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beast_gts wrote:
Now Available: Alpha Strike Box Set, Recognition Guide: ilClan Vol. 27, Eris Premium Miniature

Spoiler:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

That's a good looking boxed set. Neat to see them really giving Alpha strike a push.

Now for the value proposition... I realize the new minis are much better than the old boxed set minis, but here's a set that costs significantly more than the last battletech boxed set, for a game that uses more minis per game, yet comes with less than half as many minis. Still a fair deal but you don't even get the full rulebook.
Hmmm....

 Eilif wrote:
Now for the value proposition... I realize the new minis are much better than the old boxed set minis, but here's a set that costs significantly more than the last battletech boxed set, for a game that uses more minis per game, yet comes with less than half as many minis. Still a fair deal but you don't even get the full rulebook.
Hmmm....

Are you referring to the BattleTech Introductory Box Set which is almost a decade old?

 Ghaz wrote:

 Eilif wrote:
Now for the value proposition... I realize the new minis are much better than the old boxed set minis, but here's a set that costs significantly more than the last battletech boxed set, for a game that uses more minis per game, yet comes with less than half as many minis. Still a fair deal but you don't even get the full rulebook.
Hmmm....

Are you referring to the BattleTech Introductory Box Set which is almost a decade old?

And had far inferior minis. Not a fair comparison to me.

 Eilif wrote:
Now for the value proposition... I realize the new minis are much better than the old boxed set minis, but here's a set that costs significantly more than the last battletech boxed set, for a game that uses more minis per game, yet comes with less than half as many minis. Still a fair deal but you don't even get the full rulebook.
Hmmm....

Still, it comes with more than any other boxset of the new plastics era. AGoAC came with 8 for $60. Clan Invasion had 7 for $50.

The old Introductory boxes have ridiculously small and poor quality models when compared to what is available with these new ones.

For some examples:




Heck, I have used those old models as Protomech proxies more than actual battlemechs, and most of them fit in that size bracket better.

And remember that it comes with 15 buildings and lots of punch-out trees. I kind of think the value is there just for the printer ink I save not printing out that many buildings, on top of the minis included. Especially as places online have it for a good discount.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
And remember that it comes with 15 buildings and lots of punch-out trees. I kind of think the value is there just for the printer ink I save not printing out that many buildings, on top of the minis included. Especially as places online have it for a good discount.

And still only 2 dice . Sorry, I watched a Youtube video the other day and it was on the Battletech: Clan Invasion box and they said the one bad thing about the box was not having enough dice to reasonably play the game. I laughed so hard. Seriously any sort of gamer is going to have dice. He should have complained that there wasn't a Dry erase marker in the box more than extra dice.

sorry for the tangent

Should be BattleTech the dice app, where you can choose dice in the 10-60 ton range before rolling.

From Twitter at PAX Unplugged:

Again, super cool art! The cover for the upcoming Alternate Eras reprint looms over a demo table.
I keep wondering what battle it is, I gotta remember to ask someone later

We did something a bit silly in our games tonight.

one of our clan players is obsessed with light and medium clan mechs...he claims he is not an ice hellion but i wonder sometimes....


We did a standard quick game of 1.3/1 so 2 IS lances VS 1 clan star. and we decided to indulge him in his favorite style.

He brought-
.cauldron born
.X2 vapor eagle
.conjuror
.vixen

We countered with-

lance 1 kurita
.jenner
.komodo
.raijin
.wolverine

lance 2-steiner
.nighthawk
.razorback
.valkyrie
.nightsky

The fight was pretty brutal and we ended up fighting to a standoff.
the last steiner mech to fall was the valkyrie

the kurita side still had the wolverine in the fight

The clan side it was the vixen and one vapor eagle.

 aphyon wrote:
one of our clan players is obsessed with light and medium clan mechs...he claims he is not an ice hellion but i wonder sometimes....

Could be one of the Warbear's warriors . From page 42 of the IlClan sourcebook:

Tactical Response Star: In special circumstances, the TRC would split off a Tactical Response Star: a reinforced six-Point Star consisting of two teams of three light, fast ’Mechs. TRSs were specifically trained for countering superheavy ’Mechs. Each team within the TRS would attack a superheavy together by circling the target and ensuring that while the superheavy’s gunner had to track two fast-moving targets in their forward view, at least one member of the team would always be at the slow-moving target’s rear and able to exploit the thinner rear armor

well that would work.....except we usually never play past 3067 so Ilclan isn't a thing.

So as not to clog up the thread in general with a very BTech-specific discussion:

 aphyon wrote:
I think the tanks were custom jobs they used the demolishers as proxies
Many of the guys like using BV2. while i understand it provides a good framework for mismatched numbers. i prefer to use the basic fixed pilot skills for clan/IS and the 1/1 for same sides or the IS/clan fights of 1.3 to 1 conversion so you can just bring whatever you enjoy playing. rather it be lance on lance, star on star, or 2 lances VS 1 star. i find BV mostly pointless because the crit system exists and i also play with forced withdrawl/safecon rules.

