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I noticed on the Adepticon discussion thread that one of the possible changes to Adepticon next year was to not allow FW/IA in the Team tournament. Is there really a big problem with allowing this stuff? Is it really unbalanced? Admittantly I like FW. I even brought a Deathstorm drop pod in my list. I was just wondering why it might not be allowed.

Keep in mind this is solely my opinion.

Generally speak the FW/IA stuff isn’t anymore or less balanced than your run of the mill codex stuff. Plenty of wonky units and combos allowed from straight codex builds. People like to scream that they are not official GW units or rules but really what does that mean? Warwick has been around the studio for more years than most of the current designers and Rick Priestly is now involved in FW .. and you don’t get a more veteran GW guy now do you? FW also has a track record of updating their rules and taking input from the community. A big plus.

But the recent development however is accessibility. FW was once readily available from the US bunkers. US Bunkers are no longer stocking FW items. This moves FW to pretty much a special order or direct order only item.

While I myself enjoy IA/FW included and I think the vast majority of FW items can be perfectly fine. It can be a pretty steep learning curve to someone that is not overly familiar with the units or rules. There of course always exist one or two units that are “to good” and can create issues. This becomes more problematic is when these units are replicated multiple times.

So the future for FW items in the TT .. is under consideration. Things might stay the way they are, they might be removed, or they might be restricted to some sort of 0-1 selection per team. Matters for us to review this year.

Cheers

Hank Edley

I am unsure exactly how the TT rules work, so this may be entirely off-base, but how would you like to see:
SM:
Libby, GoI, Null Zone
3 Ironclads, Lucius Pods
Stuff
Nids:
Swarmlord, 3 Guards
Prime, Swords
Stuff

Libby attaches to Swarm, Guards, and Prime, Gates 24" upfield, 3 Ironclads drop and assault turn 1. Swarmlord joins the fun Turn 2.

Iron Clad or Furioso Dreadnought's that can assault out of drop pods the turn they arrive. Nuff said

I think another couple of valid reasons for removing FW/IA units from the Team Tournament are:

1. The Team Tournament survey generally was in favor, or at least on the fence, about the inclusion of said units in the event.

2. From an organizers viewpoint: with 110 teams involved, removing these units from the game logistically makes running the event easier. There are less weird interactions, rules questions, chances for mistakes in list building...

The argument of accessibility is also a valid one as Hank pointed out. You wouldstill be able to use FW models to represent units in your codex (like the Championships), just not actual unit rules.

Iron_Chaos_Brute wrote:Libby attaches to Swarm, Guards, and Prime, Gates 24" upfield, 3 Ironclads drop and assault turn 1. Swarmlord joins the fun Turn 2.

At least in response to this, the current TT rules only allow friendly psychic powers etc to effect units from the same codex. So while 2 SM players could Gate eachothers units, you cant Gate a Nid unit because they are different Codex. Much like Eldar cant use Guide on a Sterguard Unit nor can a Sternguard unit take advantage of a unit the Eldar Doomed.

muwhe wrote:While I myself enjoy IA/FW included and I think the vast majority of FW items can be perfectly fine. It can be a pretty steep learning curve to someone that is not overly familiar with the units or rules.

This is, I think, the best reason to consider removing FW stuff - the time it takes to explain what the unit is/does is more profitably used in getting the game under way. If every team that had a Hades Breaching Drill this year had to spend 2 minutes/game explaining what it does, that adds up to a fair chunk of game time "lost" in the event.

Couldn't the same results be obtained my making FW models 0-1? I also understand that some of the units take some explaining. I'm also a purist in the sense that it cannot be a proxy. I spend my money on the actual FW model and not building a proxy. I saw at least 2 armies with proxy FW/GW units. I believe that if you want to use a FW unit then you have to buy it and not build your own. Now that may sound unreasonable but I learned a long time ago that this is not a hobby that can be had on the cheap.

Also, as well as making some units 0-1 you can ban the more over the top units.

