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Imagine this... The first round of a RTT or even small GT and sitting across from you is an Ultramarines-painted army across the table from you complete with iconography on many of the models. You point to this unit of small, mini-dreadnought looking models and ask what they are. Your opponent replies "Thunderwolf cavalry" He's using the SW codex to run the army! All the models are WYSIWYG with PFs, MGs, etc represented and there is the one unit of converted counts-as TWC.

What effect (if any) would this have on any sportsmanship/comp/painting scores in your mind as his opponent or a judge of the event? Would this be any different if his army was painted in a less iconic chapter or a DIY color scheme?

Assuming they were well done, I'd probably give him positive points for it.

I would have to see the mini-dred conversions to decide if they were good 'counts-as' or lazy 'proxies'... I think it is pretty clear most marine players have no loyalty and I assume every marine I see is the 'everymarine' chapter regardless of paint scheme.

If the models that have unique codex-specific rules are correctly converted and WYSIWYG then all is fine. If you plop down generic attack bikes and want to call them thunderwolves then yes, I will be disappointed in the appearance.

Depends on the conversion. If someone is playing Ultramarine painted dudes under space wolves rules, I'd expect him to tell me before the game starts though.

Okay, let's ignore the TWC for the moment, as it depends on conversions. For something a little more objective, what if they were using Sang Guard/Baal Preds just painted blue and gold and using BA rules for their army?

How dare he use a different codex when he obviously started his marines as ultramarines!

I would ask the TO to boot him from the event.




(for the record this is a joke, however last time this topic came up, there were quite a few people who said they wouldn't play the guy)

Gornall wrote:Okay, let's ignore the TWC for the moment, as it depends on conversions. For something a little more objective, what if they were using Sang Guard/Baal Preds just painted blue and gold and using BA rules for their army?

Probably no penalty.

Probably no penalty as well, but I'd expect him to tell me beforehand that they were blood angels, without me having to ask.
Portability is probably one of the main reasons lots of people collect space marines. I can't really blame them for it, GW seems to set up the game to facilitate it.

If he told me ahead of time that he was playing SW, no prob. If not, his softscores would be hurting, because I hate it when that happend.

If he was smart enough to magnetize his vehicles and the weapon loadout was WYSIWYG with the appropriate weapons for the specialized unit he was trying to use, then fine.

No plopping down a land raider with lascannons and calling it a crusader.

Army specific units should be modeled as such. If someone had an Ultra Marines army and was playing them as the new Blood angels... I would expect Death company and Sanguinary guard to be modeled WYSYWIG and unique and not simply basic assault marines. BA have access to assault marines so they need to be clearly distinguished and different and have appropriate wargear. (appears like sanguary guard have all power weapons which assault marines would not)

If someone wants to be taken seriously as an Everymarine player, at least he could do is try to model the 1-2 codex specific units with unique models that match his army opposed to forcing proxies on people. That effort will usually show opponents that you are taking it seriously and keep your softscores intact.

If it's only a matter of paint scheme, I don't care, as long as he lets me know what I'm getting into ahead of time.

I don't care what colour the Spase Mariens are painted.

I am just worried that there are too many players coming to events with armies which aren't Spaze Mareins at all.

I've heard in some tournaments as many as 30% of the players do not have a Spaec Marinees army.

It is pretty shocking. GW should do something about it.

As KK said. As long as the SSmurf player shows a written army list with everything and explains every non standard unit I don´t care if he is playing blue marines with green marines rules or even spiky marines with druggie marine rules.
But then I don´t believe in softscores as usually they are unbalanced punishing some armies over others.

M.

Personally, I'd like three rules:

1) Make sure it is clear ahead of time what codex they are using and what is represented by what model.

2) Model substitutions should at least make sense. Don't slap a Hive Tyrant down and try to get by with it representing a Dread.

3) Wargear/Options need to be properly represented. Don't try and call a heavy bolter a lascannon. Magnetizing isn't that hard to do, and bits are pretty easy to get a hold of if you want to run multiple setups on a model.


