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Other than a pylon what are some good necron counters to flyers?

We never really had any in the past. Forgeworld was our only within codex options, which is why Tau use to be a normal add-in for their optional use of Skyfire.

Now, it is just someone with MWBD giving out +1 to hit as a counter to "Hard to Hit" making infantry hit on normal 3+'s

ski107 wrote:

 skoffs wrote:
What you are describing is one of the earlier variations of the "Deceiver Bomb".
It works, but it's just not very efficient. We've since leaned in favor of shooting based alpha strikes.

Do you happen to know where in the thread the more modern deceiver bombs are? I was still looking at the old methods.

Everyone kind of came to the consensus that most of the Deceiver Bombs weren't very viable. The combat versions, anyway.
The most common one is just Deceiver + two big units of Warriors. Simple but a pain in the ass for your opponent to deal with.
If you want to be ridiculous you add in a couple Night Scythes or Monoliths and have the shooters disembark on turn one, combining their fire for a decent amount of Dakka.
But really you're probably better off just running it simply. If you want, you could throw in a Ghost Ark with some HQ in it to run up the board to support them turn two. Stick a couple Doomsday Arks in the back field to lend their fire support and you have the core of a list.

Behold the ridiculousness-

How do you guys feel about a 10 man Flayed Ones unit? Is that just too small? I figure that in any list, you would have bigger shooting threats, so if they overreact on the flayed ones and blow them away that's probably fine. It's also nice having something that can deepstrike in and add pressure against a problem unit. I'm just wondering if you need to go all in on a max size squad. I'm also wondering if Deathmarks aren't just better.

For backfield disruption I think Tomb Sentinels or Tomb Stalkers are a better deal than Flayed Ones.

If you can figure out a way to reliable buff a unit of Flayed Ones with an HQ then I think they could be a solid pick. The problem is our HQs are slow except for the CCB.

 Egyptian Space Zombie wrote:
How do you guys feel about a 10 man Flayed Ones unit? Is that just too small? I figure that in any list, you would have bigger shooting threats, so if they overreact on the flayed ones and blow them away that's probably fine. It's also nice having something that can deepstrike in and add pressure against a problem unit. I'm just wondering if you need to go all in on a max size squad. I'm also wondering if Deathmarks aren't just better.

Efficiency wise they are cost prohibitive for their points.

Warriors in cover with a cryptek and GA nearby can still die very quickly to focused fire, imagine how long an unbuffed lonely squad of flayed ones will last, not that long at all. And a max squad is 420 points, for like 50 more points you can take a tesseract vault or a pylon...

What do you think about Raven guard chapter tactics?
(-1 to any hit rolls)

It makes our tesla weapons pretty useless.

 Pepe96 wrote:
What do you think about Raven guard chapter tactics?
(-1 to any hit rolls)

It makes our tesla weapons pretty useless.

Sort of. Tesla weapons are usually 24" range anyway, and the stronger variants tend to be on fast platforms.
Scythes won't care, and annihilation barges generally won't care. Immortals will care though.
Note that only infantry, bikes and dreadnoughts get the CT. Vehicles can be targeted normally.

Also, its hit rolls when shooting. For obvious reasons; it ceases to apply when you are 12" away.

 Egyptian Space Zombie wrote:
How do you guys feel about a 10 man Flayed Ones unit? Is that just too small? I figure that in any list, you would have bigger shooting threats, so if they overreact on the flayed ones and blow them away that's probably fine. It's also nice having something that can deepstrike in and add pressure against a problem unit. I'm just wondering if you need to go all in on a max size squad. I'm also wondering if Deathmarks aren't just better.

I reckon Flayed Ones are more a go big or go home strategy. 40 of them (2x20) seems better to me.

 Pepe96 wrote:
What do you think about Raven guard chapter tactics?
(-1 to any hit rolls)

It makes our tesla weapons pretty useless.

Had a game with me playing harlequins and the opponent tesla heavy Necrons. He did stop shooting my 'weavers with tesla on vehicles as much as he could. But he was still tossing MWBD on the Immortals so at least they can still proc on 6s.

 Draco765 wrote:

 Pepe96 wrote:
What do you think about Raven guard chapter tactics?
(-1 to any hit rolls)

It makes our tesla weapons pretty useless.

