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Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought





Eye of Terror

 ZergSmasher wrote:
So, after playing three tournament games and one casual game with Berzerkers, I'm actually feeling a little underwhelmed with how they do. In all four of the games they really didn't ever get to charge anything interesting thanks to intervening chaff units (cultists, conscripts, etc.) and their Rhinos more often than not just got popped before they could get close enough, meaning the Zerkers just got shot off the table. In the tournament I was running three units, in the casual game I only ran two, and I actually did get a charge in against some Genestealers, but after one round of combat my opponent just spent 2 CP to interrupt and scrag them. In one of the tournament games, I attempted a last-ditch Hail Mary effort to take out Roboute Guilliman, and same story (interrupted combat and destroyed them). I'm starting to think maybe they aren't as powerful as I've been led to believe. Two rounds of attacks don't mean jack if your opponent just gets to interrupt combat and wipe them out.


Delivery is an issue, as it always has been. Part of the reason Berzerkers get multiple fight phases is to offset the losses they take getting to the front lines.

What size were the units of Berzerkers? What other units were part of your army, taking some of the heat off the Berzerkers themselves? Did you advance the Rhinos to maximize distance towards your opponent? Did you have an IC with the Berzerkers to get some rerolls on the first activation? (While this isn't fluffy) did you Warptime them to get into combat faster?

You're right, a good opponent will always shield their juicy units with lots of chaff. I generally look at Berzerkers as a way of clearing the lower value units quickly and MAYBE taking out an IC / bigger threat. I also always take them with an IC who allows them to reroll failed hits / wounds. It's important to kill off a bunch of your opponent's units with the first fight activation exactly for the reason you mention, interruption can diminish the impact of their assaults substantially.




   
Made in us
Tzeentch Veteran Marine with Psychic Potential





I can second that berzerkers are overrated. People keep looking at their sheer amounts of dice and using them in optimal conditions. If that's possible in your meta, your opponents are weak. They're useful but they are hit or miss, all or nothing, and can quite easily fail to do anything of use. They're still a threat on the table that must be dealt with. Putting them in vehicles for delivery buys you time to eat away the chaff.

Noise Marines remain far superior in my book, especially Alpha Legion ones.

It's called a thick skin. The Jersey born have it innately. 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Anyone heard of the terminator heavy list with combi-bolters that can beat conscript armies? Anyways, what's the best configuration for noise marines? I'm running 10 for the first time in a rhino Thursday unless told otherwise. Thanks.
   
Made in us
Tzeentch Veteran Marine with Psychic Potential





BillyN831 wrote:
Anyone heard of the terminator heavy list with combi-bolters that can beat conscript armies? Anyways, what's the best configuration for noise marines? I'm running 10 for the first time in a rhino Thursday unless told otherwise. Thanks.


It's probably drop-in, blast, and charge with reroll auras from Chapter Masters. I've gone up against such lists and it's brutal the amount of durability and firepower they can have. Were I not Alpha Legion, I'd have been crushed entirely but I just kept running away with Noise Marines and gunning them down. Missiles hurt, axes hurt, power fists hurt, super flamers hurt, everything hurts. You can have some of them on the field firing long range weapons and then drop in the other half of your army wherever it needs to obliterate.

It's called a thick skin. The Jersey born have it innately. 
   
Made in gb
Huge Hierodule






Nottingham (yay!)

Berzerkers are utterly terrifying, and your opponent will do their best to take them out before they can charge. A single squad in a Rhino won't cut it, not unless you're in a particularly dense Cities of Death board. Or fighting at night. If you're trying an assault army, you need to heavily commit - sending a single rhino to run at enemy lines is not going to happen. It'll function as a mobile DS counter attacker unit, but not as a rushdown. Take like three of them. One gets blown up when you lose first turn, the other gets blown up after popping smoke and it's battered passengers beat up some Scouts, the other just about makes it.

This is also why I think Warptimed Warp Talons have their use - the 'eat Overwatch by charging with a transport' trick assumes a transport will survive the journey to the enemy lines intact enough to make that charge. WTWTs can eliminate Overwatch without risk whilst zerks do the actual killing,

   
Made in us
Tunneling Trygon





NJ

 Arkaine wrote:
I can second that berzerkers are overrated. People keep looking at their sheer amounts of dice and using them in optimal conditions. If that's possible in your meta, your opponents are weak. They're useful but they are hit or miss, all or nothing, and can quite easily fail to do anything of use. They're still a threat on the table that must be dealt with. Putting them in vehicles for delivery buys you time to eat away the chaff.

