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Here they are. I don't intend or expect Games Workshop to make any of these changes, but I figured I'd ask for other peoples' opinions on them.

Hey brother,

I'm sure you put some time into this, but speaking strictly for myself, there's pretty much no way I'm going to download something posted on a forum by someone I don't know. Nothing personal.

If you put 'em in a post, I'd comment.

RZ

I downloaded it, its real and such. Nothing wrong with it ^.^

Quite long and detailed, I liked alot of what you said, Warp.

Zeke,

You're right. Never really thought about it (I figured the formatting would be easier, but you've got a better point). I'll try posting them:

This is just a list of basically everything that I‟d like to see changed in WHFB, and questions that I have about things that I have a problem with but don‟t feel confident enough with the army or rule to offer an alternative. These changes are only suggestions. This game is intricate in the extreme, so to say that there is one definitive answer to a rules problem would be unbelievable stupid (so I don‟t).
General:
 Fear: losing combat to a fear-causing unit that outnumbers you should cost you another point of CR, not essentially auto-break you. I‟m tired of situations where Grail knights or iron breakers lose combat to ghouls or dryads that outnumber by one model by one point of CR.
 Poison: this rule feels close, but then there‟s this thing with high toughness no armour monsters. Logistically, a giant should not be more concerned of skinks than the goblins he fights alongside. Suggestions?
 Hatred: does hating someone make you better at fighting them, or more reckless? What if Hatred allowed you to ignore CR from stuff besides kills if you lose combat or something (this would, all in all, make DE tons better, I think, so maybe not).
 No partials on templates. Knights, chariots, and large targets should fear flame templates and giant boulders just as much as rank-and-file.
 Magic: I hope the rumor of 2 dice min. is true. It really makes sense; there should always be a risk. Also, does anyone think that the Miscast table should have a little more bite?
 Dragons: why do breath weapons suck (minus the DE one)? S2, 3, or 4? I‟m not saying that dragons should be better…but maybe they could up the strength and make it usable every other turn or something? Also, they should be immune to the effects of other breath weapons of the same type and effects purely based on that element (fire, poison, whatever).
 Weapons: shouldn‟t all weapons be balanced in the hands of an average warrior? EHW, GW, HWS—they should all cost relatively the same, because the effects are all equal (situational, but equal). I‟d also like to see some flexibility in terms of equipping units, like offering most general unit types (Empire state troops, clanrats, dwarf warriors, etc.) a wide selection of weapons for the same cost. NOTE: certain elite or specialized units that benefit more from one weapon type than another (Saurus with spears, Swordmasters with
great weapons) ought to pay more for them, and they generally do (except Saurus), so okay.
o Spears, by the way, don‟t seem to do what they should. The rule for pikes is right on, so how about this: ASF when charged, fight in two ranks. Then regular WS3 S3 A1 would actually take spears. And pikes should be a standard piece of equipment for all armies (though Saurus and HE spearmen would have to pay more, probably).
o On a similar note, why is Brettonia the only people to make use of fire-arrows and defensive stakes? Maybe that would take too much away from them.
 Magic Items:
o you can choose whether or not you use a magic weapon or your hand weapon (or great weapon or spear or whatever). The HWSB should apply if you have a magic hand weapon (a magic weapon that doesn‟t specify it is another weapon type).
o Ward saves are important. If a book can‟t have a solid 4 or 5+ Ward save, their general is substantially more kill-able. I would suggest that everyone can get something like this (except no 4+ turned 3+ for Tzeentch sorcerer lords), or everyone choose from a slightly larger list of conditional ward save items. I would hesitate on the second, however, because that basically means that dragons and greater daemons can kill normal guys even faster.
o I also think that the Dwarf book offers a cool way to make items, and I wish that more armies could do that (maybe not to that extent or power, but a sort of build-your-own-goodies sorta‟ thing).