Whatever is decided will be fine by me though. I will still enjoy the tournament even if I have to leave my FW toys at home.

I thought it should have been removed years ago. I remember one team taking the automated sentry guns in fourth edition for like 20 points to force target priority tests. Anyone remember the Damocles Rhino from a few years ago? There only needs to be one wonky combo to push someone to the top of the tourney.

I saw soooo many hades breaching drills. A S10 AP1 template (whole template, not just center) that arrives via deepstrike then has a drill to continue to ram other vehicles in subsequent turns. All for the low, low price of 50 pts(!)...

I understand the IA debate and the concerns.

But can anyone name the IA units that have been used in any previous TT winners armies?

Personally I can't think of one Hank.

G

Chimeras w/ autocannons and the cheap troop vehicle things.

Checkmate hobbies had those.

I do not know the other years as we dont have their armylists.

thehod wrote:Chimeras w/ autocannons and the cheap troop vehicle things.

Checkmate hobbies had those.

I do not know the other years as we dont have their armylists.

Yep fought that army in round 3 that year. Each list had a single trojan as their troop choice (4th ed). Every chimera with an auto-cannon turret.

*Shrug*, I don't think explaining the few FW items you might have will take any longer than explaining how mixed-codex armies interact (Or don't). I always viewed the TT as a fun style event that let you play with some unique combos (and resin toys). If the Hades drill is that strong, than simply limit it. I would think a case by case basis would be better than slamming the door shut on the entire FW line.

I was Forgeworld the first year when we won. Count all of me. I think the year those sorry gitz with 4 Bloodthirsters won was a FW/IA unit. I only see that in Apox data sheets now. Then there was that time this guy from south of I-80 convinced the gullable Gladiator judge that the FW Super thirster was a scoring unit. He even had a (fake?) e-mail from Warrick to trick the tourney organizer. But now I digress ......

I've been in favor of dumping the FW items for quite some time. Scrap them from the TT, along with all D weapons in the Gladiator. Then you will be fine.

I forgot about hte autocannon turrets... That was very helpful for IG back then (2007).

G

DarthDiggler wrote:I was Forgeworld the first year when we won. Count all of me. I think the year those sorry gitz with 4 Bloodthirsters won was a FW/IA unit. I only see that in Apox data sheets now. Then there was that time this guy from south of I-80 convinced the gullable Gladiator judge that the FW Super thirster was a scoring unit. He even had a (fake?) e-mail from Warrick to trick the tourney organizer. But now I digress ......

I've been in favor of dumping the FW items for quite some time. Scrap them from the TT, along with all D weapons in the Gladiator. Then you will be fine.

Yeah, those gullible prior Gladiator organizers. Thankfully, the previous organizers set such a low standard that greg and I can sleep through the tournament and still get compliments on how well its run. Anytime anyone asks us a question, its magic 8-ball time.

I'm with Muwhe on this. Imagine if Space Wolves Thunderwolf Cavalry was a Imperial Armor unit exactly as it is in the codex...or if Valkyries as-is were Imperial Armor only. We'd all be saying, did you see how many armies had Thunderwolf Cavalry and/or Valkyries? Man those units are clearly broken and should be banned. Or what if the Hades was in the Imperial Guard codex as-is? Somehow we would just have to suck it up and accept it but now it is the example of why all Imperial Armor units should be excluded from the tournament?

As for 'down-time' caused by explaining rules to your opponents, I'd wager that more time was probably spent by players trying to decipher the mission objectives throughout the rounds then time was spent explaining Imperial Armor unit rules.


I guess IMHO, although I enjoy the competition of the TT, etc, when it comes down to the nitty-gritty I just don't see it as some sort of hyper-competitive event. The best part of it for me is seeing all the crazy cool armies people put together for it, and part of that is seeing cool Forgeworld models that otherwise people might not bother to put their money down to get.

