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3 or 4 games in a 1 day GT event
3 Games with 2:15 per game 34% [ 11 ]
4 Games with 2:00 per game 66% [ 21 ]
Total Votes : 32
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Hunter with Harpoon Laucher




Castle Clarkenstein

Given: Assume this is 40k at 1500 points, (which will be used in vegas). Scoring is just battle points. Paint is either absent, or a
separate competition. No comp, no sports. Tournament is one day long.

Topic: Many people have complained that with 32+ people at a tournament, you can't sort out the winner with just 3 games. What do people thing of going to a 4th game? Below I have a couple of sample schedules for reference. Pros: People want to play, more games is better. Helps determine the best player. One bad game, or tie, doesn't necessarily knock you out of the running as easily.
Cons: More of an endurance test. Get home later. Less time between games.

Sample schedules:

3 Games
Reg: 9:00am
Game 1: 10:00am to 12:15am
Game 2: 1:00pm to 3:15 pm
Game 3: 4:00pm to 6:15pm
Awards, Beer


4 Games
Reg: 8:00am
Game 1 9:00am to 11:00am
Game 2: 11:30am to 1:30pm
Game 3: 2:30pm to 4:30pm
Game 4: 5:00pm to 7:00pm
Awards, 2x Beer






This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/04/01 00:51:26


....and lo!.....The Age of Sigmar came to an end when Saint Veetock and his hamster legions smote the false Sigmar and destroyed the bubbleverse and lead the true believers back to the Old World.
 
   
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You'll get initial complaints, but the 4 is easily doable. I can't tell you how many times I've played in a 3 round RTT and then grabbed a pickup game with someone I wanted to play but missed.

Check out my blog at:http://ironchaosbrute.blogspot.com.

Vivano crudelis exitus.

Da Boss wrote:No no, Richard Dawkins arresting the Pope is inherently hilarious. It could only be funnier if when it happens, His Holiness exclaims "Rats, it's the Fuzz! Let's cheese it!" and a high speed Popemobile chase ensues.
 
   
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Fixture of Dakka






The issue with 4 games usually comes down to a few things:

1. Game stores don't open at 8AM pure and simple. They open 10-11am. When you boil it down, you still need the support and 'being open' of the store itself to run the event. Often the event is being run AT the store, not by the store. If the doors are open for tourney stuff, then the store needs to staff the register and monitor the people int he store and take customers.

2. People do travel a distance for tourneys. It is not uncommon for people to travel over an hour to get to a tourney. Unless it is a large multiday tourney where peopel are making travel plans, it just makes it a bit hard for some people to get thier personal lives sorted out for a weekend 1-day tourney. Expect to have people whoa re on the fence and coming a long distance to possibly be unable to attend because of the early/late.

3. Many participants may be kids... Parents don't wait... and what happens is if the kid is not 'top table' they drop out, leave and someone now is missing a game. Hell, this happens in 3 game tourneys already as a kid doesn't tell his parents and they say 'lets go, it is dinner time.'

4. it isn't the game length which is the issue, it is the time needed between games to score/organize/eat/smoke/bs that take up the time. And extra game means an extra break.

5. 4 Games is brutal. I even get punchdrunk a little bit by game 4 and begin to make tactical mistakes... I don't think winning the final game through mistakes due to a tired opponent and not tactical skill is any better than softscores breaking a tie for two top battlepoint scorers. besides, if an event really wants to be 'serious business' for judging true skill and finding the best, it really needs to be 6 games over 2 days.

6. When games wrap up around 5-6, People stay and help clean up and restore the shopkeeps store to working order. When the game lasts till 7, then 30 minutes to tally scores then hand out awards, it is almost past 8 and people are *GONE* leaving like 2 people to help clean up. Shop owners hate that crap.

I am not against 4 games in a day, but I am not sure it 'adds' anything or is a superior format. I think 3 games for single day has risen out of the balance between 'what we can do' vs ' what will people show up for'. The 4 game format impacts attendance and requires more staff which makes it hard to do well.

But this is just my observations of the differences between 3 game and 4 game events.

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Thinking more GT than RTT.
Assume GT or part of a GT. Store has ample staff so opening isn't a problem. Also assume that setup and cleanup is taken care of and not something attendees actually need to help out with. And at a GT, there will be a conspicious lack of kids, because of the requirement of a painted army, and higher than normal cost vs. an RTT. I think points 1, 3, 6 are covered with that.

But you have very good points in 2,4,5.

....and lo!.....The Age of Sigmar came to an end when Saint Veetock and his hamster legions smote the false Sigmar and destroyed the bubbleverse and lead the true believers back to the Old World.
 
   
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GT? You could play 7 games in a weekend that way....