o Finally, I suggest the following prices for common magic items (High Elves can have them at 5pts less):
Sword of Battle 25
Sword of Might 15
Sword of Striking 25
Biting Blade 5 (this is not that good)
Enchanted Shield 10
Talisman of Protection 15
Dispel Scroll 25
Power Stone 20
Staff of Sorcery 35 (same here)
Warbanner 25
Specific Armies: these are any and all problems that I have with these books that I can also remember right now. I am a Skaven player at heart, but I believe I‟ve been pretty fair. A lot of the books I just haven‟t played as much as I would probably need to really get into detail on this stuff, but I‟m tryin‟ nonetheless.
Here‟s a few things I have to say about army books in general:
 Each book should have about the same number of choices overall. Flexibility when building your army means very little in random, pitched battles (which most games are), and it matters even less when people only take one or two builds, anyway.
 There really shouldn‟t be books that are specifically better against others. Dwarfs vs. orcs. High Elves vs. Beastmen. Vampires vs. (at least, the old) Skaven. Ideally, there shouldn‟t be armies whose general strategy is defeated by another due to special rules (like hatred) or due to their general strategy (like VC versus Skaven). To rectify this, I would suggest that things like hatred of a specific army or model (such as Dwarfs versus greenskins) be at least reciprocal (so orcs and regular goblins hate dwarfs), and that army books are…generally put together more carefully, I guess.
 Finally, there‟s the idea of what‟s elite and what‟s a horde. Some models are better than others, while those other models outnumber them. This seems to be the tier of quality fighters/archers/what-have-you:
 At the bottom: skaven, goblins, zombies and such (below average)
 Humans (average)
 Orcs, dwarfs (above average)
 Elves, followers of chaos, ogres—overall; their T and W makes up for low WS (far above average)
 Daemons, vampires, other immortal things (the pinnacle of bad-assery).
 Beasts of Chaos: these guys are pretty new. Not really sure yet.
o Harpies should be core (not satisfy core, just be core). Even with their Scout upgrade; if you want ten units of five T3 models with no saves for 15pts. each, be my guest.
o Gifts of Chaos: I was really hoping for a fairly long list of weird stuff…but this is rather boring.
 Brettonia: such an old book, but still surprisingly solid. They do need a bit a‟ work, though.
o Why are Questing and Grail knights so expensive? Compare to Chaos Knights (even considering “Living Saints” and the Lance formation, the latter are almost always better). I think they ought to drop in point value, though how much I don‟t know.
o The same goes for the Battle Pilgrims. They cost as much as flagellants, and they exchange Unbreakable and The End is Neigh! For Stubborn and a 4+ 6+? I dunno.
 Daemons of Chaos: these guys are…good. But not as crazy as many seem to think.
o Khornate stuff should be MR2. This would at least give them a substantial chance of dealing with magic missiles, and it would let a Khorne army be a legitimate choice in larger games. I know it goes against the fluff, but maybe Fleshies could take a hit down to MR2 to round this out (and make them less of an obvious choice).
o The Great Unclean One ought to be WS6 with A5 and not have a flail (why are he and the Bloodthirster the only daemons to use equipment anyway?). The Lord of Change can have the WS4 A4 and be a level 4 wizard or something (why isn‟t he, anyway? Why is that upgrade an option?).
o What if Bloodletters were S4 T4? Their Killing Blow would matter more (because their strength would yield less wounds), and they wouldn‟t fall over dead every time you shoot or charge them. Or maybe drop Killing Blow and give „em frenzy. Maybe heavy armour. Also, the Herald would be S5 then (one more than regular guys), and not be as strong as the Bloodthirster („cause that‟s stupid).
o People complain about Plaguebearers—what if they replaced the locus Regeneration with Cloud of Flies?
o Daemonettes aren‟t that good, either. What about the ol‟ -1Ld instead of AP? That would probably make them too good. But maybe not.
o The gift Souldrinker and the Standard of Chaos Glory should not exist. If the spell Miasma of Pestilence must remain, it certainly shouldn‟t be the one they can always get (and it shouldn‟t cast on a 3+).