Noise Marines remain far superior in my book, especially Alpha Legion ones.


Footslogging berserkers are suboptimal. Throw them in a rhino and they are rightfully terrifying again.

Noise marines are awesome, but why not have both? The most recent iteration of my competitive list has 3 rhinos. What's in them? Two squads of zerkers and 1 squad of noise marines
   
Made in us
Tzeentch Veteran Marine with Psychic Potential





 luke1705 wrote:
Footslogging berserkers are suboptimal. Throw them in a rhino and they are rightfully terrifying again.

I never see footslogging berzerkers. They are always in a rhino, drop pod, or spartan assault tank. They are still suboptimal to people's expectations. Noise Marines far exceed expectations every time.

It's called a thick skin. The Jersey born have it innately. 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Arkaine wrote:
 luke1705 wrote:
Footslogging berserkers are suboptimal. Throw them in a rhino and they are rightfully terrifying again.

I never see footslogging berzerkers. They are always in a rhino, drop pod, or spartan assault tank. They are still suboptimal to people's expectations. Noise Marines far exceed expectations every time.

An Assault 3 Bolter is not better than actually killing the Conscripts in a round. Noise Marines are safer, but they're not better.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





I agree with Slayer, and say that as someone loving masses of Noise Marines.

I think Berserkers are just a higher execution unit. I think a good player can deliver them, and turn them into a devastatingly powerful assault that will make them easily worth their points. Noise Marines have a lower ceiling on what they can do, but what they do they do so much more "easily" than Berserkers.


11527pts Total (7400pts painted)

4980pts Total (4980pts painted)

3730 Total (210pts painted) 
   
Made in us
Tzeentch Veteran Marine with Psychic Potential





NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
I agree with Slayer, and say that as someone loving masses of Noise Marines.

I think Berserkers are just a higher execution unit. I think a good player can deliver them, and turn them into a devastatingly powerful assault that will make them easily worth their points. Noise Marines have a lower ceiling on what they can do, but what they do they do so much more "easily" than Berserkers.


A higher execution unit indeed. After they do what they wanted to turn 1, they are highly executed.

Noise Marines have never died in any of the games I've fielded them despite being the target of many volleys. It is far easier to keep them alive than it is the Berzerkers and they buy their value quickly. If you're throwing Berzerkers at conscripts, I feel like they are being underutilized. Perfect conscript killers no doubt but pricey and suicidal to be used just for that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Berzerkers, to be highly effective, require suiciding alongside them the vehicle transporting them, the Dark Apostle, the Exalted Champion, and possibly a sorcerer to get them assuredly into combat.

Noise Marines, to be highly effective, require a Slaanesh Sorcerer casting Delightful Agonies and Prescience safely surrounded by Noise Marines who can not only be in cover for +1 armor, can not only be outside the rapid fire range of most guns, but can also sport that Alpha Legion legion trait to its fullest rather than venturing up close where it's ineffective. Heck, you can even infiltrate them wherever you need them to be for turn 1 shooting. A Chaos Lord rerolling 1s is just added gravy and having assault weapons means they can retreat and fire if threatened.

On death Noise Marines are STILL useful with revenge kills while Zerkers die in a fire even if the succeeded their charge last turn due to Fall Back. Definitely incomparable units.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/19 15:38:33


It's called a thick skin. The Jersey born have it innately. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





People don't always seem to understand that there is tactical value in things beyond the raw math-hammer. If your army has multiple, meaningful threat vectors, and your opponent spends their turn killing off Berserkers (who earned back their points in a likely alpha-strike), then they are tactically misplaying, or ignoring other targets.

If they ignore the Berserkers, they face another dilemma in them later.

I love Noise Marines, and I get it... you're trying super hard to paint them as objectively better... but they're not, they're just wildly different.

11527pts Total (7400pts painted)

4980pts Total (4980pts painted)

3730 Total (210pts painted) 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Connecticut

Both units are good. They're not really immediately comparable.

Use both, win.

Blood Angels, Custodes, Tzeentch, Alpha Legion, Astra Militarum, Deathwatch, Thousand Sons, Imperial Knights, Tau, Genestealer Cult.

