if you've taken the time to go through PA, it is nice to get custom craftworld attributes but the book actually didn't give much else. The entire Aspect shrine powers could have been great but there are very few you'd actually want to use. It's literally less than 20% useful. Same with the psychic discipline added. Jain Zar and banshees got new models but the rules remained the same. They're not going to see much tabletop time. And Ynnari were just plopped in there with a points reduction for the characters.

This is no way compares to any of the buffs the marines got recently, not by a long shot. Some of it is cool and quirky and may work in a fluff/narrative perspective (which I'm cool with, it's what I'm doing this weekend with a bunch of guys) but it didn't offer Aeldari players any alternative to their power builds they have been running up until this point. It won't change the Aeledai meta one single bit. It was an opportunity missed IMHO.

Do you really think a top-tier faction should get the same amount of buffs out of a campaign book than a trash faction out of a new codex
Campaign books are not meant to shake up the meta

 Karthicus wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
eh, whatever. Sure. Black Templars, a single subfaction within Codex: Space Marines, should probably get more rules content in PA than Codex: Drukhari. Give 'em the seven-layer dip chapter tactics, the special stratagems, their own relics, feth it, why not templaromancy psychic powers! How 'bout a special dreadnought with a sword, dreadnoughts haven't got swords yet.

Thanks for proving my point. How about you actually contribute something useful to the thread? We don't even have the BT content released yet and you are throwing a temper tantrum.

Surely you see his point though right?

A subfaction of a faction (BT) get MORE love and rules than an entire faction in DE or CWE. That is insanity and it makes no sense.

No one begrudges BT good, fluffy rules. What we begrudge is these subfactions getting MORE than entire Xenos factions. As Walrus said - my Speed Freeks/Evil Sunz should have exactly the same rule depth as these new Marine subfactions. They're nowhere near currently and though people keep saying "be patient" and "it's coming", nothing and I mean nothing suggests this. Quite the opposite, given the piss poor stuff Eldar got in Phoenix Rising.

GW need to take a good, hard look at their priorities or they risk ostracising a massive portion of their playerbase and they risk losing players (and therefore money).

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Karthicus wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
eh, whatever. Sure. Black Templars, a single subfaction within Codex: Space Marines, should probably get more rules content in PA than Codex: Drukhari. Give 'em the seven-layer dip chapter tactics, the special stratagems, their own relics, feth it, why not templaromancy psychic powers! How 'bout a special dreadnought with a sword, dreadnoughts haven't got swords yet.

Thanks for proving my point. How about you actually contribute something useful to the thread? We don't even have the BT content released yet and you are throwing a temper tantrum.

Surely you see his point though right?

A subfaction of a faction (BT) get MORE love and rules than an entire faction in DE or CWE. That is insanity and it makes no sense.

No one begrudges BT good, fluffy rules. What we begrudge is these subfactions getting MORE than entire Xenos factions. As Walrus said - my Speed Freeks/Evil Sunz should have exactly the same rule depth as these new Marine subfactions. They're nowhere near currently and though people keep saying "be patient" and "it's coming", nothing and I mean nothing suggests this. Quite the opposite, given the piss poor stuff Eldar got in Phoenix Rising.

GW need to take a good, hard look at their priorities or they risk ostracising a massive portion of their playerbase and they risk losing players (and therefore money).

So you would stop playing entirely because something you're not interested in gets a release? Arguably if orks don't get a release you're not buying anything anyway so what have they lost?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
There's an argument that more supplements for Marines actually increases diversity.

It increases the diversity of Marine lists, sure.

Considering how popular Marines are as an army, making a bunch of different playstyles viable splits the field up somewhat. If you're going to be fighting Marines regardless, would you rather fight 12 Guilliman parking lots or 3 IH lists with a bunch of Dreadnoughts, 3 Salamanders lists with melta and flamer focus, 3 White Scars bike lists, 2 Imperial Fists bolterspam lists, and one Tack Blemplars list that focusses on psychic support and long-range shooting? This argument is somewhat incompatible with the argument that Marines are only popular because of marketing though, as it assumes that people want to play Marines at a relatively high constant level.

