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Made in us
Water-Caste Negotiator




How are 40k tournaments run?

This topic is directed at both players and organizers.

I have never been in a tabletop gaming tournament, unfortunately. However, for the entirety of my adolescence and adult life, I have been involved in running chess tournaments, some of which with very large turnouts (We currently run the U.S. Amateur East Tournament, which nets about 150 - 200 players between adult and children’s sections each summer.) We also often run quad-based tournaments for about 20-40 people once a month.

Mainly, I am curious as to how they are run, how winners are determined, and how bad sports (what 40k calls the TFG and what chess players just call “a-holes”) are dealt with. What are the rewards? Money? Trophies? Models? And in what ratios?

For a picture of how I perceive things… currently, the way chess tournaments are run is as follows:

Our small tournaments are “quads” or 4 man round robins – players are divided into groups of 4, play 3 games, and winner takes a prize bigger than what he put in (but not so big that we lose money, of course) if odd numbers are left, we use a 5-6 man swiss, depending on how many are left over. Children (“scholastic” players) usually can choose between money or trophies, but this depends on TD, some go for money only, some trophies only.

In emergencies, a secondary TD can fill in for games if it is necessary to avoid weird bye situations, particularly in smaller tournies. TD’s usually don’t since they are usually paid pretty good.

Bigger touraments use swiss pairing, with the guy having the most points in his section being on top when all the rounds are over; Wins are 1, Losses, DQ and such are 0’s, and draws are 1/2. “tie breaks” are used in ties, and I think it involved USCF ratings in some capacity (if 2 players are 5-1, but one got 5-1 against higher rated players I believe, something like that… but I need to check to be sure that’s how it works.)

Ratings are used to determine who plays who first round.. but how is this determined in 40k? Knowing the USCF (united states chess federation) rating system, I feel that some sort of modest rating system would be helpful for figuring out who plays who first round and such.

TFG and cheaters rarely show up in chess, but it happens. Usually, their tactics are more subtle – an adult may stand over the board instead of sitting when playing a child so as to intimidate the latter. In such a case, my experience is that we usually ask the person to stop, and since my father is not very tolerant of who don’t follow rules, failing to listen after warnings means possible DQ. I need to reread the USCF rulebook to see how they handle this kind of thing again (since I am usually only at tournaments in a assistant capability - to lift trophies, do floor duty, help out with parings, etc.)

Time is an issue, yes, particularly if your venue gives you limited time to wrap up the games, but players are expected to bring chess clocks, (where each player has a limited amount of time) with time controls being between 30 minutes to 6 hours depending on the tournament. I think any concept of competitive 40k would benefit from their inclusion in tournaments – it would kill claims of “stalling” outright if you were going to lose the game on time for stalling! (it would help finesse based armies like elder/tau who cannot realistically hope to table opponents) Of course, in 40k, the penalty might be more lenient (your opponent counts as having an extra objective maybe? It needs to be play tested.)

Additionally, time gives you a way to penalize a TFG during a game – is he found making an “illegal move”? He loses 10 minutes off his clock! This is a way to discipline illegal moves in chess, btw.

Sportsmanship scores obviously aren’t in chess, but you CAN claim someone was a bad sport to the TD (tournament director, as we call organizers). I feel this makes more sense than sportsmanship scores, from what I read of them, but it’s only really reported in the worse cases anyways.

How expensive is it to buy dice in bulk? Buying dice in bulk and then requiring people use dice all from the same pool might help with claims of “fixed” dice that I have also heard of. Chess TD’s are expected to buy boards in bulk and provide them, even if some get coffee spilled on them (ruining them).

A lot of the above is possible, in part, because the USCF helps to pay for the biggest tournaments and maintaining a rating system.

So, how are 40k tournaments run, and do any of my ideas make sense? Before we begin, I must remark that I belong to the view that tournaments should have best sportsmanship/painting rewards and such (the bigger chess tournaments sometimes have similar prizes – team tournaments will sometimes have “best team name” and even “best costume as a prize [to my knowledge, only the team tournament east has the latter,]), but ultimately the tournament should reward the best player. This is my stance and is the underlying logic I use when making suggestions about tournaments.