I have a problem.

Being contrary for the sake of being contrary doesn't make you unique, it makes you annoying.

 Purifier wrote:
Using your rules isn't being a dick.
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Khorne berserkers are not distraction carnifexes, but glass cannons. I wonder if running two landraiders is better than two rhinos. I run three predators and they sometimes become priority targets over my khorne berserkers because of the +1 strength\ +1 damage stratagem, which wreck vehicles

and monsters. Anyways, what's the best load out for noise marines? I'm playing them for the first time this Thursday. Thanks.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Arkaine wrote:
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
I agree with Slayer, and say that as someone loving masses of Noise Marines.

I think Berserkers are just a higher execution unit. I think a good player can deliver them, and turn them into a devastatingly powerful assault that will make them easily worth their points. Noise Marines have a lower ceiling on what they can do, but what they do they do so much more "easily" than Berserkers.


A higher execution unit indeed. After they do what they wanted to turn 1, they are highly executed.

Noise Marines have never died in any of the games I've fielded them despite being the target of many volleys. It is far easier to keep them alive than it is the Berzerkers and they buy their value quickly. If you're throwing Berzerkers at conscripts, I feel like they are being underutilized. Perfect conscript killers no doubt but pricey and suicidal to be used just for that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Berzerkers, to be highly effective, require suiciding alongside them the vehicle transporting them, the Dark Apostle, the Exalted Champion, and possibly a sorcerer to get them assuredly into combat.

Noise Marines, to be highly effective, require a Slaanesh Sorcerer casting Delightful Agonies and Prescience safely surrounded by Noise Marines who can not only be in cover for +1 armor, can not only be outside the rapid fire range of most guns, but can also sport that Alpha Legion legion trait to its fullest rather than venturing up close where it's ineffective. Heck, you can even infiltrate them wherever you need them to be for turn 1 shooting. A Chaos Lord rerolling 1s is just added gravy and having assault weapons means they can retreat and fire if threatened.

On death Noise Marines are STILL useful with revenge kills while Zerkers die in a fire even if the succeeded their charge last turn due to Fall Back. Definitely incomparable units.

1. Berserker Marines don't NEED all those characters, if any at all. Dark Apostle at most. Otherwise, why don't your Noise Marines need the Exalted Champion too? Why am I casting Precience on Noise Marines instead of Obliterators? See how this works? They have enough weight of attacks that you don't NEED rerolls. In this line of thought, they don't need the babysitting. It's just a nice bonus
2. Berserker Marines can be Alpha Legion too? Infiltrate them or enjoy the fact that the squads they didn't wipe out are suffering a -1 to hit them unless they're super close? And they can't benefit from cover before charging in?
3. I'll give you the death bonus, but Berserker Marines already attack twice so meh.

Sorry, but Berserker Marines actually fulfill a niche. Noise Marines really don't. Not to say they're bad, but they're not as good. They'll be better objective campers but they're floppers offensively.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Tunneling Trygon





NJ

Girls girls you're both pretty.

Both units need a rhino (sorry landraider. I don't need one of you instead of 3 rhinos)

Both units kill hordes/force a ton of saves. Zerkers do so in close combat, whereas noise marines do it in shooting.

They actually complement each other very well because as has been pointed out, if you just use zerkers, what are you killing? Brims? Conscripts? Cultists? Congrats. They fall back and then your zerkers haven't made their points back, but are dead.

That's where the noise marines come in. On turn 1, the noise marines kill the hordes at range. By turn 2, they're dead (the noise marines) so you're free to drop in and double fire the oblits. Turn 2 or 3, you've cleared out enough chaff to be able to charge real things with the zerkers, so they do so.

People who are seeing their zerkers never get to combat at all are just people whose lists are only partly good. If your opponent has to kill many units of anything, he won't be able to do it all in one turn. Grab an oblit squad, some deep striking warp talons, and a warp timed maulerfiend in addition to those berserkers in a rhino and the noise marines in a rhino. Turn 1, those are all VERY REAL threats. If I'm the opponent, what do I do? Their are good answers but not great ones. And if my opponent spends an entire turn killing a rhino and gunning down the zerkers (who weren't even going to charge on turn 2 most likely) then the rest of my army will punish them.
   
