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OK guys, I've been playing Space Marines for a very long time. They were my army of choice back in 2nd edition and are again in 5th. My problem is that I just can not win with them. No matter how I tweak my list, no matter how many tactical how-to's I read and listen to. I don't know if I can blame it on my dice rolls anymore. I'm not a master tactician, but I'm not a bad one, my tactics for the most part are sound... I think. Does the Space Marine codex just not have enough power within its cover to win?

Armies I typically play against: Chaos Space Marines, Orks, Chaos Daemons and Tyranids. Usually at either 750 or 1000 points.

I'm reaching out for any help I can get. Thanks.

Typical 750 list:

HQ
Chaplain, digital weapons (thinking about moving to a Librarian)

Troops
Tactical Squad, +5, missile launcher, flamer, melta bombs, razorback
Tactical Squad, +5, missile launcher, flamer, rhino w/ stormbolter

Fast Attack
Landspeeder, multi-melta

Heavy Suppost
Predator, twin-link las, heavy bolter sponsons, extra armour

at low point values Space Marines are not that good. My biggest recommendation is to play larger games so you can field some stronger toys, like assault termies and land raiders.

Also, your list could use some tweaking,

Preds with TLLC and HB sponsons are a bad choice, autocannon with las sponsons, autocannon with heavy bolter sponsons, or full las cannon loadouts are all better.
The reason for this is cost vs benefit, you are paying 70 points with the TLLC/HBs for either bolter shots that will plink off the armor of tanks, or a single lascannon shot that might kill a single infantry model.
with the Autocannon/lascannon build you save 10 points but get a couple more shots that can threaten light vehicles when you shoot them, and against infantry you still have 4 shots that are likely to hurt.
with the full lascannon loadout it becomes a tank hunter, its expensive, but if you face lots of armor its worth it.
with the autocannon/HB loadout its cheap, at only +25 points, and gives you a good load of dice to throw at infantry.

Space Marines are a very easy army to use, but a difficult army to absolutely master. If your opponents are equally good tacticians it may be a little difficult, but you shouldn't be in the situation where its impossible for you to win, they don't have an underpowered codex.
I regularly play against ork's and SM's with my 3 armies and the win/loose ratio is pretty even between me and the SM's (my orky friend plays entirely for fun so just play's with crazy lists but we have great fun whilst he normally gets beaten ).
there doesn't seem to be much wrong with your list, but I'll have a look to see what i can come up with for such a small amount of points

I find at such low points that you want mobility over firepower. The predator, which really wants to sit still and shoot, is probably not a great investment. Razorbacks, speeders, and the like are going to be your best bet.

Nah, the SM codex is competitive but only within certain point ranges. 1850-ish and they start to become really competitive.
Smaller 400p games SM cant do anything and 1000p games you can be competitive only if you cheese out your build a lot and not play a fun build.

Certain units in the codex are unusable and will hopefully get a remake in the next SM codex in the future.
Chaplains are useless now if not worse then useless.
Captains and masters are close to useless.
Librarians and the named characters is the only thing being used since you get at least some worth for the points.

Vanguards are a joke, so over priced that I havent seen one single unit of those in any tournament or even friendly game since the codex got out.

Thunderfire cannons are to random, yes you get a bargain for the points but often facing mech armies means they are one of those to risky units to take and they are also far to easy to destroy.
When I think of a thunderfire I think of orks and their randomness.

Legion of the damned, another big joke, they cost so much its not even funny and die just as easy to normal shooting and attacks.
With common options in the codex that do the same they do for less points this unit will have to either get FnP, cost less points of never, ever in a hundred years be used in anything then purely fun gameplay by people who really like to loose.

Devastator squads, another overpriced unit that only works reasonably well if taken en masse and thus limited to just a few builds. Nobody ever uses them due to their ridiculous point costs.

Honour guard, yet another joke unit. They suck so much nobody ever uses them. Having an allied grey knight terminator squad as a stand in instead of the defenseless honourguard is way more effective. They also force the player to take a master and with better HQs to choose from the master is seldom seen.