I like that...

Check out my blog at:http://ironchaosbrute.blogspot.com.

Vivano crudelis exitus.

Da Boss wrote:No no, Richard Dawkins arresting the Pope is inherently hilarious. It could only be funnier if when it happens, His Holiness exclaims "Rats, it's the Fuzz! Let's cheese it!" and a high speed Popemobile chase ensues.
 
   
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Feasting on the souls of unworthy opponents

Guys, its worth noting here that Mikhaila *IS* a shop owner, regularly runs GTs and does a good job of it.

He knows his needs for support, hours, timelines, etc.


On-Topic: I'd prefer 4 games.


Off-Topic: Never heard back from you about a display board. =p

   
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Mikhaila, first, a question: I am unsure of what GT vs. RTT means, but if this is a monthly tourament, I would run it like this:

I find it hard to believe that a 4th game will allow you to sort out winners any more easily than 3 games will.

What I suggest, instead, is run 4 man round robins, or "quads" - each quad WILL have a clearly defined winner. Then, keep track of their final win rates, or "score" (wins are ones, losses are 0, "draws" are 1/2's.) In subsequent tournaments, pair together individuals in groups of 4 based on how well they did previously (i.e. all the guys who went 3-0 in one group, all the guys who lost terribly in another, etc). If you get new people, put them in the middle of the pack and see what happens.

As for prizes, things are now complicated since you can't just give one big prize to one guy - but as a dude involved in running tournaments (chess tournaments) myself, for a long time... why do that at all? why not charge dudes 15-20$ each and hand the winner of a quad 40$?

Now, as for ONE big tournament, you'd want to use sections - in chess, we divvy up players according to skill. So, amateur-level players go in one slot and fight for a prize there, "experts" go in another, and "masters-class and above" of somewhere else. In order to do this, you could start up a sort of ladder bracket at your store, so as to gauge what the skill of your player - I don't have a better way to figure out how to gauge player skill for such a system (which WOULD sort the players out and let winners be determined easier)... of course, you just run different sections for different point values; that might work.

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Castle Clarkenstein

Milquetoast Thug wrote:Mikhaila, first, a question: I am unsure of what GT vs. RTT means, but if this is a monthly tourament, I would run it like this:

I find it hard to believe that a 4th game will allow you to sort out winners any more easily than 3 games will.

What I suggest, instead, is run 4 man round robins, or "quads" - each quad WILL have a clearly defined winner. Then, keep track of their final win rates, or "score" (wins are ones, losses are 0, "draws" are 1/2's.) In subsequent tournaments, pair together individuals in groups of 4 based on how well they did previously (i.e. all the guys who went 3-0 in one group, all the guys who lost terribly in another, etc). If you get new people, put them in the middle of the pack and see what happens.

As for prizes, things are now complicated since you can't just give one big prize to one guy - but as a dude involved in running tournaments (chess tournaments) myself, for a long time... why do that at all? why not charge dudes 15-20$ each and hand the winner of a quad 40$?

Now, as for ONE big tournament, you'd want to use sections - in chess, we divvy up players according to skill. So, amateur-level players go in one slot and fight for a prize there, "experts" go in another, and "masters-class and above" of somewhere else. In order to do this, you could start up a sort of ladder bracket at your store, so as to gauge what the skill of your player - I don't have a better way to figure out how to gauge player skill for such a system (which WOULD sort the players out and let winners be determined easier)... of course, you just run different sections for different point values; that might work.


Grand Tourney vs. Rogue Trader Tourney. Fore examples, the typical RTT, (a term GW coined and now generally used to describe one day tournaments held at shops.) has somewhere from 6-24 people. Few shops have that many gaming tables available. A Grand Tournament is usually a large one, two, or three day event, possibly with side events, with Adepticon being the largest. Players will generally travel farther for a GT, the competition level, and skill level, of the players is higher, and generally you must have a fully painted army to play.

Using a system for chess, while interesting, isn't going to work for a GT. First off, they are generally held 1 time each year. Any given year could have large differences in the people attending, with different armies, and maybe even a different rules system. Trying to rank the players in an area could be interesting, but I'll leave that up to someone else that wants that particular headache.

Of the players coming to a GT, maybe 10% will be regulars at my store, and maybe another 40% from stores in the nearby area. Half will be at least 1 hour drive away, with me seeing them only a couple of times a year. Makes ranking, ladder systems, etc fairly useless as a tool for a GT, although it might be a way to run a long term league in a shop. Chess has a lot less variables than Warhammer by many factors, and is much easier to rank the players, since any game of chess you play anywhere is going to use the same rules set, pieces, and board.