People don't want to play Marines at a relatively high and consistent level - until the recent codex and supplements Marines weren't very popular as a faction at competitive events. Now Marines are significantly more powerful they are significantly more popular - weird, right?

Like when Castellans, Guard soup and Smash Captains were incredibly powerful they were also incredibly popular.

Or when Ynnari were broken and could act in their opponents turn as well as their own - they were also incredibly popular.

There is no doubt that Marines are the most prevalent faction in the game. But prevalence does not equal popularity.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dudeface wrote:

So you would stop playing entirely because something you're not interested in gets a release? Arguably if orks don't get a release you're not buying anything anyway so what have they lost?

No, I'll stop playing because I'm BORED. I'm bored of the neverending Marine focus. I'm bored of losing games because Marines are simply more powerful than my faction. I'm bored of Marines having more rules than any other faction first. I'm bored of the fact that every new model is a Marine. Unfortunately I'm becoming bored with the hobby, because GW are focusing on one faction and one faction alone, which to me is boring.

Sisters are part of this one, right? I wonder if they are getting any tweaking to their anti-psyker...

..ehh, general stuff in this pass, if anything. im done hoping for Stern, and ill be hsocked for anti-psyker support.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
There's an argument that more supplements for Marines actually increases diversity.

It increases the diversity of Marine lists, sure.

All else equal a game where you have a bunch of different Marine builds is more diverse than one where every Marine build is a monobuild. Having more diverse armies is good even if you don't play them yourself.

EDIT: I guess the way I see it, releases for the macro faction of a subfaction isn't necessarily beneficial to all the subfactions. An Ork Speed Freeks player wouldn't benefit much from better Lootas, an Iyanden player isn't benefitted from a hypothetical Shining Spears release, and a Black Templars player doesn't benefit when a bunch of stuff that's great for Ultramarines is released.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
There's an argument that more supplements for Marines actually increases diversity.

It increases the diversity of Marine lists, sure.

All else equal a game where you have a bunch of different Marine builds is more diverse than one where every Marine build is a monobuild. Having more diverse armies is good even if you don't play them yourself.

Yes but all else isn't equal. The diversity of different lists has actually dropped as all of those factions that aren't SM have virtually disappeared from competitive play. No more Orks. No more Eldar. No more Dark Eldar. No more Ynnari. No more Necrons. No more Tau. You get the picture?

I get the argument, but you're drawing those conclusions too soon.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I get the argument, but you're drawing those conclusions too soon.

This has already happened, we've seen these numbers from events since the SM codex dropped. Other factions have quickly all but disappeared from the top 4s at events.

There are numerous ways to update factions and Sub factions now.

White Dwarf mini-dexes - guess who have had nearly all of these even for sub-subfactions with their own fething codexes wheras Sisters of Silence had Zero new rules, Zero models and Zero effort put in - especially annoying since they have a whole load of models that Could be used in Forge World Just like dozens of "30k" marine units that also have 40k rules.

Campaign Books - Eldar have got some new stuff - hurrah and then wants in the pipeline for the rest of the books - Marines, Marines, Marines followed by ....Marines. The leaks alreayd show loads of extras for.....Marines and Feth everyone else.

So not only do Marines dominate the main release scheudle stopping anything else but they do it for every release format - Forgeworld, White Dwarf whatever - its going to be wall to wall Maines with occassional other proper Factions to chuck with half hearedly in a lunch break.

And then there is the usual refrain of "oh you will get something soon" just like the start of 8th - we just need to get alll the releases for the dozen Marine dexes out, oh and all the other Marine stuff and sorry no its time for the 3rd Wave of marines - why can;t you just wait until thats finished.