Same goes for command squads, they just cost to much for what they do and force the player to take a useless captain.

All in all the SM army that is competitive rely on landraiders (and/or) pods, as few tactical squads as possible, terminators with hammers, predators or massed dreads, MM attackbikes or MM/HF speeders, all led by librarians or special characters. The whole codex is a big fail when it comes to lots of varying builds that use lots of different units since half the units are totally useless and overpriced, one third are balanced and one third are slightly over powered.
This leads to a codex that could very ell have ditched half its unit entries and no body would ever see any difference on the table top.

I can just hope someone shows this very thread to the GW developement team for examples of things to fix for an upcoming SM codex.

If you play Sallies or don't care for fluff I'd try:

Vulkan He'stan

Tac Squad (9)
Flamer
Power fist
Rhino

Tac Squad (10)
Multi-Melta
Flamer
Rhino

Land Speeder
Multi-Melta
Heavy Flamer

Land Speeder
Multi-Melta
Heavy Flamer

749 Points

Just abusing Vulkans chapter tactics, Melta any vehicles, flame the men inside, wash rinse repeat

Well...it looks ok, but that flamer is illegal on the 9 man squad.

I've found that SM can be competitive at low points, so long as your opponent isn't taking much in the way of anti-vehicle. I've played plenty of games where a 500 or 1000 point game went well for the SM because my opponent couldn't pop Rhinos reliably. (And yes, I know it takes about the force of a stiff wind to do it, but still.)

Sanctjud wrote:Well...it looks ok, but that flamer is illegal on the 9 man squad.

aah good point, i thought it was only the missile launcher or its replacement that required the squad to be at full size

I would switch the Chaplain for a Librarian, save 10 points on the DW, and use those points to put a Plasma Cannon in Tac 1, and a Meltagun for Tac 2.

^ What he said, simple and effective.

Based on your opponents, it looks like they would likely want to crush you in melee, so maintain your distance and mobility while whittling them down. The list presented (final, modified version) should help you out. Those flamers and MM will do you wonders and if you keep those rhinos moving away from the blobs and/or monstrous creatures, you will increase your chances. But, as pointed out, SM are a little weak in lower point games and especially against horde armies that can exploit the low points with massed numbers. I imagine the orks, nids, and maybe even daemons are putting out quite a few models at this level and that will be a struggle to deal with.

Skarboy wrote:Based on your opponents, it looks like they would likely want to crush you in melee, so maintain your distance and mobility while whittling them down. The list presented (final, modified version) should help you out. Those flamers and MM will do you wonders and if you keep those rhinos moving away from the blobs and/or monstrous creatures, you will increase your chances. But, as pointed out, SM are a little weak in lower point games and especially against horde armies that can exploit the low points with massed numbers. I imagine the orks, nids, and maybe even daemons are putting out quite a few models at this level and that will be a struggle to deal with.

The biggest issue is dealing with the greater daemon of Nurgle my one buddy puts out there. Between the invulnerable saves, FnP and enough wounds to shrug off the whole army unloading into it... WTF am I supposed to do?

Get a Librarian with Null Zone, a Captain, and arm the Command Squad with three Plasma Guns and an Apothecary. Also, maybe a squad of Sternguard with two Plasma Guns and then some Combi-Plasma Guns. The invulnerable saves will be re-rolled, the Plasma will wound on a 3+, and ignore Feel No Pain.

It's slow, so out pace it and focus on killing everything else.
But yea, not much to do at 750-1000.

If you want a Close Combat HQ, go with a captain armed with a relic blade. I've played something like 5-6 games against my friend's fledgling Space Marine force, his captain has killed my warboss every single time. The captain+Relic blade is a great assaulter, and with helfire shells in his boltgun he's not a bad shooter either.

if you want a support HQ, go with the librarian...though at such a small points value I doubt you'll have any need of his psy-hood, but avenger could be pretty devastating and nullzone will make chaos cry.

Other than that, and the advice on your predator tank, I think practice is more the key.