Made in us
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain






A Protoss colony world

 techsoldaten wrote:
 ZergSmasher wrote:
So, after playing three tournament games and one casual game with Berzerkers, I'm actually feeling a little underwhelmed with how they do. In all four of the games they really didn't ever get to charge anything interesting thanks to intervening chaff units (cultists, conscripts, etc.) and their Rhinos more often than not just got popped before they could get close enough, meaning the Zerkers just got shot off the table. In the tournament I was running three units, in the casual game I only ran two, and I actually did get a charge in against some Genestealers, but after one round of combat my opponent just spent 2 CP to interrupt and scrag them. In one of the tournament games, I attempted a last-ditch Hail Mary effort to take out Roboute Guilliman, and same story (interrupted combat and destroyed them). I'm starting to think maybe they aren't as powerful as I've been led to believe. Two rounds of attacks don't mean jack if your opponent just gets to interrupt combat and wipe them out.


Delivery is an issue, as it always has been. Part of the reason Berzerkers get multiple fight phases is to offset the losses they take getting to the front lines.

What size were the units of Berzerkers? What other units were part of your army, taking some of the heat off the Berzerkers themselves? Did you advance the Rhinos to maximize distance towards your opponent? Did you have an IC with the Berzerkers to get some rerolls on the first activation? (While this isn't fluffy) did you Warptime them to get into combat faster?

You're right, a good opponent will always shield their juicy units with lots of chaff. I generally look at Berzerkers as a way of clearing the lower value units quickly and MAYBE taking out an IC / bigger threat. I also always take them with an IC who allows them to reroll failed hits / wounds. It's important to kill off a bunch of your opponent's units with the first fight activation exactly for the reason you mention, interruption can diminish the impact of their assaults substantially.

My list in the tournament consisted of a Battalion Detachment of World Eaters, with a Dark Apostle, Exalted Champion, and 3 units of Berzerkers in Rhinos (1 10-man, the other two 9-man to leave room for the characters), alongside an Alpha Legion Battalion with a bunch of Cultists, Slaanesh melta-bikers, a Slaanesh DP with the Elixir, a couple of bike Sorcerers, and two Melta/Fist Helbrutes (loadout due to being the DV model). I did advance and pop smoke the first turn with the Rhinos each game, but admittedly I deployed a little sheepishly because I was afraid if I didn't get first turn I'd just lose the Rhinos and be footslogging up the board, getting shot to pieces along the way. One of my Sorcerers did have Warptime and I did use it, but again perhaps not optimally. My first opponent was Ultramarines with Guilliman, a couple of Hellblaster squads, a pair of Stormravens, a Culexus Assassin, and two Las Predators. I managed to pop both Preds in the first turn between my Helbrutes and the Bikers using Endless Cacophony, but the Stormravens just chewed my stuff up, including my DP when I left him wide open (I've gotta learn to defend against flyers better). The other two games were even worse, with a Chaos soup list (8 Malefic Lords, 2 Iron Warriors Sorcerers, 3 squads of Nurglings, and 3 30-man Cultist squads, plus 900-plus points of Summoning used for Slaanesh Heralds) that just ate me alive with Smites, and a gunline Guard list with a couple of big blobs of Conscripts, several artillery batteries (2 Manticore ones and 3 Basilisk ones, the ones that are just the gun in both cases, not the vehicles), Yarrick, and a bunch of dropping Elysians with plasma, plus 2 Vultures. This is the kind of meta I'm in, where everyone makes like it's Adepticon every friggin' week. The only thing I can think of to do is "gitgud", but it's harder than it looks.

Thinking back I can see some areas in which I should have just flat played better, as I made some poor tactical choices. Next time I'll bring some Noise Marines along (assuming my aftermarket sonic weapons arrive in a timely manner) and probably only 2 Berzerker squads, and hopefully I can figure out what else would work good to support them.

My armies (re-counted and updated on 11/1/23, including modeled wargear options):
Dark Angels: ~15000 Astra Militarum: ~1200 | Adeptus Custodes: ~1900 | Imperial Knights: ~2000 | Sisters of Battle: ~3500 | Leagues of Votann: ~1200 | Tyranids: ~2600 | Stormcast Eternals: ~5000
Check out my P&M Blogs: ZergSmasher's P&M Blog | Imperial Knights blog | Board Games blog | Total models painted in 2023: 40 | Total models painted in 2024: 7 | Current main painting project: Dark Angels
 Mr_Rose wrote:
Who doesn’t love crazy mutant squawk-puppies? Eh? Nobody, that’s who.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Connecticut

You need to be able to safely and reliably get them where you need them. Rhinos will do, I guess, but a Kharybdis will all but guaranteed the delivery of your angry lil boys.

