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I just get the feeling that for Tyranids are incredibly underpriced even as a swarm army. I mean, when you compare a Termagaunt to lets say a Guardian the differences are incredibly low and yet Gaunts are cheaper and so better than Eldar Guardians. Also you can have Gaunts at 8 points per model which wound on 2's which is insanely cheap! Most upgrades (with some exceptions) are very cost effective and I just get the feeling that the Tyranids can be a bit of a teabagging army at times.
What do you think? I want no harsh comments saying how I'm completely wrong; this is just my opinion and maybe I am wrong. Post your comments and please vote in the poll.

I mostly just hope to mow down enough to make cc a little easier. Usually I dont theough. ugh... I hate nids

SkeTcHy LaRRy wrote: ugh... I hate nids

ugh....same

The thing you have to remember is Guardians are from an old codex. You should compare Tyranids to new dex units if you want to get a fair cost comparison.

Also, in your example, remember a gaunt needs babysitting if it isn't going to go all silly.

What are you trying to wound on '2's? Gaunts can be poisoned 4+ and/or furious charge, iirc, so they are mostly looking at '3's or '4's.

Some of the cheapness might be from the excellent synergies in the book. If you take them apart piece by piece, they are quite reasonable, I'd say.

Except you cant look at units in isolation like that. Sure, hormagaunts are cheap except they cant kill tanks, are going to get slaughtered by the time they reach combat (which is going to happen every game), and even then are not guaranteed a win. Then you look at the necessary support for synapse and tank hunting, and then you realize they really arnt that cheap. A Hive Tyrant costs 200+ points. Carnifex are 160+. It balances out. Also, termagaunts are just meatshields in my opinion. I find them completely useless.

If you want to compare unit to unit, why not an Ork boy who is the same price? What about a Chaos Marine who gets frags, bolters, ccw and pistol plus a better statline and rhino protection for only 2.5x the points?

Tyranids are struggling enough with tank armies as is, no need to make them even worse.

Tyranids struggle to field tank armies. You still don't think they have enough tank-busting potential?

Any list that isn't specifically geared to busting tanks will struggle against all-mech chicanery but you can build a decent anti-tank list, at least imo.

Yeah, a Termagant may stack up well to a Guardian, but not quite so much to a Guardsman for the same point cost. And a Hormagaunt is pretty unimpressive when compared to the exactly-the-same-cost Ork Boy (Shoota or Choppa/Slugga).

And in terms of the bigger things...most of the MC's don't compare very favorably when stacked against similar costed things (which is basically vehicles, walkers, and a handful of other MC's). Compared to most IG tanks (barring the Deathstrike), to Dreadnoughts, or to Daemon Princes and Greater Daemons, the Nids certainly don't come out looking undercosted most of the time. I know opinions can vary about how much they're overcosted (or whether they even are) or whether there's even any merit in making comparisons like that. But I know that outside of a couple stray things (like Hive Guard) there's very little in the book that I would even begin to consider undercosted.

I can remember being surprised at the low points costs the first time I saw the cost of the new Ork Boyz, Bloodcrushers, Thunderwolf Cavalry, HB Razorbacks, and Vendettas. Not a thing in that book jumped out at me and made me say "wow, that's cheap."

The tyranids stack together really well. Good for huge battles with loads of synergy but bad for small games where you kill the tyranid warriors and everything else gets confused.

Tyranids are *supposed* to be swarms of expendable troops, so cheap is the way to go. I don't think they're undercosted and the high cost of the big boys make 'em fair.

Now, if you had the statline of, say, a vanilla space marine, had power armor, bolter, bolt pistol, frag/krak grenades, and ATSKNF... and then also had a close combat weapon, Acute Senses, Counter-Attack, free special weapons for numbering 10 models, and could have one hidden powerfist with d6+1 base attacks... and cost one point less per man than a vanilla space marine, then you'd have something that was undercosted. But that's just ridiculous. GW would never make something like that, much less as basic troops!

I think they are just right.
The MCs are rather expensive while the troops are rather cheap; some kind of compensation.

Skarboy wrote:Now, if you had the statline of, say, a vanilla space marine, had power armor, bolter, bolt pistol, frag/krak grenades, and ATSKNF... and then also had a close combat weapon, Acute Senses, Counter-Attack, free special weapons for numbering 10 models, and could have one hidden powerfist with d6+1 base attacks... and cost one point less per man than a vanilla space marine, then you'd have something that was undercosted. But that's just ridiculous. GW would never make something like that, much less as basic troops!