In that small a points list I would steer away from the Chaplain. As others have said I would focus on firepower and mobility. A librarian could really help fill this role with Gate of Infinity and one of the Shooty powers.

A little bit of armor also goes a long way in low points games. A dakka pred sounds like a very sound choice.

Ya, basicly space marines, being a new codex, are great. However, like Pyriel states, you could get rid of 1/3rd the entries and most competitive builds wouldnt notice.

As others have said, libbies are fantastic HQs. You can even go Termie armor storm shield, with null zone and vortex, and have a pretty uber little guy with a redeemer for transport.

At 750-1k, the points are so low that most games will be dominated by the most broke model on the table, or 1 lucky set of dice. If you up your points to 1500+, I think you will appreciate the marines more.

For example, you could run 2x5 ccw scouts, 1 vanilla libby, and 2 land raider redeemers with multimeltas at 750. A completely stupid force that autowins versus a ton of other 750 point forces... or you could up your points to 1500+, and then both players will likely have more variety and better games.

After playing many MANY game against the marines I have found them to be surprisingly weak. Which is sad because normally they are at least good for a challenge.

The biggest weakness of Marines is their sheer numbers in the metagame. Everyone knows how to beat them and everyone plans for them. Other than that, they are a solid, flexible army that can at least hold its own against other 5th Edition Codicies.

But yeah... at <1500 points, I don't think you can buy enough toys to make them work.

DevianID wrote:For example, you could run 2x5 ccw scouts, 1 vanilla libby, and 2 land raider redeemers with multimeltas at 750.

I don't see 2 Redeemer purchases happening, but I'm seeing that I need armour and lots of it. I agree with the librarian for sure.

Gornall wrote:The biggest weakness of Marines is their sheer numbers in the metagame. Everyone knows how to beat them and everyone plans for them. Other than that, they are a solid, flexible army that can at least hold its own against other 5th Edition Codicies.

But yeah... at <1500 points, I don't think you can buy enough toys to make them work.

This, and a lot of army's have lots of stuff geared specifically to kill marines, tau anyone? rail rifles, ion guns(i think, the ones on the HH), vespid, when that codex came out my eyes nearly burst from all the AP3 nastiness, as if the stuff in the first codex wasn't anti marine enough, still at least if you can weather the ranged attacks they're nice and squishy in CC

Railrifles: I don't see that many use them.
Ion Guns: a few but the RoF is meh.
Vespids: who takes them seriously.

AP3 is not the issue IMO, esp. if cover is readily available. It's that the most economical way of downing them is weight of fire, coupled with average to lowish model count makes for somewhat of an uphill climb if you do go up against ready opponents...but most likely your opponent will be SM too

Oh and frigging battlecannons before cover became useful/prominent had one game where one leman russ got 3 hits in a row on 3 separate squads... Soul Destroying... low ap weapons dont bother my termi's had 10 LC assault termi's hold up 2 dreads for 3 turns losing only 2of their number till i got a hidden powerfist tac squad in there to finish the job, then lost 4 termi's to 6 bolt pistol shots next turn

I think I've come up with a more competitive 750 list...

Let me know what you guys think.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/281324.page#1366818

You know, at 750, I would almost say just go 2 5 man squads and maybe a unit of 5 scouts with no upgrades if you absolutely felt you needed another troop. That lets you put your points into the things that will win you games.

Definitely switch the chappie to a librarian as he has great options and in your previous list there is no synergy with his assaultiness.

Maybe it is just me, but I hate smaller points games.

I'll only play games at under 1750 for league games, and even then I'll beg to bring it up to at least 1750 points.

Space marines ARE competitive at 1850+, mostly with the use of special characters (Vulkan, Pedro, & Khan).

Hi,

I'm a Space Marines player, and while have only been playing 40K since this past summer, I find them very effective and very competitive, but only when the lists are built competitively. Fluff aside, you literally need to micro-manage each of your points, to try to get the most for each point.

Tip #1: In games less than 3000 points, avoid using high point cost units. Try to keep the majority of each of your units to a max of 200, and for those that cost more than 200, make sure that they are versatile and mobile enough to get into the fray when needed and out of trouble when things get dicey. Units to avoid include Land Raiders, Sternguard, Vanguard, Honorguard, Command Squads, and Devastator Squads.