I run a Dark Apostle, Exalted Champion and 2x 9 Squads w/ Icons inside a Kharybdis. The daddy pod charges things first, Zerkers go in after.

Yes, infiltrating them as Alpha Legion can work, but you need to ensure you are very low on drops so that they are given the best chance of going first.

Blood Angels, Custodes, Tzeentch, Alpha Legion, Astra Militarum, Deathwatch, Thousand Sons, Imperial Knights, Tau, Genestealer Cult.

I have a problem.

Being contrary for the sake of being contrary doesn't make you unique, it makes you annoying.

 Purifier wrote:
Using your rules isn't being a dick.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





I think one thing we forget, as well... and this is a general tactica thing, is that even at tournaments, not every player is a tactical-genius, top ranked player. We all build for those, but sometimes i'll go to a medium sized tournament (say... 30 players for argument sake), and will end up in a final round against a very nice, very cool opponent, who will have made it there with their Black Templars... puts whatever they can in Landraiders, and says "gak it" and just enjoys playing.

If you happen to play someone who didn't bring the now expected 50 Conscripts/Brimstones/Cultists, etc... suddenly a VotLW on Berserkers is taking out twice their points, right out of the gates.

I know this could be said for many, many units... but i'm mostly just making the point that sometimes when enjoying these Tactica threads, we forget that the top 1% of players will require the most optimized EVERYTHING to have a fair fighting chance against, but most of the other 99% of gamers will have fits against a ton of what we can bring.

11527pts Total (7400pts painted)

4980pts Total (4980pts painted)

3730 Total (210pts painted) 
   
Made in gb
Huge Hierodule






Nottingham (yay!)

For every Rhino of Berzerkers, you want two Fiends. They can hide behind the Rhinos. When the zerks charge, you stage-manage it so that some of the target survives - remember, you don't HAVE to move your full charge and pile-in distance. If there's one or a dozen Conscripts left alive at the end of your turn, and you've got one berzerker and one fiend touching them, the entire enemy army just has to sit back and watch you stamp the survivors to death in their turn, and then get an extra 3" pile in before the dam breaks in your following turn.

   
Made in us
Tunneling Trygon





NJ

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
I think one thing we forget, as well... and this is a general tactica thing, is that even at tournaments, not every player is a tactical-genius, top ranked player. We all build for those, but sometimes i'll go to a medium sized tournament (say... 30 players for argument sake), and will end up in a final round against a very nice, very cool opponent, who will have made it there with their Black Templars... puts whatever they can in Landraiders, and says "gak it" and just enjoys playing.

If you happen to play someone who didn't bring the now expected 50 Conscripts/Brimstones/Cultists, etc... suddenly a VotLW on Berserkers is taking out twice their points, right out of the gates.

I know this could be said for many, many units... but i'm mostly just making the point that sometimes when enjoying these Tactica threads, we forget that the top 1% of players will require the most optimized EVERYTHING to have a fair fighting chance against, but most of the other 99% of gamers will have fits against a ton of what we can bring.


Absolutely the truth. It's always a tough call to say "when is my army at the level of competitive that I want it to be?" especially because there's usually no way on a tactics thread to have any idea if the target audience wants to go try and win a GT or just play casual games against their friends and not be at a disadvantage. I always target the former because those are the kinds of lists the people I play against bring, but everyone's mileage will indeed vary.

Just an anecdote - I played a far from optimized CSM list at a very competitive tournament literally the morning the new codex came out (so naturally, everyone was playing CSM for the most part haha). Played a Necron player who had what I would characterize as a pretty good list. Yes, he made a few tactical mistakes, but if I was on his side of the table, I quite honestly have no idea how I would have bested my list.