For example, next year we were considering taking Tau again and thinking about buying those new XV-9 Battlesuits. Could we buy and use those models for regular crisis suits in our army? Perhaps, but the weapons wouldn't be WYSIWYG, and we already bought the FW crisis suits, so replacing them with other 'counts-as' Forgeworld models would just be ridiculous. Yes, the fact that their rules are pretty awesome is a major driving factor, but here's the simple truth:

If those rules aren't allowed in the team tournament next year then we won't have those models in our army. And those models are awesome. At the end of the day 95% of other tournaments don't allow IA rules, so what I love about Adepticon is that you *do* get to see those models in action. Not everyone gets to play Apocalypse games on a regular basis or doesn't necessarily get a chance to use their Forgeworld items so why not have an event that allows them?

I think keeping the Championships IA free is a good compromise. If people HATE Imperial Armor rules they have at least one event at Adepticon that they can play 40K in and not worry about it. But in both the Team Tourney and the Gladiator it is always a chance to see units in tournaments that you just don't get to use anywhere else, and I'm off the mind that there should be as many different types of tournaments on the circuit as possible, and having Adepticon allow Forgeworld in certain events seems fine to me and is also a chance to see crazy cool models you wouldn't otherwise witness.

I can see the reasoning for wanting to limit models with some crazy special rules or unusual weapons, but there are plenty of pretty normal and benign models out there.

For example, the Land Speeder tempest has very almost nothing special about it, other than an AA mount.

I wonder how hard it would be for whoever is responsible for organizing the Adepticon TT to make a brief Errata that modifies some FW rules to a more acceptable standard.

Hod with the ancient historical knowledge of past AdeptiCon TT champions.

1 instance.

Trojans and a few autocannon turrets? For the win.

Game breaking and unstoppable for sure.

Checkmate Hobbies .. guys you still should have stuck with the multilasers and saved the 5 pts per Chimera honestly. : )

Anyways .. it will as with most years be an interesting discussion and off season.

Darth .. you still bitter over your IW Demon Prince rolling snakes in our one man-o to man-o game? My dice btw forgive you for dumping them down your pants but have gone unused since for obvious reasons.

I'll have to agree with Ozy. The Hades breaching drill was pretty rediculous.

Anyway, Yak, I'll have to disagree. Normal codex units are normal codex units, and the information on them is pretty easily available, since they are normal codex in normal distribution.

The FW/IA stuff, however, is not. How many of us actually have all the FW books? Some of the FW units have weird complex rules, and weird interactions with the parent army lists. (The Hades, for example, is Krieg only, and engineers are the only ones that can use the tunnel, however, that wasn't how it was played over the weekend.)

My point is, alot of these zanier FW items are being unveiled to players for the first time usually at deployment, and then they have to fumble around with rules, and it just feels like a "gotcha" rather than a pleasant challenge from your opponents. It's not like I can read up on Lucius drop pods or Hades drills at my local LGS.

Sure. There is definitely a learning curve but honestly the times I have played against teams with FW units. It forces me to take a few minutes, and put my head around what the armies are fully capable of doing. Something folks should be doing in every game but few do. There are plenty of “gotcha” codex interactions in the TT as well that unless you spend some time looking over the army lists are going to be a rude awakening. ( Disclaimer … I don’t play anymore in the TT and haven’t for a number of years now )

I mean does it take a rocket scientist to figure out that you don’t want to be on the table when the Hades or the Lucius pattern dreads drop? So it might be a good idea to put your army into reserve and if possible give them the 1st turn? If you do have to deploy spread out hug the table edges and force some dangerous scatter rolls? 50pts seems pretty cheap but if they don’t have anything on the table or even anything worth targeting when they arrive it is still a waste of points. What does your opponents army want to do and what do we need to do to negate what makes those armies effective?
Those are the kind of choices that “good” teams make and separate frankly the men from the boys.

whitedragon wrote:I'll have to agree with Ozy. The Hades breaching drill was pretty rediculous.

Yeah, I think I may have had this conversation in another thread.