The question I'm asking here isn't about how to arrange players in brackets, rankings, or anything else. It's about whether people would like to play 3 games or 4 games at a standard swiss paired 40k tournament. 4 Games will help sort out a winner better, but their are also downsides.

....and lo!.....The Age of Sigmar came to an end when Saint Veetock and his hamster legions smote the false Sigmar and destroyed the bubbleverse and lead the true believers back to the Old World.
 
   
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Getting my broom incase there is shenanigans.

If you have a lot of players, the more games the better.

There is often a few people that are 3-0 at the end of the day, and 4 games would give you a little better separation.

mikhaila wrote:Thinking more GT than RTT.
But you have very good points in 2,4,5.


Let’s take them in order then:

nkelsch wrote:The issue with 4 games usually comes down to a few things:
2. People do travel a distance for tourneys. It is not uncommon for people to travel over an hour to get to a tourney. Unless it is a large multiday tourney where people are making travel plans, it just makes it a bit hard for some people to get thier personal lives sorted out for a weekend 1-day tourney. Expect to have people whoa re on the fence and coming a long distance to possibly be unable to attend because of the early/late.


I would be more inclined to travel to a 4 game RTT than a 3 game. That way you are getting more bang-for-your-buck. There are always going to be people where are going to be unable to attend do to the hours of the tournament if you are playing in a 3 game or a 4 game RTT. If you look at the times, there is really not much difference when they let out. As long as the times are announced ahead of time, then you can make plans accordingly.

nkelsch wrote:4. it isn't the game length which is the issue, it is the time needed between games to score/organize/eat/smoke/bs that take up the time. And extra game means an extra break.

You need 30 minutes between games to tabulate the scores and for a break for the players. That has already been figured into the times. You can also take some time off of the other breaks, and have one longer break for lunch. But most stores have some place to eat nearby.

nkelsch wrote:5. 4 Games is brutal. I even get punchdrunk a little bit by game 4 and begin to make tactical mistakes... I don't think winning the final game through mistakes due to a tired opponent and not tactical skill is any better than softscores breaking a tie for two top battlepoint scorers. besides, if an event really wants to be 'serious business' for judging true skill and finding the best, it really needs to be 6 games over 2 days.

4 games gives a little better separation and it helps out if you get a bad draw. At Adepticon they have a 3 game tournament with 100+ players, and some fought space wolves and Mech IG, and others played softer armies to the top. 4 games lowers the luck factor, and the cream should rise to the top.
As far as playing 4 games in a day, toughen up! I just got done playing 12 games in 3 days. Bolscon is 7 games in 2 days. If you are losing focus swig a red bull. You opponent is just as tired as you are, and if he has better metal acuity than you, then he deserves to win.


 
   
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Castle Clarkenstein

Dashofpepper wrote:
On-Topic: I'd prefer 4 games.
Off-Topic: Never heard back from you about a display board. =p


Layed it out a bit, then the nastiness of monthly order forms took over my life. Usually due first Tuesday of the month, this time they made it a week earlier. I didn't notice until the last week, and did a months inventory in about 6 days.

I'll be getting some stuff done on this coming week probably, and see how it all fits together. Borrowing some raiders from a friends to make sure they fit good.

....and lo!.....The Age of Sigmar came to an end when Saint Veetock and his hamster legions smote the false Sigmar and destroyed the bubbleverse and lead the true believers back to the Old World.
 
   
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Blackmoor wrote:4 games gives a little better separation and it helps out if you get a bad draw. At Adepticon they have a 3 game tournament with 100+ players, and some fought space wolves and Mech IG, and others played softer armies to the top. 4 games lowers the luck factor, and the cream should rise to the top.
As far as playing 4 games in a day, toughen up! I just got done playing 12 games in 3 days. Bolscon is 7 games in 2 days. If you are losing focus swig a red bull. You opponent is just as tired as you are, and if he has better metal acuity than you, then he deserves to win.


Well said.

I would prefer 4 games to 3 games, too.

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Blackmoor wrote:As far as playing 4 games in a day, toughen up! I just got done playing 12 games in 3 days. Bolscon is 7 games in 2 days. If you are losing focus swig a red bull. You opponent is just as tired as you are, and if he has better metal acuity than you, then he deserves to win.

QFT! I'd like to see Iron Man tourneys where you play Saturday, all night and throughout Sunday...

Check out my blog at:http://ironchaosbrute.blogspot.com.

Vivano crudelis exitus.

Da Boss wrote:No no, Richard Dawkins arresting the Pope is inherently hilarious. It could only be funnier if when it happens, His Holiness exclaims "Rats, it's the Fuzz! Let's cheese it!" and a high speed Popemobile chase ensues.
 
   
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HATE Club, East London

For the difference of 15 mins, I'd rather just hurry a little and play 4 games.