TLDR: the import of this thread will increase over time as more codexes come out and the power level discrepancies between armies decrease. Until then, we good


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 lindsay40k wrote:
For every Rhino of Berzerkers, you want two Fiends. They can hide behind the Rhinos. When the zerks charge, you stage-manage it so that some of the target survives - remember, you don't HAVE to move your full charge and pile-in distance. If there's one or a dozen Conscripts left alive at the end of your turn, and you've got one berzerker and one fiend touching them, the entire enemy army just has to sit back and watch you stamp the survivors to death in their turn, and then get an extra 3" pile in before the dam breaks in your following turn.


I like that idea a lot, although I swear I feel like I see so many units that can fly nowadays. Maybe it's just the Tau PTSD Personally, I just wish Skarbrand had a good delivery mechanism for the same effect

Maybe when the Daemons codex comes out

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/20 01:17:24


 
   
Made in us
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain






A Protoss colony world

Okay, really dumb question and I'm sorry if it's already been answered, but is Arkos considered to be Alpha Legion for purposes of the detachment recieving the benefits thereof? I'm thinking I might just give him a try if he works with AL. He has an ability that references THE FAITHLESS, but that could be like Necrosius referencing THE TAINTED, which has already been discussed mainly in the Death Guard thread. Also, is Arkos even worth taking in a competitive list?

My armies (re-counted and updated on 11/1/23, including modeled wargear options):
Dark Angels: ~15000 Astra Militarum: ~1200 | Adeptus Custodes: ~1900 | Imperial Knights: ~2000 | Sisters of Battle: ~3500 | Leagues of Votann: ~1200 | Tyranids: ~2600 | Stormcast Eternals: ~5000
Check out my P&M Blogs: ZergSmasher's P&M Blog | Imperial Knights blog | Board Games blog | Total models painted in 2023: 40 | Total models painted in 2024: 7 | Current main painting project: Dark Angels
 Mr_Rose wrote:
Who doesn’t love crazy mutant squawk-puppies? Eh? Nobody, that’s who.
 
   
Made in us
Tunneling Trygon





NJ

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Okay, really dumb question and I'm sorry if it's already been answered, but is Arkos considered to be Alpha Legion for purposes of the detachment recieving the benefits thereof? I'm thinking I might just give him a try if he works with AL. He has an ability that references THE FAITHLESS, but that could be like Necrosius referencing THE TAINTED, which has already been discussed mainly in the Death Guard thread. Also, is Arkos even worth taking in a competitive list?



He has the alpha legion keyword in his dataslate, so yes he counts. I do not believe that his FAITHLESS ability affects Alpha Legion, much like the tainted and death guard for necrosius. I don't believe there was an FAQ towards that end yet.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 ZergSmasher wrote:
Okay, really dumb question and I'm sorry if it's already been answered, but is Arkos considered to be Alpha Legion for purposes of the detachment recieving the benefits thereof? I'm thinking I might just give him a try if he works with AL. He has an ability that references THE FAITHLESS, but that could be like Necrosius referencing THE TAINTED, which has already been discussed mainly in the Death Guard thread. Also, is Arkos even worth taking in a competitive list?

Basically it works like how Successor Chapters work for the Loyalist Scum (see all the Badab characters basically) I imagine. He has the Alpha Legion trait, and so does the Faithless, but they aren't "Alpha Legion". So if Alpha Legion ever got a character, they wouldn't give bonuses to The Faithless, and Arkos doesn't give his bonuses to Alpha Legion. That's why he's been taken in CSM lists we saw at a few tournaments. After all, I can't imagine someone paying for him to lose the Legion bonus just for a Command Point, as that makes super little sense.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

So... my meta is quite competitive, so I'll need to up my game a bit.

I have two list for your review...

List #1:
Spoiler:
## Magtarion [126 PL, 1999pts] ##

### Supreme Command Detachment +1CP ###
* **Mortarion **

* **Malefic Lord **

* **Malefic Lord **

* **Malefic Lord **

### Supreme Command Detachment +1CP ###
* **Magnus the Red **

* **Malefic Lord **

* **Malefic Lord **

* **Malefic Lord **

### Battalion Detachment +3CP ###
* **Chaos Fire Raptor Assault Gunship **
-hellstrike missles, quad-bolters, Mark of Nurgle