Had a game with me playing harlequins and the opponent tesla heavy Necrons. He did stop shooting my 'weavers with tesla on vehicles as much as he could. But he was still tossing MWBD on the Immortals so at least they can still proc on 6s.

An eldar player in the necron thread? I detect a spy!

How do the 8ed eldar/clowns hold up to the Necrons?
Any wisdom you can impart?

Okay, so min sized Warrior units are inadvisable as they're too easy to wipe, thus negating RP.
And QS spam is pretty good because your opponent will have trouble trying to deal with it all.
...
But what if you spam Ghost Arks full of Warriors?
Troops + Transport = 290 points.
In a 2000 point list you can fit six of them, plus a couple of Crypteks (and 4 Scarabs to make it an even 2000). That's one GA+W squad for every objective.
Would something like this actually be able to do much?

Blow up the star weavers, force them to footslog it. Turtle and force them through screens of chaff that they can't fall back past because there is no space.

Scarabs are actually much, much better against harlies than warriors. 9 are cheaper than 10 warriors, and have more wounds, have the mobility to get the charge off, and if not due to map type they are a much more durable screen capable of mitigating their CC damage enough that our guns can blast them off the board. TA and DDA are good here. TA fleshbane flamer and tesla cannon for the players, or high power for the starweavers.

They're an elite army, so put enough shots on them and kablamo

 skoffs wrote:
Okay, so min sized Warrior units are inadvisable as they're too easy to wipe, thus negating RP.
In a 2000 point list you can fit six of them, plus a couple of Crypteks (and 4 Scarabs to make it an even 2000). That's one GA+W squad for every objective.
Would something like this actually be able to do much?

And than u'll meet a pack of Imperial Knights or 5 Stormravens with Guilliman.
I believe that worriors are great to stand, but they aren't designed for damage dealing.

mrWermut wrote:

 skoffs wrote:
Okay, so min sized Warrior units are inadvisable as they're too easy to wipe, thus negating RP.
In a 2000 point list you can fit six of them, plus a couple of Crypteks (and 4 Scarabs to make it an even 2000). That's one GA+W squad for every objective.
Would something like this actually be able to do much?

And than u'll meet a pack of Imperial Knights or 5 Stormravens with Guilliman.
I believe that worriors are great to stand, but they aren't designed for damage dealing.

Yeah I feel they are casual kings, but in competition, too expensive for what they offer, considering you need max squad size, a GA and a cryptek for them to really be durable, and even then focused fire will wipe all of that off the board quick smart.

Personally, necrons power this edition comes from our vehicles. Fast, durable, hard hitting for relatively cheap. For example, a DDA is only 84 odd points more expensive than 10 warriors, with the same gauss firepower, faster, more durable, more wounds that regenerate, and a massive gun. All with a better save. Warriors look crap next to them.

Every vehicle with a foot troop equivilant is either better than or on par with them (Anni barge).

We also have some of the best chaff in the game, easily spammable, and cheap as chips compared to the rest of the codex. But I've gone on enough about scarabs already.

Better save? It has a 4+ like warriors. Unless you count QS, but that's not really a save.

Is it worth taking 2 stalkers in 2000 points? I've bought two start collecting boxes but I'm not sure if I should build both.

Considering Ghost Ark, it is better than warriors equivalent . For same price we have 14w with 6T rather than 12w with 4t in a warriors squad. And it can not be destoryed by a low moral, and extremely manurable and so on.

But the main difference is that an infantry unit may be buffed quite high, while a vehicle can not. So i don't personally think that and infantry pick is worst than and vehilce one for the same price.

Is it worth taking 2 stalkers in 2000 points?

Seems that it is not. What You reaaly need is 2 Doomsday cannons.

mrWermut wrote:
Considering Ghost Ark, it is better than warriors equivalent . For same price we have 14w with 6T rather than 12w with 4t in a warriors squad. And it can not be destoryed by a low moral, and extremely manurable and so on.

But the main difference is that an infantry unit may be buffed quite high, while a vehicle can not. So i don't personally think that and infantry pick is worst than and vehilce one for the same price.

Is it worth taking 2 stalkers in 2000 points?

Seems that it is not. What You reaaly need is 2 Doomsday cannons.

I have two Doomsday arks - I might sell the second Stalker then, thanks

Nagerash wrote:

 Draco765 wrote:

 Pepe96 wrote:
What do you think about Raven guard chapter tactics?
(-1 to any hit rolls)

It makes our tesla weapons pretty useless.

