Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I'm trying to put together a pretty sick but expensive HQ slot for my Blood Raven army. It revolves around SM Bikes as one of their options. I'm trying create a hard to kill Bike Unit....kind of like the Nobz on Bikes idea. So here we go:

Space Marine Captain- storm shield, relic blade, artificer armour, Space Marine Bike = 180

Command Squad- ALL on Bikes, two thunder hammers, two power fists, 3 melta guns, 2 flamers, lightning claw, 5 storm shields = 445

Do you think this is overkill point wise towards HQ selection?

I'm just trying something different...

I would drop the fists and grab some more claws. It's a great unit. And don't forget the apothecary gives them all feel no pain.

Captain: is not priced correctly.
Either way, choose Storm Shield or Art Armor, IMO both is too expensive.

Command Squad: too many Fist equivalents, you really need to keep costs low with that squad.
5 Special weapons and 5 stormshileds is illegal, the Apoth can't take gear.

It's over the top yes, esp. points wise, at the end of the day, no matter how durable they are it's just 6 models...and they will fall if the enemy applies enough force. Their saves get over loaded easily.

Just know what they can bite and you are good to go.

what I'm trying to do though, is having more of a mix of wargear to optimize wound distribution like the Nobz on Bikes do.

But perhaps dropping one fist for a lightning claw wouldn't hurt as long as I distribute the flamers/meltaguns accordingly.

good idea.

That works for Nobs because they are multi-wound models. With a Command Squad, one wound anywhere but the Captain will remove a model.

Optimizing Wound allocation just pales in comparison to it being done on Nobz...so YMMV much more on Command Squads than Nobz.

Again, the squad is illegal so far.

Oops ....your right about the apothecary(he is NOT a vet)...I'll have to revamp.

good call on the captain...I forgot to add the cost of Artificer

xxx=+relic blade(for chainsword)xxx=+storm shield(for bolt pistol)xxx=+Artificer Armour xxx=+Space Marine Bike xxx=195=LEGAL

Another illegal thing, posting points costs...
195 is painfully expensive.

What's the rest of the army, what points costs is the game... I think there are plenty of other factors that contribute to the formation of a unit besides itself.

stormshields are LEGAL for vets combined with the other options...IT is separate from the option to replace his chainsword and/or bolt pistol.

ANY vet can have the following:

-melta bombs +5pts
-a storm shield +15 pts


Automatically Appended Next Post:
how is that illegal ?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
same price as Vulkan He'stan 190 so what is your reasoning?

as much as I love this idea, and I do.
I kinda have to agree, what make the Knobs so powerful is that they are multi wound models.
Don't get me wrong i've been a SM player since day one. and often times the HQ's are overpriced and die way to easy, this i think would happen with this bike squad.

I think the best bet that we space marine players have is if there is a special unit for a specific chapter. I like the idea of Raven Gaurd fielding full combat squads of Librarians, or mixed armor HQ units, these units would be better suited to use wound allocation. well the Librarians especially.

Maybe coming up in Blood Angels codex there will be some cool berserker unit (not Death Company.. or maybe?) that get extra wound(s) cuz they are so hard to kill.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
i'm a dummy..... not raven gaurd.... blood ravens

my thread was about just the HQ choices....not the entire list....

Apoth is not a vet.
__________

Vulkan and Captain have alot of gear that add up to around that points level, but Vulkan has the Force Multiplier, a huge different.

My reasoning for the Captain being too expensive is because he could be cheaper...(besides the Chapter Tactics issue).

so far I agree with the point of the command squad bikers not having the same amount of wounds as the Nobz.....

obviously something I overlooked

WarsawTom wrote:my thread was about just the HQ choices....not the entire list....

Did you not read my reasoning for asking you about the rest of the list?

I guess....

I'll have to go back to the drawing board...haha!

just an idea thanks for the feedback though

Given that you're discussing the loadout of a unit, and not an entire army, this would usually be the kind of thread that goes in Tactics. Moving.

Also edited out point costs for individual upgrades. Please don't post those.

the Nobz are an elite choice (right?), so it doesn't bode well that in order to get something close the elite level of orks, we SM players need to sacrifice an HQ? I think if there were a special unit somewhere in SM dex's that could go toe to toe with Nobz, it hasn't been created yet, at least for wound allocation purposes.

Sanctjud-I know what your reasoning was. I'm not at the stage of putting a certain points limit on the list yet.

I was just trying to create a tough unit and then build my army around it.

It would probably be for an 'Ard Boyz list or something similar.

The rest of my army would probably revolve around alot of Tac squads in Rhinos or something that will be cost effective to balance out my expensive HQ idea


Automatically Appended Next Post:
sorry didn't know points costs were not allowed to be posted.

my bad.

wait.. i am confused, why can you not post points costs???

I have no idea. maybe copyright laws?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
man.....I need some more coffee.

I see where my mistakes were now. sorry. will take all considerations into account.

Hey tom, would like to see how your blood ravens came out, being a 'Raven player myself.

As for Command Bikers, I once talked a bit about them, though cant quite remember where I posted it.