...Rule 37. There is no 'overkill.' There is only 'open fire' and 'time to reload.'

-From "The 7 Habits of Highly Successful Pirates" 
   
Made in us
Committed Chaos Cult Marine






40K tournaments are more loosely run than chess tournaments.

Most tournaments are Swiss 3 or 5 round, with 1st round pairings usually being random. Or determined by "comp" scores. Or tea leaf reading. Take your pick

Almost every tornament winner is called, "Best Overall". Their score is a composite of all their scores. The 2nd best score at almost every tournament is "Best General"-battlepoints based.

Your take on tourneys seems to be one I approve of: seperate scoring. Sports is a category, Paint is a category, and battlepoints is a category. With none of the categories affecting the others.

I would personally love to see chess clocks and dice given out. I'd be happy to return both at the end of the day.

Check out my blog at:http://ironchaosbrute.blogspot.com.

Vivano crudelis exitus.

Da Boss wrote:No no, Richard Dawkins arresting the Pope is inherently hilarious. It could only be funnier if when it happens, His Holiness exclaims "Rats, it's the Fuzz! Let's cheese it!" and a high speed Popemobile chase ensues.
 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran



Culver City, CA

Iron_Chaos_Brute wrote:40K tournaments are more loosely run than chess tournaments.

Most tournaments are Swiss 3 or 5 round, with 1st round pairings usually being random. Or determined by "comp" scores. Or tea leaf reading. Take your pick

Almost every tornament winner is called, "Best Overall". Their score is a composite of all their scores. The 2nd best score at almost every tournament is "Best General"-battlepoints based.

Your take on tourneys seems to be one I approve of: seperate scoring. Sports is a category, Paint is a category, and battlepoints is a category. With none of the categories affecting the others.

I would personally love to see chess clocks and dice given out. I'd be happy to return both at the end of the day.


A lot of tournaments do seperate them.

Highest paint + sports + battle score is the "Best Overall"
Best Painted is highest paint score
Best Sports is highest sports score
Best General is highest battle score

You can't win more than one award, so the only time 2nd best score would get Best General is if the Overall winner had a higher battlescore.

"There is no such thing as a cheesy space marine army, but any army that can beat space marines is cheesy. " -- Blackmoor

 
   
Made in gb
Dispassionate Imperial Judge






HATE Club, East London

frenrik wrote:A lot of tournaments do seperate them.

Highest paint + sports + battle score is the "Best Overall"
Best Painted is highest paint score
Best Sports is highest sports score
Best General is highest battle score

You can't win more than one award, so the only time 2nd best score would get Best General is if the Overall winner had a higher battlescore.


Separate scoring is my preference as well, allowing players to compete in as many or as few 'events' as they feel comfortable with.

Where i tend to separate from the crowd is that I believe, since everyone has different priorities in the hobby, the General, Sports, Theme, and Painting prizes should all be equal. If you really HAVE to have a best overall, it should be an equal ratio of point from each (so, in my example, Battle Points are worth 25% overall). But in general, I'd prefer no overall prize at all.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/03/30 17:27:27


   
Made in us
Committed Chaos Cult Marine






ArbitorIan wrote:
Where i tend to separate from the crowd is that I believe, since everyone has different priorities in the hobby, the General, Sports, Theme, and Painting prizes should all be equal. If you really HAVE to have a best overall, it should be an equal ratio of point from each (so, in my example, Battle Points are worth 25% overall). But in general, I'd prefer no overall prize at all.

QFT. And then call "Best Overall" something like "Best Hobbiest" because it's an equal examination of the whole hobby. If you have it.

Check out my blog at:http://ironchaosbrute.blogspot.com.

Vivano crudelis exitus.

Da Boss wrote:No no, Richard Dawkins arresting the Pope is inherently hilarious. It could only be funnier if when it happens, His Holiness exclaims "Rats, it's the Fuzz! Let's cheese it!" and a high speed Popemobile chase ensues.
 
   
 
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