I like Marines, I have hundreds of them - but for feths sake can;t they do something else for one whole week..

Bdrone wrote:
Sisters are part of this one, right? I wonder if they are getting any tweaking to their anti-psyker...

..ehh, general stuff in this pass, if anything. im done hoping for Stern, and ill be hsocked for anti-psyker support.

Leaks suggest that the main drive for the book is guess what - Marines. Sisters in the lore, Guard in the lore - Marines for lore AND Models AND Rules - as always

Nope.
Because it would kill them probably

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I get the argument, but you're drawing those conclusions too soon.

This has already happened, we've seen these numbers from events since the SM codex dropped. Other factions have quickly all but disappeared from the top 4s at events.

Correlation =/= causation. That's not proof of the SM Codex being too powerful.

It could very well be, but there are other plausible explanations (influx of people who want to play Marines after them being trash for two years, Marines being a powerful counter-meta faction, Iron Hands being too powerful pre-nerf but not post-nerf) too.

That's bollocks though if unoptimized marine lists literally kick out the established fine tuned ones on the first go that is a redflag imo.

I think everyone agrees that Space Marine launches have gotten to pretty absurd levels recently (at least I hope so). Seems odd when someone tells me, that as a Necron player, I should just wait for my turn to get something, and be patient. I think that they should lead by example, though, and be patient, and let someone other than themselves be in spotlight.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Karthicus wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
eh, whatever. Sure. Black Templars, a single subfaction within Codex: Space Marines, should probably get more rules content in PA than Codex: Drukhari. Give 'em the seven-layer dip chapter tactics, the special stratagems, their own relics, feth it, why not templaromancy psychic powers! How 'bout a special dreadnought with a sword, dreadnoughts haven't got swords yet.

Thanks for proving my point. How about you actually contribute something useful to the thread? We don't even have the BT content released yet and you are throwing a temper tantrum.

Surely you see his point though right?

A subfaction of a faction (BT) get MORE love and rules than an entire faction in DE or CWE. That is insanity and it makes no sense.

No one begrudges BT good, fluffy rules. What we begrudge is these subfactions getting MORE than entire Xenos factions. As Walrus said - my Speed Freeks/Evil Sunz should have exactly the same rule depth as these new Marine subfactions. They're nowhere near currently and though people keep saying "be patient" and "it's coming", nothing and I mean nothing suggests this. Quite the opposite, given the piss poor stuff Eldar got in Phoenix Rising.

GW need to take a good, hard look at their priorities or they risk ostracising a massive portion of their playerbase and they risk losing players (and therefore money).

I do see the point, but the reason I took issue is the way it was redirected as snarky comments toward BT players. I don't recall (and in fairness I don't read Dakka all the time) anyone giving Orks that level of snark when we had Orktober last year. The general community feel was "hey cool. Good for the Orks.", and frankly I think that should be the attitude when factions - like say BT - get some love when they haven't really had much attention in 5 editions.

Rail on GW with "wtf? X faction needs help!" and I don't think you will get much flack. Hell, I bet you will have plenty of people join in. Turning it into "how dare other players be happy they are getting attention! They dont need it, I do! They should check their privilege that they are X faction, and get out of the way of what I want!" is going to receive some push back, and makes things get toxic real quick.

In a perfect world, we would see ALL factions get the depth of rules they need. Maybe I am less Jaded than some of you because I have only been playing 40k for a couple of years, but from what I see in 8th edition it seems that GW has stepped up their game in terms of released and balance updates. We get Chapter Approved Q4 every year, and two large scale FAQ's each year - but this last one felt very small. I think that's progress compared to what I have been told 40k players have been given in years past.

I know that you are unhappy to some degree with where Orks currently are, but aren't they in a better place than before Orktober last year? There was improvement, yes? Hell, Spikey Bits just posted a link showing that Orks took 3rd in some tournament recently. Might be an outlier, but they aren't hot garbage it seems.