Now that's for tournaments. For the average friendly game, use soda cans for dreads for all I care as long as you tell me what they are.

If he painted as Ultramarines and played as Space Wolves, I'd probablt dock him THEME points, but nothing else.

If he played with his own made up chapter using count-as thunderwolf cavalry. If say, the chapter was techno-barbarian themed and the mini dreadnoughts were part of the overall 'frezied' technological bloke theme of the army, I'd award him extra THEME points.

It wouldn't affect comp or any of the other non-generalship scores ('soft' scores is a pretty insulting was of putting it... )


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If he painted as Ultramarines and played as Space Wolves, I'd probablt dock him THEME points, but nothing else.

If he played with his own made up chapter using count-as thunderwolf cavalry. If say, the chapter was techno-barbarian themed and the mini dreadnoughts were part of the overall 'frezied' technological bloke theme of the army, I'd award him extra THEME points.

It wouldn't affect comp or any of the other non-generalship scores ('soft' scores is a pretty insulting was of putting it... )

No sportsmanship penalties at all. It's a paint job and he's not trying to misrepresent anything.

ArbitorIan wrote:If he painted as Ultramarines and played as Space Wolves, I'd probablt dock him THEME points, but nothing else.

That seems reasonable. What about composition points, though?

Composition is about encouraging balanced lists, so your composition score SHOULD just
be based on your army selections and not your presentation.

Everytime I have played competitively I have exchanged lists and/or presented what my units are (and any wonky rules they have) before the match. It makes situations like this a non-issue.

malfred wrote:Composition is about encouraging balanced lists, so your composition score SHOULD just
be based on your army selections and not your presentation.

Agreed. Another question... how much of an impact (concious or subconsious) do you think it could have on someone judging the painting score?

Gornall wrote:

malfred wrote:Composition is about encouraging balanced lists, so your composition score SHOULD just
be based on your army selections and not your presentation.

Agreed. Another question... how much of an impact (concious or subconsious) do you think it could have on someone judging the painting score?

Almost all judges I have seen use a checklist which is pretty arbitrary for painting scores. Here is a generic one I have seen used.

Painting (worth up to 15 points)
*Army is fully painted, but only to the three-color standard of basecoating.
10 points
*Army is beyond fully painted, additional steps beyond the three-color standard.
5 points

Check All That Apply to Army (worth up to 11 points)
*Painting is Uniform: Not a mix of schemes, styles, and looks.
1 point
*Clean Basecoat Colors: Base colors are painted neatly.
1 point
*Details: Details are painted such as eyes, buckles, and jewelry.
1 point
*Clean Details: Details are painted well (clean, have highlights).
1 point
*Hand-Painted Details: Details (that are well executed) have been added such as unit markings, banner artwork, blood marks, dirt on cloaks, etc.
1 point
*Artistic: Banners, markings, and details are hand painted to an incredible degree!
1 point
*Discernable Highlights/Shading: Dry brushing, lining, shading, inking, etc. (not required to be clean).
1 point
Clean Highlights: Lines are neat, Dry brushing is appropriate; inking is controlled and not sloppy.
1 point
*Layers of Highlights: More than one layer of highlight, which may include shading, highlights over inking, blending, etc.
1 point
*Beyond Basics: Highlights have been blended, shaded, or layered well - beyond the basic highlighting techniques of drybrusing and inking.
1 point
*Masterful Blending: Highlights have been masterfully blended, shaded, or layered.
1 point

Basing (worth up to 3 points)
*Based/Detailed: Bases have basing materials (flock/sand/tiles) or details painted on them.
1 point
*Extra Basing: The bases have multiple basing materials (rocks/grass), extra details painted on them (cracks in tiles), or if extra basing is inappropriate, basing is done very well (eg. rolling desert dunes).
1 point
*Highlights: Bases have highlighting (shading/drybrushing).
1 point