 Dark Elves: oy, right? So. A lot of underpriced stuff. A lot of ridiculous stuff.
o Hydras, Black Guard, Repeater Crossbowmen, the Lifetaker, the Armour of Eternal Servitutde, and the Pendant of Khaleth should all cost more. The pendant should auto-fail on a 5 or a 6 as well (against S5 or high, you‟ve got a 2+ Ward for 35pts, at S4 or less, your 1+ armour will keep you safe).
o Rending Stars should not stack with Manbane. Hitting and wounding on 2+ for three attacks/round is silly if you‟re tossin‟ them at Hammerers or Chaos Knights, and I don‟t think I need to mention S7 against chariots.
o Hagbrew…shouldn‟t this not count standards, high ground, etc. for both sides? Maybe extend it to ranks as well, so only kills count?
o Manticores suck. They need to drop in points and…a 4+ scaly skin save? Something to make them worth taking.
o Shades need a maximum unit size. No more units of 80 with assassins throwing S=your T+2 stars out of it.
 Dwarfs: a very solid, dependable army. But they need some work in certain departments (to promote not gun-lines). This army essentially has one way to deploy and two-maybe three-ways to play. Also, has anyone else noticed that all of the really scary stuff is basically meant to kill dwarves? Anything that involves initiative tests and auto-kills with no saves…and let‟s not forget the Runefangs (why did the dwarves make those things?) .NOTE: I say a lot here, and I know some people think that dwarfs are really good, and I‟m not saying that they suck or anything, but I am saying that they are tactically inflexible.
o Great Weapons ASL and you can‟t use a shield with them. Is the M.R.of Kragg really necessary, and is it worth 20pts?
o Thanes should be of Royal Blood. Sheesh. Let Hammerers be something else beyond Lord bodyguards.
o Compared to other typical semi-elite rank-and-file, dwarf warriors seem to cost a tad too much. Maybe 8 points, shield included? And 1pt for GW upgrade (S5 is great, but a 5+ save seems to insure the balance)
o Quarrelers cost too much. They‟re warriors with lighter armour and a crossbow, so that downgrade and that upgrade is worth a net total of 3pts/model? I don‟t think so. Maybe Thunderers are in the same boat, but that +1 to hit is a big difference (basically a +1BS). I‟d say Quarrelers should cost as much as warriors, and Thunderers cost 3pts more, maybe? Maybe more.
o How about a non-character model with more than 1 attack?
o Slayers are almost the mascot of WHFB. They should rock. How about this: WS4, BS3, S4, T4, I3, A2, W1, M3. a rare unit (5-12), skirmished, unbreakable, two attacks, Talismanic tattoos (like the Wood Elves), the Slayer rule applies after weapons, ASB (always strike back), and they must charge any unit that contains at least one model that is either S or T 5 or greater or is unit strength 3+. You couldn‟t give them command, and you could upgrade them to giant slayers (basically, a downgrade of Dragon Slayers without the magic upgrade): WS5, BS3, S4, T4, I3, A3, W1, M3. This would make Slayers really scary—you wouldn‟t want to waste them on tying up stupid stuff or collecting arrows, and other people would try to keep their monsters away from them. Cost…16pts/model, +16pts/giant slayer upgrade? Costly, but really, really mean, and not pathetically fragile (they want to die in honorable combat, not to a hail of repeater bolt-shot.
o The +2 dispel dice is kinda‟ cool, but at larger points it becomes trivial. What if it was +1/1000 points (maximum, not deployed), or every unit of 10 or more had MR2, or both, or something in-between?
o Finally, how about some different runes so every bolt thrower isn‟t S7 flaming attacks or “just” S7.
 The Empire: the most versatile army in the game. So many possible changes, so many possible problems, but so confusing.
o I guess I‟d just like to see something with a little more killing power. The steam tank, the hellblaster, and the war alter are getting tired.
o To continue that, are Knights of the Inner Circle worth the points and the special slot? Again, compare to Chaos Knights (they shouldn‟t be on par, but they should be priced proportionately).
o And while I‟m talking about things that are tired, how about the Griffon Standard and the Speculum? Are they too good? Too cheap? Maybe people wouldn‟t always and forever take the standard if no one on your side could pursue (so 50pt. free company units couldn‟t run things down and kill them).