   
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Woodbridge, VA

Four games gets my vote.

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www.ironfistleague.com
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Dankhold Troggoth






Shadeglass Maze

I voted for 3... 4 is like a war for me... I'm too tired by the last game to think clearly, even with just 3...
   
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Manchester, NH

If I'm coming from 1-3hrs away, for a one day event, 3 is usually better, as it allows be to realistically drive there and back the same day.

As part of a multi-day event, or coming from farther or closer (like up here in NH), having more games is more interesting and preferable. 2hrs v. 2:15 isn't a big difference at the 1500pt level. I don't like 2hrs for larger games, but for 1500 it should be fine.

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Chicago, IL

How many players are you expecting for the event? If you are attracting 100 + players there does not seem to be enough time between rounds in the 4 game set up. With just half an hour between rounds, the organizers will be pressed to collect paper work, enter results, post tables and have people playing within 30 minutes. If this is part of a larger event - add 1 more hour to the schedule and run from 9am to 8pm.

If you are looking at Adepticon, both the Friday and Saturday events run 4 games. Sunday runs 3 games because clean up needs to start around 4:00 pm.

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Mannahnin wrote:If I'm coming from 1-3hrs away, for a one day event, 3 is usually better, as it allows be to realistically drive there and back the same day.

As part of a multi-day event, or coming from farther or closer (like up here in NH), having more games is more interesting and preferable. 2hrs v. 2:15 isn't a big difference at the 1500pt level. I don't like 2hrs for larger games, but for 1500 it should be fine.


totally agreed with this.. and plssss do it on a weekend I am not at drill plsssss( I will bring my pre-heresy(even though it's not painted..thats love yo)).

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RanTheCid wrote:How many players are you expecting for the event? If you are attracting 100 + players there does not seem to be enough time between rounds in the 4 game set up. With just half an hour between rounds, the organizers will be pressed to collect paper work, enter results, post tables and have people playing within 30 minutes. If this is part of a larger event - add 1 more hour to the schedule and run from 9am to 8pm.

If you are looking at Adepticon, both the Friday and Saturday events run 4 games. Sunday runs 3 games because clean up needs to start around 4:00 pm.


1/2 collecting hypothetical data, since I've got a couple of dozen events to run this coming year, from 1 day RTT style to 3 day GT. 1/2 looking at adding a 32 person 40k event to an existing Fantasy Battle GT we have coming up on July 24/25.

Having a dedicated gaming space that's separate from the store means we can run a lot more events than normal, and have to, to pay the rent on it.

....and lo!.....The Age of Sigmar came to an end when Saint Veetock and his hamster legions smote the false Sigmar and destroyed the bubbleverse and lead the true believers back to the Old World.
 
   
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4; give people their money's worth.
   
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Pasadena, CA

i chose 4. I remember playing in the early GT days and we played 4 games on the first day. Wasn't too bad.

   
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Steelcity

Ill play 7 rounds in one day if it means Im the last one standing and can collect my 'ard boyz prize again.. Live for today because you can pass out tommorrow!

The time constraint really is the biggest deal I see.. If you got 50 people, that means you could potentially have 8 or so people undefeated at the end which is what happens in large 3 round tournaments

Basically it comes down to noob stomps over skill

Here is my theory on 3 game vs 4 games.. What is the prize? High cash equivalent prizes means I have a strong preference for 4 games to sort out who deserves the prize

If the prize is relatively small and the tournament is more designed just to get people to play then 3 games is also fine..

Generally higher attendance = higher prize so there is a direct correlation (imo) in tournament size vs # of games needed. If you're expecting a big turn out then Id recommend 4 games

I wish philly wasnt so far from pittsburgh despite being in the same state.. Legions is one of the biggest stores in the country yet has awful tournament turnouts.. need you to teach them how to do it

edit - oh also one thing to consider.. I imagine everyone who wants 4 games would STILL go to a 3 game tournament.. Yet people who only want to play 3 games might not go to a 4 game.. Something to consider

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/04/02 03:08:39


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Castle Clarkenstein

I wish philly wasnt so far from pittsburgh despite being in the same state.. Legions is one of the biggest stores in the country yet has awful tournament turnouts.. need you to teach them how to do it

Still figuring it out myself.)

Yeah, Pittsburgh is a haul, I used to drive it once or twice a year to go out to SCA events up at Coopers Lake, especially for Pennsic Wars. 2 hours is easy, 3-4 a bit of work, and 6 hours drives before and after a tournament are just suicide.

....and lo!.....The Age of Sigmar came to an end when Saint Veetock and his hamster legions smote the false Sigmar and destroyed the bubbleverse and lead the true believers back to the Old World.
 
   
 
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