I'm with you on this.

BV I use when I'm looking for relative or broad comparisons, but I'd never use it like I use points in 40k. There are many things that jack battle values up way higher than you'd expect (throw something like a TSEMP on a 'Mech and watch the BV rocket! ). I have actually gone out of my way to design high BV 'Mechs that I'd never field because they're just full of mismatched-but-high-BV equipment/weapons. And there are really solid 'Mechs in the game that have tiny BVs because they don't have obscure tech of unusual weapons.

It's a useful tool - but it's not a balancer like points are in 40k (putting aside 40k's own problems with points).

I agree it has a place. it can be a great framework for an event, or for mix matched units like bringing hordes of infantry against mechs etc... but in most games i look at what my opponent is bringing and i try to come up with something similar.

It is also very easy to abuse. i can't remember what the BV was for the force but the other players were putting together a lance sized force and to prove a point i ran the numbers and i could bring an entire trinary of Shamash clan hovers with a quad er small turret with 3/4 pilots for the cost of their 4 or 5 mechs.

One time i told a new guy to bring a lance of whatever he wanted....he decided to go all Steiner scout squad on me and brought 4 assaults with lots of gauss etc..

i countered with a thematic kurita C3 fast heavy lance. nothing in my force ever had less than a 3+ move mod (except the shugenja that was running the master but he was way, way, in the back. he basically gave up because he couldn't hit anything as i plinked away at him.

It is just like the game above. he really likes the vapor eagle and conjuror. so, we put together 2 lances of lights and mediums and it was a close fight that could have gone either way and BV was never a consideration.

I think part of the reason why BV isn't the be-all and end-all is that BTech is inherently unbalanced.

There are units and weapons that are just straight up better than other things. Clans don't have to trade anything off to get their power - they're just more powerful. Full stop.

And I wouldn't have it any other way.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It's a useful tool - but it's not a balancer like points are in 40k (putting aside 40k's own problems with points).

Actually I think they are quite comparable, and for the same reason. They are meant to be a balancing tool, but a lot of the specific price points are as much WAG as trying to be calculated concepts (though, I think BV has a little more calculation than WAG, but I'm rather biased against GW).

You say Clan doesn't trade for anything? In BV, they most assuredly do pay where they get huge discounts in firepower/tonnage ratios. Energy weapons hit harder and farther out, but the heavier ones always provide weight discounts that go to installing something else which BV is needed to pay for. Same applies for the Ballistics. And that's not even considering the general concept that pilot modification adds.

Trade as in give anything up.

I think the real difference when comparing things like BV for 40K points is that the scale is completely different as well as there not being a comparable critical system. as a skirmish game with only 4 or 5 models for an entire army, hitting the head with a 12+ points of damage weapon and taking out the pilot and the entire mech. or by comparison a critical torso hit that takes out the cockpit, gyro, engine or ammunition (via explosion) completely negates the BV system.

It doesn't matter how many BV you spent upgrading the pilot or the mech.

Coming this Friday...

 aphyon wrote:
I think the real difference when comparing things like BV for 40K points is that the scale is completely different as well as there not being a comparable critical system. as a skirmish game with only 4 or 5 models for an entire army, hitting the head with a 12+ points of damage weapon and taking out the pilot and the entire mech. or by comparison a critical torso hit that takes out the cockpit, gyro, engine or ammunition (via explosion) completely negates the BV system.

It doesn't matter how many BV you spent upgrading the pilot or the mech.

Someone forgot about how Armor Value worked. Of course, GW still has multi-Damage rolls to replace all that, too.

 Charistoph wrote:

 aphyon wrote:
I think the real difference when comparing things like BV for 40K points is that the scale is completely different as well as there not being a comparable critical system. as a skirmish game with only 4 or 5 models for an entire army, hitting the head with a 12+ points of damage weapon and taking out the pilot and the entire mech. or by comparison a critical torso hit that takes out the cockpit, gyro, engine or ammunition (via explosion) completely negates the BV system.

It doesn't matter how many BV you spent upgrading the pilot or the mech.

Someone forgot about how Armor Value worked. Of course, GW still has multi-Damage rolls to replace all that, too.

No i think i pretty well covered that already, it is a matter of scale. losing a rhino to a pen 5+ isn't the same as decapping a pilot in a mech you spent hundreds of BV to upgrade to an elite skill level. the other balance factor is already there- star V star/lance V lance or 2 lances V 1 star. in 20 years it has never proven to be unbalanced without resorting to BV.

 aphyon wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

 aphyon wrote:
I think the real difference when comparing things like BV for 40K points is that the scale is completely different as well as there not being a comparable critical system. as a skirmish game with only 4 or 5 models for an entire army, hitting the head with a 12+ points of damage weapon and taking out the pilot and the entire mech. or by comparison a critical torso hit that takes out the cockpit, gyro, engine or ammunition (via explosion) completely negates the BV system.