o I feel like the hero and lord choices for these guys just don‟t cut it. Specifically, the captains and generals of the empire. They‟re cheap, sure, but I‟m not even sure if a Skaven Chieftan or Warlord would decline a challenge from these guys. Maybe make them a little better (+1WS or something?)
o Why does the Rocket Battery cost more than the Volley Gun? It is not as good. At all.
 High Elves: everyone complains about an army-wide ASF. I haven‟t seen evidence that this rule is as broken as so many seem to think.
o Dragon. Armour. Is. Stupid. It does not make sense (my armour protects me from fire…so it can repel flaming dwarven cannon balls). It also effectively makes Regeneration better, because people might be hesitant to take flaming attacks for fear of being able to do absolutely nothing with those attacks to a dragon. It should protect the rider (and only the rider) from fire—flaming attacks become regular attacks, and attacks composed purely of fire are ignored. That would be worth more than it currently costs, but I think it would be fair.
 Hordes of Chaos: once upon a time, Khornate Chosen Knights were the terror of the Old World. Alas, for those times have faded…
o Khornate stuff: MR2 and frenzy? Or maybe MR2 and hatred? Just frenzy means more points for a unit that is much riskier. Once again, Khorne cannot stand on his own, and I think MR2 would help this.
o Tzeentch: sorcerers should either get a +1 to cast (which is really good) or a +1 to Ward saves (which is also really good). Not both. Maybe drop the mark in costs. Maybe.
o Do people feel this is an army that is always the same (dogs, marauder horsemen with MoS, knights with MoN, sorcerers on disks with MoT), or are there significantly varying lists that are competitive that I‟m just not seeing?
o Gifts of Chaos: c‟mon guys, I was really hoping for some cool stuff here. The list is so short and limited and specific, though. But that 40pt swallow whole thing is pretty cool…and funny.
o Nurgle Spells: the Quagmire is a weird spell (there‟s nothing else like it), but it‟s effects rock. They rock so much, in fact, that I‟d say it‟s a little too good.
o Slaanesh Spells: these are not so good. Great against people not immune to psychology, but they are few and far between now.
 Lizardmen: a good book. Not much to say here.
o Rank-and-file skinks seem too bad to be useful. Kroxigors as Core is cool, but I‟m not sure if it makes up for it.
 Ogre Kingdoms: well. Hmm. Here goes.
o Bull charge shouldn‟t be limited. Just “if you charge, you get it” none of this 6” crap, unless they put the same limit on chariots, lances, and O&G boars.
o Legitimate Ward saves? Maybe? What is up with the Spangleshard?
o Leadbelchers need to not suck? A misfire needs to not screw them so badly, I think. Do they need the whole “spend a turn to reload” thing, or would they be too good without it? Seems doubtful.
o The Gut Magic Miscast stable. Go easy on „em, huh? Their magic isn‟t this ridiculous.
o Are gorgers worth it? They don‟t cost that much, but are they good enough?
 Orcs and Goblins: …
o Animosity. I get it. Make the army worse some times and better other times. But the We‟ll Show „Em! Result generally just screws you over anyway. What if you got to choose between (1) normal (not march) move, (2) shoot twice this turn, or (3) re-roll failed rolls to hit, or something? Something to make rolling a 6 good, not sometimes good, usually really bad.
o The Miscast table is absurd. Their magic is actually quite good, but not so good as to warrant this.
o How about…give their normal orc fighty characters some heavy armour?
o Release fanatics as a charge reaction? After the fanatics are released, they basically hurt both sides equally or kill themselves, so why not make that first round really count? People complain about fanatics, but who‟s lost a game to them recently?
o Are Black Orcs a fair price? With shields, they cost 14pts a model. That‟s more than Hammerers or Iron Breakers (and they are almost definitely not overpowered, and they are better). Black orcs cost 1pt less than White Lions, Phoenix Guard, and Swordmasters…sure, they‟re more durable, but they seem to lack the punch that semi-elite infantry (like dwarves) have, while being priced like elite-infantry. A 1pt drop and “Armed to da Teef” lets you choose every round, not just every combat?
o Snotlings are Stubborn 4. These guys should cost 25pts per base, tops, or be better. Somehow.
o Skarsnik‟s Prodder: I think this would be much more worthwhile if it did d6 or even d3 hits, rather than 1.