TLDR - Yes, understand the point, but being unhappy with what your chosen faction does or doesn't have should not be license to dump on players of other factions.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
There's an argument that more supplements for Marines actually increases diversity.

It increases the diversity of Marine lists, sure.

All else equal a game where you have a bunch of different Marine builds is more diverse than one where every Marine build is a monobuild. Having more diverse armies is good even if you don't play them yourself.

EDIT: I guess the way I see it, releases for the macro faction of a subfaction isn't necessarily beneficial to all the subfactions. An Ork Speed Freeks player wouldn't benefit much from better Lootas, an Iyanden player isn't benefitted from a hypothetical Shining Spears release, and a Black Templars player doesn't benefit when a bunch of stuff that's great for Ultramarines is released.

I gotta disagree. Let's compare the recent release for a second as a microcosm of this:

Drukhari are a single faction that have been functionally splintered. You CAN take a detachment that just has the DRUKHARI keyword, but it's the same as taking a detachment that just has the ASTARTES keyword - you lose all subfaction traits, stratagems, benefits etc.

The codex has been split into 3 - Wych Cults, Kabals, and Covens. For the most part with a few exceptions (The Fliers can be taken by both Cults and Kabals, and Transports are agnostic) the units of a certain type have been shunted into one particular subgroup.

All the fast, melee oriented units have been shuffled into Wych Cults (including Reavers, Beast Packs and Hellions, who are in fluff mercenaries who could be hired by any group)
All the shooting units have been sorted into Kabals.
All the tough, slow melee units have been put into Covens.

Compare to CWE, which are if anything, one of the most open factions in the game. They have a HUGE unit range and even their named characters can go with any faction except for a couple.

GW released two sets of custom chapter tactics in PA, I believe both had 22 traits in them. However, the CWE factions all got the same big list, and Drukhari factions got a trisected list of 7, 7, and 8.

There's no huge gulf of quality between the CWE traits and the Drukhari traits, but there are very, very few combinations of drukhari traits worth even considering. Kabals are saddled with several traits oriented toward melee and toward durability, despite being a faction of only T3 5+ bodies with exactly 0 dedicated melee units. Wych traits are mostly melee based which is good, and they're widely considered the best of the bunch, but the lower number of traits they were given does reduce their overall usefulness. Haemonculus Covens have 1 combo people are talking about.

By contrast there are around 10 CWE traits worth considering, in any combination, versus the best premade Craftworld rules. The more possible combinations you have that you can apply to the more possible combinations of units, the more you can make those builds work for you. a 6++ invuln trait would be useless if CWE were divided and the faction that got that trait was the "Wraithhosts" subfaction, but given the option to take a whole list of flimsy guardians, it's worth thinking about.

And then there's...well, the exact problem BT are having right now, which is the issue of same unit, very different rules. When (not if) gw gets back on their bs trying to balance the game by tweaking unit points values in Chapter Approved, how confident are you that they won't change Intercessors because of how good they are with, say, IF and UM and end up nerfing your mostly melee-focused BTs?

Bespoke subfaction rules make people FEEL really, really good. But their effect on balance versus just giving the units they benefit most the rules they need is...pretty debatable IMO.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I get the argument, but you're drawing those conclusions too soon.

This has already happened, we've seen these numbers from events since the SM codex dropped. Other factions have quickly all but disappeared from the top 4s at events.

True I mean orks in 2nd and 4th at midtcon, a tourney won by renegade knights, 2 gsc top places, orks 3rd at glass hammer open. There are more marines but tell me other factions can't beat them.

Be bored of marines. I'm bored of people acting like the tourney scene is the entire world and I'm bored of people whining about space marines.

It won't stop me playing but it does make me want to not care about other factions (which is concerning as a none marine player).

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
There's an argument that more supplements for Marines actually increases diversity.

It increases the diversity of Marine lists, sure.