I wasn't at Adepticon, but I agree that it's great that there is a tournament that allows IA when most don't. But problems occur when they bend even the IA rules. The Hades seems to be a good example. According to the rules, it's ONLY useable by a Imperial Guard Siege Army (so 4ed rules, no orders etc...), and the only models that can follow it out of the tunnel are Engineer units. If you change the tournament rules to allow it in any IG army, you give it a massive boost that it was never meant to have, and skew the game. If you want to include a Hades, you should play using the Siege Regiment list.

I think IA is great, but there are restrictions built into many of the units. By removing these restrictions, you make some units overpowered. Keep IA, but don't change the rules for each tournament.

Like I said previously my only FW unit was my Deathstorm drop pod. It fit in my army because I ran an all drop pod army. It fit the fluff. I don't think any of my opponents had a problem with it. They either spread out or just came on as reserves. And its special rule allowed it to be an equal opportunity offender. It hit my units as well as my opponents. I love the landraider versions from FW. I think the Helios and Prometheus are pretty cool. But I don't think that they could be considered over the top.

I agree with the previous posters that said that Adepticon being one of the tournaments to allow FW/IA is what makes it one of the most unique and fun tournaments around.

I'd say it's entirely unbalancing for one reason.

Distribution of the new and shiney things in IA books is entirely biased by army type. Forgeworld don't do a balanced number of tanks and gizmos for all armies.

Poor old necrons....

muwhe wrote:Hod with the ancient historical knowledge of past AdeptiCon TT champions.

1 instance.

I am a historian afterall. You asked for a TT champ w/ IA

the TT is more of a fun event and I dont mind the IA as much as I used to. Besides there are worse combos than some of the IA. Like Psyker battle squads and callidus or Jaws + Lash.

muwhe wrote:Checkmate Hobbies .. guys you still should have stuck with the multilasers and saved the 5 pts per Chimera honestly. : )

I wish we had the Autocannon turrets this year.

Multilasers only this year made me a sad panda

ArbitorIan wrote:
I wasn't at Adepticon, but I agree that it's great that there is a tournament that allows IA when most don't. But problems occur when they bend even the IA rules. The Hades seems to be a good example. According to the rules, it's ONLY useable by a Imperial Guard Siege Army (so 4ed rules, no orders etc...), and the only models that can follow it out of the tunnel are Engineer units. If you change the tournament rules to allow it in any IG army, you give it a massive boost that it was never meant to have, and skew the game. If you want to include a Hades, you should play using the Siege Regiment list.

I think IA is great, but there are restrictions built into many of the units. By removing these restrictions, you make some units overpowered. Keep IA, but don't change the rules for each tournament.

whitedragon wrote:

The FW/IA stuff, however, is not. How many of us actually have all the FW books? Some of the FW units have weird complex rules, and weird interactions with the parent army lists. (The Hades, for example, is Krieg only, and engineers are the only ones that can use the tunnel, however, that wasn't how it was played over the weekend.)

I guess this point could go towards your argument of how difficult it can be to keep up on IA rules, but the Hades drill in Imperial Armor Apocalypse 2 allows all Imperial Guard armies to take it. That's why it was allowed this year when last year it wasn't (although last year the rules for it in IA7 weren't quite as nasty either).

We do require all players who play with Forgeworld items to bring a copy of the rules for the unit with them, so it shouldn't be that big an issue to ask your opponent to see the rules and read over it during their deployment (for example). I guess I could try to make the wording in the Adepticon list of allowed FW/IA items a bit *stronger* to emphasize that you must bring a copy of these rules and have them ready for inspection by your opponent at the start of each game.

I do see your guys' point, I just think there is an upside to having them included as well as a downside, I just think the upside is worth it personally.

muwhe wrote:Hod with the ancient historical knowledge of past AdeptiCon TT champions.

1 instance.

Trojans and a few autocannon turrets? For the win.

We did Best Team Tacticians w/Trojans, Cyclops demo vehicles, and the ever-damned Griffon w/Infernus shells. Does that count?