 Skaven: this book ranges from solid to cr-azy to confusing as Hell.
o The A-Bomb is absurd. But it is 250pts. What if the “Too Horrible to Die” chart was just not there?
o Why do Warpstone tokens exist? They cost 5pts less than Powerstones, give you half the benefit, and can hurt you. They are proportionately worse in every possible way. If they cost…10pts…maybe.
 Tomb Kings: have barely played with these guys…guess why.
o There should be less restriction on character choices. If you want to do an all-liche army, you should be able to. If you want to do an all prince and/or king list (why I don‟t know), you should be able to.
o Make them…more like Vampire Counts?
 Raise skeletons beyond starting number (minimum size 20)
 They should be able to march within 12” of a mummy-type (liche, prince, or king).
 Their magic needs to be a threat. The spells should pack more of a punch when they go off (not sure how, but they should).
 What if their characters could get more points worth of goodies, like vampires?
 Vampire Counts: the bane of my existence for a good while. But I will be fair.
o With the idea that spells take a minimum of 2 dice to cast, their magic seems less threatening…but the ability to spam any of their spells is just absurd. Maybe if it was only Invocation, Raise Dead, and Summon Undead Horde, it would be more reasonable?
o The Blood Drinker should cost more (significantly more). Like 40pts minimum. It‟s a protective and offensive item, and it gives you magic attacks. 40-50pts seems fair.
o The powers that allow vampires to raise other units beyond their starting number should cost more and/or not give a +1 to cast those spells.
o Being able to spend twice the points on characters that other people can seems a bit absurd. I will agree, however, that they should be allowed to be a significant point sink. What about items and powers for a total of 75/150 for heroes/lords?
o Necromancers are terrible. Make them better. Make them worth taking. Upgrades available, a lord choice version, slightly better stats (the buying specific spells for points is a cool mechanic—keep it around).
 Wood Elves: these guys used to be tops, and they can still be a threat, but some stuff has happened.
o The Forest Spirit ward save shouldn‟t be negated by magical attacks. Or maybe it should be negated by flaming attacks or something.
o Why don‟t Wood Elf characters have Glade Guard bows when deployed on foot? I could understand picking up a smaller one when you get on a dragon or something, but otherwise…it‟s just S4, anyway.
o And on Forest Dragons: why do “poisonous spores” levy a -3 to armour? Why don‟t they just negate armour completely? It‟s S2, and it‟s a dragon. Let‟s give him something.
o Compare glade guard and glade riders to High elf archers, dark elf repeater crossbowmen, and dark riders. I think a point drop of the first two is in order. The S4 is really significant, but the availability of armour and ASF (or hatred and multiple AP shots) seems to balance them out (moving through woods without penalty is nice, but it is usually a trifle). I think these guys are, overall, balanced, and thus they should cost the same.
o Do people think Wild Riders and Tree Kin are worth their points? Tree Kin are the toughest around for their size, but is T5 and M5 worth +10pts versus T4 M6? I feel they‟re pretty close to balanced anyway. Wilde Riders are a tougher call. Heavy fast cavalry. Still feel like they are a very fragile investment of a lot of points (but hey, that‟s Wood Elves).
o Treemen and Way Watchers cost too much. And the watchers should either be more awesome at shooting people (killing blow on a 5 or 6?) or be special, or something. Compare to Shades (who are overpowered, but even toned down, would be a better choice). Compare the Treeman to a giant or something. Strangleroot, Tree Singing, and armour versus the loss of Ld10 (the special attacks versus the normal ones seems overall balanced) does not seem to be worth 75 more points. Maybe 50 more.
o Their magic is surprisingly lack-luster. Tree Singing as a “level 0” spell, to make them parallel to their more-elite kin? And their last spell just seems too hard to cast for too little an effect (sadly, the Hand of Mork is far better). Move it up or down in effect or casting value, I‟d say.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wow. That looks intimidating. If I have more time, I might try to break it down into several more eye-friendly posts.