* **Herald of Tzeentch **

* **The Changeling **

* **18x Pair of Brimstone Horrors, 1x Blue Horrors **

* **Nurglings 3x **

* **Nurglings 3x **

* **Nurglings 3x **

* **Giant Chaos Spawn <nurgle>**

* **Giant Chaos Spawn <nurgle>**


List #2:
Spoiler:
## MagOblit [121 PL, 1998pts] ##

### Supreme Command Detachment +1CP ###
* **Magnus the Red **

* **Malefic Lord **

* **Malefic Lord **

* **Malefic Lord **

* **Malefic Lord **


### Battalion Detachment +3CP ###
* **Herald of Tzeentch **

* **The Changeling **

* **12x Pair of Brimstone Horrors, 1x Blue Horrors **

* **Nurglings 3x **

* **Nurglings 3x **

* **Giant Chaos Spawn <nurgle>**

* **Giant Chaos Spawn <nurgle>**

#### Spearhead Detachment +1CP ####
#### No Force Org Slot ####
* **Legion**

Alpha Legion

* **Chaos Lord in Terminator Armour :Mark of Slaanesh, The Murder Sword **

* **Chaos Fire Raptor Assault Gunship **
-hellstrike missles, quad-bolters

* **Hellforged Rapier Battery :Laser destroyer**

* **Obliterators 3x :Mark of Tzeentch **

* **Obliterators 3x :Mark of Slaanesh **

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/20 02:32:14


Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




UK

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 ZergSmasher wrote:
Okay, really dumb question and I'm sorry if it's already been answered, but is Arkos considered to be Alpha Legion for purposes of the detachment recieving the benefits thereof? I'm thinking I might just give him a try if he works with AL. He has an ability that references THE FAITHLESS, but that could be like Necrosius referencing THE TAINTED, which has already been discussed mainly in the Death Guard thread. Also, is Arkos even worth taking in a competitive list?

Basically it works like how Successor Chapters work for the Loyalist Scum (see all the Badab characters basically) I imagine. He has the Alpha Legion trait, and so does the Faithless, but they aren't "Alpha Legion". So if Alpha Legion ever got a character, they wouldn't give bonuses to The Faithless, and Arkos doesn't give his bonuses to Alpha Legion. That's why he's been taken in CSM lists we saw at a few tournaments. After all, I can't imagine someone paying for him to lose the Legion bonus just for a Command Point, as that makes super little sense.



Arkos confused me when I first read the IA book... Mainly because I thought he was like Cypher, where his buff only applies to the "Fallen", which were then a unit listed below cypher in the book.

And Forgeworld doesn't seem to have listed any units as "Faithless", and I haven't noticed any rules anywhere to field a faithless army. So Arkos's special +1 rule only applies to... himself?

I did think at first that maybe it's just a matter of choosing your legion as "Faithless", but I know that's not actually the case because its the same as choosing regiments etc. That would give you "<LEGION:FAITHLESS> and not <THE FAITHLESS> basically, and not the right keyword.

Just seemed weird to me. I may be missing an entire set of rules somewhere though that gives units the legion keyword of faithless, but RAW he only buffs himself as far as I can see. And I don't see any fixes in the current FAQ...
   
Made in es
Power-Hungry Cultist of Tzeentch




Spain

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
I think one thing we forget, as well... and this is a general tactica thing, is that even at tournaments, not every player is a tactical-genius, top ranked player. We all build for those, but sometimes i'll go to a medium sized tournament (say... 30 players for argument sake), and will end up in a final round against a very nice, very cool opponent, who will have made it there with their Black Templars... puts whatever they can in Landraiders, and says "gak it" and just enjoys playing.

If you happen to play someone who didn't bring the now expected 50 Conscripts/Brimstones/Cultists, etc... suddenly a VotLW on Berserkers is taking out twice their points, right out of the gates.

I know this could be said for many, many units... but i'm mostly just making the point that sometimes when enjoying these Tactica threads, we forget that the top 1% of players will require the most optimized EVERYTHING to have a fair fighting chance against, but most of the other 99% of gamers will have fits against a ton of what we can bring.


You are so right about this. I trully love reading the advice of experts about super optimized lists although I myself don't play too often. I don't know, I just find these conversations really cool.

The other day I was talking with my regular opponent about fielding a unit of 30 cultists to try the stratagem to infiltrate them and get them back on full size when needed. He answered that he wouldn't play against a list like that. Or against IG with 120 conscripts. Or against 100 brimstones and Magnus. That made me think. I don't really play competitive, I play normal games with friends and my local meta is not that expert. I like reading about competitive stuff but what I enjoy the most is converting units and spending a lot of time painting them.