All else equal a game where you have a bunch of different Marine builds is more diverse than one where every Marine build is a monobuild. Having more diverse armies is good even if you don't play them yourself.

Yes but all else isn't equal. The diversity of different lists has actually dropped as all of those factions that aren't SM have virtually disappeared from competitive play. No more Orks. No more Eldar. No more Dark Eldar. No more Ynnari. No more Necrons. No more Tau. You get the picture?

Source for previously mentioned tournament - https://spikeybits.com/2019/10/this-weeks-top-3-homebrew-40k-army-lists-for-the-meta.html

1 - IF
2 - GSC
3 - Orks

the_scotsman wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
There's an argument that more supplements for Marines actually increases diversity.

It increases the diversity of Marine lists, sure.

All else equal a game where you have a bunch of different Marine builds is more diverse than one where every Marine build is a monobuild. Having more diverse armies is good even if you don't play them yourself.

EDIT: I guess the way I see it, releases for the macro faction of a subfaction isn't necessarily beneficial to all the subfactions. An Ork Speed Freeks player wouldn't benefit much from better Lootas, an Iyanden player isn't benefitted from a hypothetical Shining Spears release, and a Black Templars player doesn't benefit when a bunch of stuff that's great for Ultramarines is released.

I gotta disagree. Let's compare the recent release for a second as a microcosm of this:

Drukhari are a single faction that have been functionally splintered. You CAN take a detachment that just has the DRUKHARI keyword, but it's the same as taking a detachment that just has the ASTARTES keyword - you lose all subfaction traits, stratagems, benefits etc.

The codex has been split into 3 - Wych Cults, Kabals, and Covens. For the most part with a few exceptions (The Fliers can be taken by both Cults and Kabals, and Transports are agnostic) the units of a certain type have been shunted into one particular subgroup.

All the fast, melee oriented units have been shuffled into Wych Cults (including Reavers, Beast Packs and Hellions, who are in fluff mercenaries who could be hired by any group)
All the shooting units have been sorted into Kabals.
All the tough, slow melee units have been put into Covens.

Compare to CWE, which are if anything, one of the most open factions in the game. They have a HUGE unit range and even their named characters can go with any faction except for a couple.

GW released two sets of custom chapter tactics in PA, I believe both had 22 traits in them. However, the CWE factions all got the same big list, and Drukhari factions got a trisected list of 7, 7, and 8.

There's no huge gulf of quality between the CWE traits and the Drukhari traits, but there are very, very few combinations of drukhari traits worth even considering. Kabals are saddled with several traits oriented toward melee and toward durability, despite being a faction of only T3 5+ bodies with exactly 0 dedicated melee units. Wych traits are mostly melee based which is good, and they're widely considered the best of the bunch, but the lower number of traits they were given does reduce their overall usefulness. Haemonculus Covens have 1 combo people are talking about.

By contrast there are around 10 CWE traits worth considering, in any combination, versus the best premade Craftworld rules. The more possible combinations you have that you can apply to the more possible combinations of units, the more you can make those builds work for you. a 6++ invuln trait would be useless if CWE were divided and the faction that got that trait was the "Wraithhosts" subfaction, but given the option to take a whole list of flimsy guardians, it's worth thinking about.

And then there's...well, the exact problem BT are having right now, which is the issue of same unit, very different rules. When (not if) gw gets back on their bs trying to balance the game by tweaking unit points values in Chapter Approved, how confident are you that they won't change Intercessors because of how good they are with, say, IF and UM and end up nerfing your mostly melee-focused BTs?

Bespoke subfaction rules make people FEEL really, really good. But their effect on balance versus just giving the units they benefit most the rules they need is...pretty debatable IMO.

That's not much different from Orks getting repeatedly dumpstered or Chaos getting to be great for two months at the start of 6th edition. The problem is not intrinsic to supplements, it's in making some abilities far stronger than others (cf. Word Bearers vs, Alpha Legion).