Oh, and thanks Karon.

I pretty much agree outright with 85% of what you're saying here. You raise some points I never really thought about. Then again I'm lizardmen and our book has very few issues, except for R&F Skinks and a Mazzamundi to a lesser extent.

I disagree with you about the cost of generic weapons across the books, that seems to be the best way to balance out things between core units of various factions. Shifting stats is one way, but adjusting weapon accessibility especially the Spears and Pikes is one way to prevent everyone running Pike/Spear Blocks (admittedly that would make it very accurate to medieval warfare considering the spear has been our favourite before we learnt to stop eating rocks).

Also I'm pretty sure the reason why Tomb King's are as they are now is due to the earlier concept document guide thingy that pretty much said; "Liche's and Princes are simply a Vampire cut in half- two separate parts that can focus on their roles better".

I see what you're sayin', but I think that all different weapon types should cost the same in the hands of an average warrior, not the same in each book. I don't think that every army or every core unit should have every weapon available (a unit of Empire state flail-troops?), but I think seeing units like the Spearmen and Halberdiers condesned into one stat profile with a different array of equipment potential would help. It's a little silly that Dwarfs basically choose between hand weapons (axes and hammers) and great weapons (big axes and hammers).

When it comes to special elite guys, I agree with you completely on their weapons choices. High Elves should pay more for great weapons, and Saurus should probably pay a point more for spears.

I think that Spear and Pikemen blocks should be a viable choice (right now, there is no way I'd ever run clanrats with spears). And even then, they'd be significantly more vulnerable to shooting (in the case of pikes) and close-combat (in the flanks). Even in the front, most of this game's elite cavalry would just weather the storm. Even basic, core Knights Errant in a unit 6 strong against 20 pikemen would only lose this combat-the combat that pikemen are designed to do-by 2, on average. Against Grail, Inner Circle, or Chaos Knights, I think they'd still lose.

But the problem with all of this seems to be the balance between realism and the mechanics of the game.

And yeah, Tomb Kings used to be pretty solid-an extra wound on your fighty characters-I'm just wondering how we can save 'em.

Sandworms?

Thats probably best put in the Legendaries thread.

...I'm not sure if I follow.

Tomb King's with undead sandworms, Dune style....

Ah. Could work. A large target, terror-causer with "it came from below".

But no riders. Skeletons can't walk without rhythm.

Warpsolution wrote:But no riders. Skeletons can't walk without rhythm.

If you walk without rhythm, you never learn.

OMG death worms.

Reminds me of Animal Planets Lost Tapes (cryptozoology Show)

Heres the description from Animal Planet.com

Reported to live in the arid and inhospitable sands of the Southern Gobi Desert in Mongolia, the Death Worm is said to be able to rise from the sand without warning and kill its prey at a great distance by shooting a corrosive, acidic substance into the victim's face. Along with the acidic venom, the Mongolian Death Worm reportedly delivers an electric shock powerful enough to kill a camel. As if the desert itself wasn't dangerous enough!

Sounds like it has as many abilities as an Abomination.

Maybe it is an abomination.

The Skaven uprising is at hand.

This thread is really cool and well thought out. Maybe you could throw out some new ideas now that 8th edition has hit?

holy thread necromancy ratman!

Wow. Yeah, it's a blast from the past. But hey, it's relevant.

Thanks, man. I don't know as much about the different books in 8th as I did in 7th, but when I feel confident about a number of them, I'll jot some things down.

In the future though, I'd suggest sending me (or whoever) a message. I don't care, but the top guys 'round here do frown upon black magic.

Noted. I will try to be more discrete with my powers in the future.