I see what you did there >.>

Compare Gants to a regular guardsmen. Better initiative in return for a worse armour save, seems fair to me.

Tyranid basic swarm troops are cheap, however the army has two vulnerabilities -- tanks and reliance on synapse.

If the opponent can eliminate the few anti-tank and Synapse creatures available, the rest of the swarm will drop its plan under the influence of instinctive behaviour. Then you have the opportunity to avoid it or mop with with flamers and nearly invulnerable vehicles.

@Skarboy: Very true, although I don't believe the Mark of the Wulfen stacks with a PFist. I seem to recall the description being that he tears things asunder with his bare hands and anger...no using any weapons.

Skarboy wrote:Tyranids are *supposed* to be swarms of expendable troops, so cheap is the way to go. I don't think they're undercosted and the high cost of the big boys make 'em fair.

Now, if you had the statline of, say, a vanilla space marine, had power armor, bolter, bolt pistol, frag/krak grenades, and ATSKNF... and then also had a close combat weapon, Acute Senses, Counter-Attack, free special weapons for numbering 10 models, and could have one hidden powerfist with d6+1 base attacks... and cost one point less per man than a vanilla space marine, then you'd have something that was undercosted. But that's just ridiculous. GW would never make something like that, much less as basic troops!

yea, if my space wolves could get d6+1 base power fist attacks then they would be way undercosted. As is they are fine though.

(they cannot by the way, MotW cannot be combined with any CCWs)

nevermind guy before me allready covered it.

GG

I like it when all attacks are directed at my carnifex but regenerate gains its life back making my cheap expendable units to swarm the enemy. Those tactics killed Abbadon the Despoiler so cheap units are the way to go.

The only reason bugs stack well to eldar infantry is because they are a new dex, and eldar are out dated. Look at every codex that has come out so far in 5th. the troops are cheaper and better then 4th edition books. The only exceptions i could see to this would be chaos marines.

I think the little bugs are priced right, the big ones need a slight reduction. A trygon prime shouldnt cost as much as a land raider.

It's easier to one-shot a Land Raider than a Trygon Prime, and the Land Raider doesn't provide C&C capability.

Its not necessarily easier. Just possible. Can a plasma gun hurt a land raider. Do krak missiles and lascannons have much chance of hurting one?

I grappled the shoggoth wrote:Its not necessarily easier. Just possible. Can a plasma gun hurt a land raider. Do krak missiles and lascannons have much chance of hurting one?

Can LASGUNS hurt a Land Raider? (A lasgun has the same chance of wounding a Trygon as it does of killing a terminator.)

I was thinking of Instant Kill.

Lots of weapons can instant kill a trygon. Force weapons are perhaps the most common, but not the only example.

Well you need a weapon with S=2xT or else a special Instant Kill rule.

There aren't that many special weapons like that on a typical battlefield compared with Lascannons, Railguns and so on.

Kilkrazy wrote:I was thinking of Instant Kill.

And we're just pointing out the flip-side - it's possible to one-shot kill a Land Raider, but a TMC is vulnerable to far more. (And those same weapons that can one-shot a Land Raider are far more likely to wound a TMC: 5/6 of lascannon hits wound a Trygon, but only 5/18 of lascannon hits inflict lasting damage on a Land Raider. The only thing that comes close is the Zoanthrope Warp Lance - 5/6 to 23/36.)

And yes, there are still Force Weapons, Wraithguard, and Jaws of the World Wolf to contend with.

i dont like nids now that they do not have without number. in 4th ed their points values were perfect. now they are a little cheap.


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srry computer was lagging

i dont like nids now that they do not have without number. in 4th ed their points values were perfect. now they are a little cheap.

The points values seem good - both big bug and swarm are viable, with a median between the two seeming to be the best - which is pretty much what I would hope for.

Tervigons as troops seem a little cheap, as on average they get back 2/3 of their points by generating termagaunts, however this book REALLY makes you think about synergy.

I think the MC's cost to much i miss the Nidzilla armies. :(

All the MC's, with the exception of the troop tervigon, are poorly implemented in my opinon. Now, I dont mind the base point values making the big bugs cost as much as a land raider (they should be landraider-esque), but the upgrades and the base stats are all simply stupid. Why is every single big bug t6 (and several little bugs are t6 too)? Why are they all only s6 max (save for fex)? The stats are actually all pretty bland for what is supposed to be a diverse selection of bio creatures.

IE: A t-fex and a mawloc have almost identical profiles, yet are completely different beasts with completely different roles. A 3+ save versus a 2+ save is a very poor difference in profiles for such otherwise completely different beasts.