Had a game with me playing harlequins and the opponent tesla heavy Necrons. He did stop shooting my 'weavers with tesla on vehicles as much as he could. But he was still tossing MWBD on the Immortals so at least they can still proc on 6s.

An eldar player in the necron thread? I detect a spy!

How do the 8ed eldar/clowns hold up to the Necrons?
Any wisdom you can impart?

I actually play three armies, Necron were my first army, then I got into Khorne Daemonkin Chaos, and then recently Harlequins.

But, yeah once he was able to deal with the Starweavers holding the Troupes, they were easily wiped off the board with the Tesla. The only good thing to know when facing Eldar is to remember that Wraiths fall pretty quickly to Smite Spam, but that is common when facing any army that can cast that.

interviglium wrote:
I have two Doomsday arks - I might sell the second Stalker then, thanks

I would suggest You to wait until the new Codex arrives.

mrWermut wrote:
Considering Ghost Ark, it is better than warriors equivalent . For same price we have 14w with 6T rather than 12w with 4t in a warriors squad. And it can not be destoryed by a low moral, and extremely manurable and so on.

But the main difference is that an infantry unit may be buffed quite high, while a vehicle can not. So i don't personally think that and infantry pick is worst than and vehilce one for the same price.

Is it worth taking 2 stalkers in 2000 points?

Seems that it is not. What You reaaly need is 2 Doomsday cannons.

A GA could be considered a buff for the warriors, while the DDA is a straight comparison.

Additionally, while warriors can be buffed, it's more of a points sink, your looking at a cryptek and lord, so around an extra 100 points, for relatively no damage output, compared to a stalker which is synergistic and has a higher damage output, more survivable and is faster than a footslogging cryptek and lord.

mrWermut wrote:
For the same price we have 14w with 6T rather than 12w with 4T in a warriors squad. And it can not be destoryed by a low moral, and extremely manurable and so on.

Huh, I hadn't thought about it like that.

I guess their other downside (in addition to not getting cover as easily) would be contesting objectives with them wouldn't really work, as you need superior numbers there.

Nice point, though.
-If you want Gauss flayers, consider taking a Ghost Ark instead of Warriors. (similar points (170 vs 168) gets you the same amount of wounds, but less shots (10 vs 14) on a faster tougher body with the same save.)
-If you want Tesla, consider taking an Annihilation Barge instead of Immortals. (similar points (146 vs 136) gets you the same amount of wounds but less shots (11 S6-7 vs 16 S5) on a faster tougher body, though a worse save.)
-If you want Heavy Gauss Cannons, consider taking Triarch Stalkers instead of Heavy Destroyers (30 point difference (181 vs 150) gets you 4 more wounds (10 vs 6) and the same shots on a tougher body with the same speed and save.)

Pro: they all get QS.
Con: they all deteriorate in effectiveness.

 skoffs wrote:

mrWermut wrote:
For the same price we have 14w with 6T rather than 12w with 4T in a warriors squad. And it can not be destoryed by a low moral, and extremely manurable and so on.

Huh, I hadn't thought about it like that.

I guess their other downside (in addition to not getting cover as easily) would be contesting objectives with them wouldn't really work, as you need superior numbers there.

Nice point, though.
-If you want Gauss flayers, consider taking a Ghost Ark instead of Warriors. (similar points (170 vs 168) gets you the same amount of wounds, but less shots (10 vs 14) on a faster tougher body with the same save.)
-If you want Tesla, consider taking an Annihilation Barge instead of Immortals. (similar points (146 vs 136) gets you the same amount of wounds but less shots (11 S6-7 vs 16 S5) on a faster tougher body, though a worse save.)
-If you want Heavy Gauss Cannons, consider taking Triarch Stalkers instead of Heavy Destroyers (30 point difference (181 vs 150) gets you 4 more wounds (10 vs 6) and the same shots on a tougher body with the same speed and save.)

Pro: they all get QS.
Con: they all deteriorate in effectiveness.

But they all regen wounds, and I know it's not much, and RP can kick in and save you, but it's not reliable. A smart general can work around QS only if he has the specific weapons that aren't too spammed in comparison to lascannons etc, whereas no matter his built/list he can easily negate RP.