For me, it basicly came down to 2 builds.

First is Khan on Moondrakken.
He gets command bikers with 4 storm shields, 4 lightning claws, and 4 plasma guns.

Second is Captain with JUST Relic and Bike
He gets command bikers with 4 storm shields, 4 meltaguns, and 4 powerfists.

Both builds do different things, so obviously you have to take the build that best benefits your army. BUT, I recommend not diversifing your command bikers and pretty much sticking to the above builds. You pay a lot for these guys collection of shooting/speed/cc, and if you just want overall power you should be bringing THSS termies instead of command bikes of doom. Plus, whatever you need the command bikers to do, they need to do it WELL, better than anything anyone else can do, otherwise what was the point right?

What command bikes do for you is give you a great deathstar that is still easy to hide behind a rhino wall to prevent LOS weapons from targeting you. With t5, a 3+/3++/4+fnp, you are as tough as a THSS termie versus most things, and even tougher at times. They also give you great shooting with either 4 plasma or 4 melta.

Finally, they beat most deathstars--Eldar seer council have trouble getting past a 3+ followed by a 4+fnp, Nob bikers have trouble killing the squad before suffering large numbers of instant death or larger numbers of PW wounds, same goes for thunderwolves or blood crushers. In all cases I would include a Null Zone Libby of some sort as the second HQ.

Now, the real question with these guys for me became, 'Do I want such a powerful tool that requires a great amount of finese?' I answered no, because when I want a fast beasty deathstar I bring Shrike + 10 THSS termies infiltrating and fleeting into the enemies face.

However, whatever your deathstar is, the whole rest of the army needs to both be able to support it, AND be able to win without it should things go south.

I like biker command squads. One battlecannon or Earthshaker round and I just killed about 500 points of your army.

Irdiumstern wrote:I like biker command squads. One battlecannon or Earthshaker round and I just killed about 500 points of your army.

as with anything in most armies you have to hit first lol, but yes that is a problem.

on the other hand if you have good support unit, your bad to the bone biker squad, can draw enough fire to free up the rest of your army.

I played against an IG player (yes i lost eventually) who had what amounted to 5 or 6 large template guns, and an areal vehichle with las cannons, and needless to say he directed eveything he had at a rhino, and only managed to stun it. so yes all it takes is one good template shot, but those can be few and far between.

I like the idea of it, but I am pretty new to the game.

I would go with a named Captain on a bike.

Apothecary=no extra equipment

Company Champion has power weapon and combat shield at no extra cost

3 Veterans with power fists, storm shields and melta bombs.

All assault all day long and maybe take down some armor too.

It's the model count:points ratio that IMO doesn't have the Command Squad in wide usage (bike or not).

First is Khan on Moondrakken.
He gets command bikers with 4 storm shields, 4 lightning claws, and 4 plasma guns.

Not even one fist?

Second is Captain with JUST Relic and Bike
He gets command bikers with 4 storm shields, 4 meltaguns, and 4 powerfists.

This is overkill in terms of fists:squad cost ratio.

IMO spreading out the fists would make more sense and leaving at most 2 on the Command Squad.

If you are confident in guestimating ranges and working the kiting aspect, then IMO get a priarily shooting Command Squad (plasma).
If you are not confident, then maybe go with the combatty type, but I recommend a mix then.

Meltas, Claws, one fist. Even then I'm not too crazy about it.

The original version of the unit is just too easy to kill at I2 and higher.
Your biker command squad members have one wound each, and all have wepaons that attack at I1. Even with a stormshield on each one, you're losing some seriously expensive models to one bad roll. One battlecannon shot causes every one of them to take a save, as does a volley of crappy shooting from an IG platoon or Ork Boyz mob.
In melee, I'm assuming you're using these guys as some sort of tank hunter unit? Because if you charge them into an IG platoon, or even a tactical squad with a power weapon, you're taking saves and removing models that never got to attack with their fists and/or hammers. The only guy doing any damage is the Captain, and he can be ignored after he gets his attacks out! Weight of attacks is going to be the death of this unit.

With the Captain, go for a bike, relic blade, and arty armor. He already has a 4++ save from his Iron Halo. The points for the shield don't justify it for a boost to a 3++. I'd also recommend Hellfire Rounds for him, as you'll be getting two twin-linked, BS5 bolter shots at 12" that wound on a 2+. Great way to take down a couple of wounds or squad members before the charge.

TheRhino wrote:
With the Captain, go for a bike, relic blade, and arty armor. He already has a 4++ save from his Iron Halo. The points for the shield don't justify it for a boost to a 3++. I'd also recommend Hellfire Rounds for him, as you'll be getting two twin-linked, BS5 bolter shots at 12" that wound on a 2+. Great way to take down a couple of wounds or squad members before the charge.

this is a great little piece of advice, i love love hellfire rounds, and believe me, every time I've taken them i always manage to get at least an extra wound somewhere with that 2+

its too bad there is no way to mount up stern guard on bikes...... now that would be a shooty unit.

hmmm.......