Tip #2: Specialize your units for specific duties (ie - Anti-vehicle or Anti-infantry). Don't mix your units to do a little of both. In your list, you use a Predator with a TL Lascannon and SS of Heavy Bolters. Not a wise choice. With only 1 Lascannon shot, you minimize your chances of denting any vehicle, and while 6 Heavy Bolter shots can do quite a bit of damage against infantry, having 2 shots with the Autocannon outweigh the usefulness of a single TL Lascannon.

Tip #3: In smaller point games (<1000 - 1000), bring the units that give you the most shots. "He who shoots more will score more hits, and eventually kill more models". Space Marines are very reliable and versatile, but at the same time can be very expensive, so it's important to know where best to allocate points. In low point games, I would rely less on Heavy Support units, and use more Elites instead, since they have a lot of Heavy Support capabilities, but tend to be more versatile.

That being said, Space Marines have some of the best Elite units in the game, ranging from the best Armor Saves, to being great Anti-Infantry and Anti-Vehicle, all in one. My personal favorite is the Ironclad Dreadnought. Here's how I usually equip it:

Heavy Flamer - 10 Points
Meltagun - Free
Ironclad Assault Launchers - 15 Points
2 HK Missiles - 20 Points
Total 180 Points

It's armor values are 13 13 10, (strongest of all the Dreadnoughts). It comes with Extra Armor (which you need to buy with any other vehicle), Move Through Cover (making it more CC versatile), and an additional CC weapon (giving it 3 attacks, or 4 on a charge). The Seismic Hammer, in addition to being a CC weapon, also adds a +1 bonus to the vehicle damage chart (effectively making it an AP 1 weapon against vehicles).

For 180 points, I'd sooner invest the points into this piece than a single Predator.

At any rate, I hope my advice helps. If you have anymore questions, please feel free to ask.

I've been playing a 500pts list that uses many of the elements mentioned above, including a Dreadnought.

The Ironclad Dreadnought is definitely a nice vehicle, though in this small points games I use a standard normal Dreadnought without upgrades.

The Problem I experienced with this is, again, related to model count. Yeah, a Dreadnought freaks out many enemy units because it will devastate things left and right if it gets lucky. The problem is, of course, that the enemy pours a lot of firepower into it - and a single meltagun can doom the Dread.

So, as with the general low model count of SM and relying on successful 3+ saves - I noticed this Dreanought was what could win me the game or lose me the game, dependent if it would get shot up before it could wreak havoc or if it could blast away an enemy unit each round.

This is all a bit unstructured, I feel. I guess what I'm trying to say is, with the few models Marines have on the table, you need have very good plans and very good alternatives about what to do with each unit. Example: One game of my SM against Guard - Dread drop-podded next to a Vendetta that moved flat-out, pen was guaranteed, 50% of damage chart results would've killed the thing. But hey, it misses its to-hit throw (BS 5, venerable dread) and dies miserably to heavy AT fire next round (which couldve been avoided by Vendetta destruction). Another game - SM against Guard - Dread drop-podded next to a Chimera, destroyed it. Went to next Chimera, destroyed it. Went to next vetsquad, destroyed it. Went to next Chimera, destroyed it. - What made the day for this one Dread was probably the fact that I chose my deep-striking position as far away from any meltas as I could manage while trying to keep out of LOS of the big AT guns, too, which worked to my surprise. But if I would've scattered the deepstrike, if I would have made the mistake of running into lascannon LOS, if I would've used my smoke launcher too early...the Dread might very well have been toast.

Uh, so, what I wanted to say was: My experience seems to be that Marines at small points can be strong, but are rather unforgiving, on the verge of relying on luck with their saves sometimes. One mistake, one or two unlucky rolls and whee, there goe the Spess Muhreens.

*throws rock*

Whoops--hit a marine player.

Now, hitting a good marine player is a whole 'nuther thing entirely...