In response to holding objectives, if your spamming vehicles, you need screens. Fast screens can rush and hold objectives if you have enough held back to protec the vehicles.

Hopefully they adjust it in the codex, but right now most of our infantry combo's are too cost prohibitive to be competitive, especially when we go up against the nasty lists.

List building tactic question:
If we've got six Heavy Support choices in a Spearhead Detachment and an extra 80 points, is it worth adding a Sword-Lord to split / make a second detachment to get an additional Command Point, or to keep it just a single Spearhead and spend the points on 6 Scarabs?

The list in question-
Considered adding CCBs instead of Lords in a Ghost Ark, but don't know if they'd be pulling their weight-

 skoffs wrote:
List building tactic question:
If we've got six Heavy Support choices in a Spearhead Detachment and an extra 80 points, is it worth adding a Sword-Lord to split / make a second detachment to get an additional Command Point, or to keep it just a single Spearhead and spend the points on 6 Scarabs?

The list in question-

Spoiler:

++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Necrons) [100 PL, 1999pts] ++

+ HQ +
Lord [5 PL, 84pts]: Warscythe
Lord [5 PL, 76pts]: Hyperphase Sword

+ Elites +
Triarch Stalker [8 PL, 181pts]: Twin Heavy Gauss Cannon
Triarch Stalker [8 PL, 181pts]: Twin Heavy Gauss Cannon

+ Fast Attack +
Canoptek Scarabs [6 PL, 117pts]: 9x Canoptek Scarab Swarm

+ Heavy Support +
Tesseract Ark [13 PL, 246pts] 2x Tesla Cannon
Tesseract Ark [13 PL, 246pts] 2x Tesla Cannon
Annihilation Barge [7 PL, 146pts]: Tesla Cannon
Annihilation Barge [7 PL, 146pts]: Tesla Cannon
Doomsday Ark [10 PL, 203pts]
Doomsday Ark [10 PL, 203pts]

+ Dedicated Transport +
Ghost Ark [8 PL, 170pts]

Considered adding CCBs instead of Lords in a Ghost Ark, but don't know if they'd be pulling their weight-

Spoiler:

++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Necrons) [102 PL, 1993pts] ++

+ HQ +
Catacomb Command Barge [10 PL, 162pts]: Tesla Cannon, Warscythe
Catacomb Command Barge [10 PL, 162pts]: Tesla Cannon, Warscythe

+ Elites +
Triarch Stalker [8 PL, 181pts]: Twin Heavy Gauss Cannon
Triarch Stalker [8 PL, 181pts]: Twin Heavy Gauss Cannon

+ Fast Attack +
Canoptek Scarabs [4 PL, 65pts]: 5x Canoptek Scarab Swarm
Canoptek Scarabs [4 PL, 52pts]: 4x Canoptek Scarab Swarm

+ Heavy Support +
Tesseract Ark [13 PL, 246pts] 2x Tesla Cannon
Tesseract Ark [13 PL, 246pts] 2x Tesla Cannon
Annihilation Barge [7 PL, 146pts]: Tesla Cannon
Annihilation Barge [7 PL, 146pts]: Tesla Cannon
Doomsday Ark [10 PL, 203pts]
Doomsday Ark [10 PL, 203pts]

For the first list I would swap the GA for another DDA or Tesseract Ark. If your not using its Re-RP or to carry infantry then use a DDA as you still get the 2 Gauss Arrays but also the Cannon with 2 gun profiles for 33 more points. I'd swap both lords for Toholk for his d3 wounds to a vehicle and invest in more scarabs.

For the 2nd one I would drop a CCB and invest in more Scarabs.

So the additional CP is not worth the 76 points, then?

Personally, no.

I feel, CP are handy, but at the end of the day, rerolling a dice etc is not as valuable as more models on the table. For eg. A CP reroll might be critical for auto passing ld on 20x warriors, but if it came at the cost of another 10 warriors...

10 warriors can put out more damage than 20 RP'ing, because they are also shooting alongside the 20 T1, in addition to soaking fire from other targets etc.

In my comp list for example, I only have 4 CP, and will be saving them to reroll 1's on my scarab replenishment rolls.

The fight against the Blood Angels went better than expected. Expecially since he brought an entirely different list then what I expected.

Basically we switched roles. I had a force with 2 good cc units and he had a full dakka force...