Maybe some day I finish converting and painting my army and can start thinking about going to a tournament. Meanwhile, I will keep enjoying reading you guys about super competitive lists
   
Made in us
Tunneling Trygon





NJ

 whembly wrote:
So... my meta is quite competitive, so I'll need to up my game a bit.

I have two list for your review...

List #1:
Spoiler:
## Magtarion [126 PL, 1999pts] ##

### Supreme Command Detachment +1CP ###
* **Mortarion **

* **Malefic Lord **

* **Malefic Lord **

* **Malefic Lord **

### Supreme Command Detachment +1CP ###
* **Magnus the Red **

* **Malefic Lord **

* **Malefic Lord **

* **Malefic Lord **

### Battalion Detachment +3CP ###
* **Chaos Fire Raptor Assault Gunship **
-hellstrike missles, quad-bolters, Mark of Nurgle

* **Herald of Tzeentch **

* **The Changeling **

* **18x Pair of Brimstone Horrors, 1x Blue Horrors **

* **Nurglings 3x **

* **Nurglings 3x **

* **Nurglings 3x **

* **Giant Chaos Spawn <nurgle>**

* **Giant Chaos Spawn <nurgle>**


List #2:
Spoiler:
## MagOblit [121 PL, 1998pts] ##

### Supreme Command Detachment +1CP ###
* **Magnus the Red **

* **Malefic Lord **

* **Malefic Lord **

* **Malefic Lord **

* **Malefic Lord **


### Battalion Detachment +3CP ###
* **Herald of Tzeentch **

* **The Changeling **

* **12x Pair of Brimstone Horrors, 1x Blue Horrors **

* **Nurglings 3x **

* **Nurglings 3x **

* **Giant Chaos Spawn <nurgle>**

* **Giant Chaos Spawn <nurgle>**

#### Spearhead Detachment +1CP ####
#### No Force Org Slot ####
* **Legion**

Alpha Legion

* **Chaos Lord in Terminator Armour :Mark of Slaanesh, The Murder Sword **

* **Chaos Fire Raptor Assault Gunship **
-hellstrike missles, quad-bolters

* **Hellforged Rapier Battery :Laser destroyer**

* **Obliterators 3x :Mark of Tzeentch **

* **Obliterators 3x :Mark of Slaanesh **


Your first list is better, but lacks any kind of shooting threat outside of the fire raptor. Which is of course very good. Make the fire raptor nurgle and give it -2 to hit if you need that.

Also I'd change the daemons detachment to be a pure CSM Detachment so that you can get access to the stratagems and include baller units like cultists, noise marines, zerkers, oblits.

Barring that wholesale change, I'd still clear points to include a squad of zerkers in a rhino as the elites slot in one of your command Detachments. Would probably drop the spawn for this
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




UK

What are people's opinions on disks of tzeentch? Herald on disk, or CSM lord or sorcerer on disk?

I get the impression that the disk is a silly option compared to the (cheaper) jetpack for csm, and the chariot for the herald?

I'm tempted to model my units on disks anyway, as they look pretty cool, and have them counts as jetpacks, but I thought I'd get some feedback first!
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Connecticut

Niiru wrote:
What are people's opinions on disks of tzeentch? Herald on disk, or CSM lord or sorcerer on disk?

I get the impression that the disk is a silly option compared to the (cheaper) jetpack for csm, and the chariot for the herald?

I'm tempted to model my units on disks anyway, as they look pretty cool, and have them counts as jetpacks, but I thought I'd get some feedback first!


Gives them the Daemon Subtype, which means it stacks w/ Changeling etc. Good for that level of cohesion if you wanted, but typically a jetpack as you said is just simpler and better, due to deep strike.

Blood Angels, Custodes, Tzeentch, Alpha Legion, Astra Militarum, Deathwatch, Thousand Sons, Imperial Knights, Tau, Genestealer Cult.

I have a problem.

Being contrary for the sake of being contrary doesn't make you unique, it makes you annoying.

 Purifier wrote:
Using your rules isn't being a dick.
 
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard





Disk is great if you're going for a daemon synergy army, otherwise skip it.
   
 
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