Conversions (Worth up to 3 points)
*Minimal: The army has some elementary conversions (head and weapon swaps, arm rotations) or a couple interesting swaps.
1 point
*Minor: Units have multi-kit conversions including head and weapon swaps. This is for more than a few models such as a unit.
1 points
*Major: The army has some difficult conversions that use things such as putty, plastic card, drilling, sawing, minor sculpts, etc. This could also apply to the entire army having very well done multi-kit conversions (see above)
1 points

Other (worth up to 18 points)
*Display Base: Basic based & highlighted or detailed display base.
1 point
*Something Special: There is something above and beyond about a model's painting, the display base, a conversion, or the basing.
1 point
*Picked as top 10 army
4 point
*Picked as top three army
6 point
*judges discretion may add 1-6 points
1-6 points

50 Total points

32 of the points are pretty set in stone and wouldn't be impacted by Everymarine issues. If a Judge does look down on Ultramarine TWC then at worst he can do is his 6 points judges discretion.

Most don't even have judges discression

Well I've been recently told that my DIY chapter (DA Vet models painted w/blue robes and white armor) would suffer a 3 point penalty from the judges if I play them as any codex but codex space marines (i.e. if I play them as Space Wolves) which I think is a little harsh. But I can make that up pretty easy in battle points (I Hope )

3 point penalty out of what? 3 out of 10? 3 out of 50?

On a 50 pt appearance scale with 6 pts judges discretion in the example, judges who have a hard-on against everymarines have every right to do whatever they wish with thier 6 points. If it was simply a judge pulling a random 1-10 out of his ass with no defined metrics then that is a different thing and you are at the whims of the judges...

Also some allow opponents to judge you so if someone dislikes everymarines then they have every right to mark you down as well. That is what subjective appearance scores end up with opposed to more structured objective like '1pt if your model has a beltbuckle'

3 out of possible 40. It's the judges discretion points. I don't like it but at least it's only 3 points and they were up front about it

Hulksmash wrote:Well I've been recently told that my DIY chapter (DA Vet models painted w/blue robes and white armor) would suffer a 3 point penalty from the judges if I play them as any codex but codex space marines (i.e. if I play them as Space Wolves) which I think is a little harsh. But I can make that up pretty easy in battle points (I Hope )

LOL... so basically you're saying that if I ran a DIY chapter (I was thinking of leaning heavily on BT/DA bits) I'd still have the same problems? Yeah... I'll just eat the theme points, hope I don't get tanked on sportsmanship and save myself a bundle of time/money to remake a bunch of "everymarines".

I'm rather curious, did he explain the restriction to only C:SM? Why not C: DA?

Edit: Supposed to be Codex: Dark Angels not Codex: Rofl Angels.

As long as its WYSIWYG and I know they're SW, I'm fine, In fact, using Dreadnoughts as TWC is a really cool idea IMO.

Snikkyd wrote:As long as its WYSIWYG and I know they're SW, I'm fine, In fact, using Dreadnoughts as TWC is a really cool idea IMO.

I'm thinking Marines in battlesuits... kinda like Avatar.

To be fair I probably wouldn't take the 3 point hit if I played them as Dark Angels. But DA's don't fit my play style so I'm off to a newer codex

And I don't know if you would have that problem. Seems to stem mainly from people's personal opinions. I didn't get hit on sports all weekend when I ran them at a recent GT so I wouldn't expect to take to hard a hit.

Snikkyd wrote:As long as its WYSIWYG and I know they're SW, I'm fine, In fact, using Dreadnoughts as TWC is a really cool idea IMO.

Using heavily converted, clearly cavalry mechanized dred-like models is a really cool idea.

Plopping down 6 of the new dred kit out of the box and calling them TWC sounds like an abomination that makes the 'bike' proxies sound reasonable.

The new thing I have seen is people trying to use the new Kans models as Mega armor nobz... that is a bit of too muchery for me.