Who the hell expects when you fight blood angels, that he is bringing 0 close combat units. At the start I had no idea what I was going to do with my Lychguard and Praetorians.

His List:


My List (I already posted it 1 page back):


I got to choose deployment and went for Search and destroy, so that I was as close as possible and my cc units could potentially get in combat with anything.
The mission was "The Relic" which was good for me, as that meant he couldn't go full defensive if he wanted to get near the middle and get that thing.
First turn my Stalker and Ark killed one of his Dreadnoughts he left in the open. The gauss cannons killed a few tact in a building.

His first turn his stormraven flew forwards and divided his shots between my Stalker and immortals. (I hid my Praetorians and lychguard out of sight to wait for an opportunity to counter attack)
after failing 5/6 3up saves (they were in cover with -1 AP), combined with the other shooting from the tank and stormraven killed all my immortals. the Dreadnought and rockets from the stormraven put 6 wounds on my stalker.

He kinda forgot that my Praetorians were flying, so put his stormraven too close. I MWBD the Praetorians with Anrakyr, and moved up.
I took control of the stormraven and shot at some tacticals in a wood (only ones in range), but doing nothing unfortunately. My Stalker and Ark both shot at the stormraven doing 2 or 3 wounds only,
but allowing me to reroll 1's which was crucial for the one shot wristcannon that anrakyr has + the shooting of the praetorians! When I assaulted with the Praetorians he had 5 wounds left, which the praetorians took care of with some slight lucky rolls (anrakyr wasn't in range for +1 attack unfortunately).
He did kill one praetorian (2x 1 wound) in overwatch. I also deepstruck my Deathmarks in a ruin near his bloodpriest trying to stop him from getting the tacticals back up. 20 shots only 1 '6' to wound he saved all the normal hits -_-.
While it was nice to have the option to shoot his characters and deepstrike a shooting squad somewhere, we should expect them to just draw some fire, RP some back and be annoying more than really expect them to remove characters. Unless you get lucky and roll 3/4 6's.

In his turn he fired everything in range at my praetorians now kinda stuck in the open, leaving 3 alive. I even saved my Stalker from dying with a lucky armor save of 6 from shooting of the Dreadnought (damn his 2 damage). and my Deathmarks were reduced to 1 guy (after morale) caused by smite, the other blood angel MW power and 4 bolters of the Dev squad. Altought the Lib did cause himself 1 MW with rolling 2 6's.

In my turn I had some lucky RP rolls: 4 Praetorians returned and 5 Deathmarks. I moved the Lychguard up towards the Relic who were guarding Anrakyr vs potential Flanking stormravens trying to shoot him. And moved Anrakyr + the Praetorians towards the grav cannon tact squad.
the gauss cannons of the ark and Deathmarks (they gave up on the 2+ save priest hiding in cover) finished off the already wounded plasma cannon tact squad, and the Ark and Stalker wounded the tank taking it down to 4 wounds. The scarabs charged the grav cannon squad taking overwatch.
The Praetorians followed. Removing the squad without many problems. The Praetorians consolidated towards the last tact squad which put them into the woods. and the scarabs followed them forming a screen.

In his turn he shot as much as he could at my Praetorians, only killing 3. His Lib blew himself up rolling 2 6's AGAIN! This time he rolled a 5 for his D3 MW perils which he rerolled into a 6 blowing himself up .
He even killed a guy for the dev squad and put wounds on the Tank and Dreadnought. The tacticals charged the scarabs hoping to wipe them and consolidate into the Praetorians, but with 5 tacticals, 1 sarge and 1 heavy weapon dude left 1 scarab alive with 1 wound
After seeing 3 Praetorians get back up again, and the Lychguard about to take the relic unopposed, he declared defeat. .

It was a very close game with good and bad rolling on both sides, but his main fault, I think, was puting his Stormraven too close and spreading out his units too much because of my Deathmarks, which really underpreformed.
That meant he couldn't bring enough dakka to finish my Stalker or Praetorians allowing me to keep the reroll 1 to hit for the entire game (which really helped my TA) and allowed my Praetorians to jump from squad to squad weathering the incomming fire.
He did learn a lot, but I guess he insulted the Sanguinor by not bringing any cc units .

I hope you enjoyed the writeup.

I enjoyed indeed, thanks!