It doesn't matter how many BV you spent upgrading the pilot or the mech.

Someone forgot about how Armor Value worked. Of course, GW still has multi-Damage rolls to replace all that, too.

No i think i pretty well covered that already, it is a matter of scale. losing a rhino to a pen 5+ isn't the same as decapping a pilot in a mech you spent hundreds of BV to upgrade to an elite skill level. the other balance factor is already there- star V star/lance V lance or 2 lances V 1 star. in 20 years it has never proven to be unbalanced without resorting to BV.

A Rhino, no. That's like a Stinger (which I headcapped with a Large Laser snapshot once). A Land Raider or Leman Russ, though? Not cheap.

And no, Lance v Lance is not inherently balanced. If I have a Lance of Lights and you have a Lance of Heavies, it's not as much of a contest. 2 Lances of Introtech will have a hard time against a Star. Usually you're looking at a full Company of 3 Lances to have a chance. Unless they're Ice Hellions, of course.

I really want to do a Snord's Irregulars company, so here's hoping this comes out in plastic soon...

 Ghaz wrote:
I really want to do a Snord's Irregulars company, so here's hoping this comes out in plastic soon...

Same. I have a metal one built already for my Snord company but it's far enough down the paint queue that maybe we'll get news about the plastic by then...

 Charistoph wrote:

 aphyon wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

 aphyon wrote:
I think the real difference when comparing things like BV for 40K points is that the scale is completely different as well as there not being a comparable critical system. as a skirmish game with only 4 or 5 models for an entire army, hitting the head with a 12+ points of damage weapon and taking out the pilot and the entire mech. or by comparison a critical torso hit that takes out the cockpit, gyro, engine or ammunition (via explosion) completely negates the BV system.

It doesn't matter how many BV you spent upgrading the pilot or the mech.

Someone forgot about how Armor Value worked. Of course, GW still has multi-Damage rolls to replace all that, too.

No i think i pretty well covered that already, it is a matter of scale. losing a rhino to a pen 5+ isn't the same as decapping a pilot in a mech you spent hundreds of BV to upgrade to an elite skill level. the other balance factor is already there- star V star/lance V lance or 2 lances V 1 star. in 20 years it has never proven to be unbalanced without resorting to BV.

A Rhino, no. That's like a Stinger (which I headcapped with a Large Laser snapshot once). A Land Raider or Leman Russ, though? Not cheap.

And no, Lance v Lance is not inherently balanced. If I have a Lance of Lights and you have a Lance of Heavies, it's not as much of a contest. 2 Lances of Introtech will have a hard time against a Star. Usually you're looking at a full Company of 3 Lances to have a chance. Unless they're Ice Hellions, of course.

you are arguing for mismatched numbers again, i already said BV can work for that.


when playing the 1 v 1 you also have to not be an obnoxious player. if you are playing succession war era VS clan invasion...of course you will likely lose that matchup without some amazing crit rolls as the game and lore has designed it to be that way. however, if you notice the batreps i post up using this simple system, none of them are unbalanced and BV is never used. if you run a heavy lance and i also run a heavy lance but decide to replace one of my heavy mechs with a light. it does not skew victory one way or the other especially if you are playing era specific.

That last game i posted was 3067 with the clans running 1 light, 3 mediums and a heavy VS a lance of 3 lights and a medium and a lance of 3 mediums and a light. at the end there was an IS medium VS a clan medium and light left on the table. it was a very close game.

the clan honor duel game i ran in july i also posted, my blood spirits VS cloud cobra were actually outclassed but still pulled off a close victory. i ran 2 assaults and 3 mediums and he ran 2 assaults and 3 heavies.

For those who have been looking for Salvage Boxes, from the BattleTech Forums:

Cubby wrote:The Salvage Boxes are out, have been reprinted, and should be on a ship soon.

 aphyon wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

 aphyon wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

 aphyon wrote:
I think the real difference when comparing things like BV for 40K points is that the scale is completely different as well as there not being a comparable critical system. as a skirmish game with only 4 or 5 models for an entire army, hitting the head with a 12+ points of damage weapon and taking out the pilot and the entire mech. or by comparison a critical torso hit that takes out the cockpit, gyro, engine or ammunition (via explosion) completely negates the BV system.

It doesn't matter how many BV you spent upgrading the pilot or the mech.

Someone forgot about how Armor Value worked. Of course, GW still has multi-Damage rolls to replace all that, too.

No i think i pretty well covered that already, it is a matter of scale. losing a rhino to a pen 5+ isn't the same as decapping a pilot in a mech you spent hundreds of BV to upgrade to an elite skill level. the other balance factor is already there- star V star/lance V lance or 2 lances V 1 star. in 20 years it has never proven to be unbalanced without resorting to BV.

A Rhino, no. That's like a Stinger (which I headcapped with a Large Laser snapshot once). A Land Raider or Leman Russ, though? Not cheap.

And no, Lance v Lance is not inherently balanced. If I have a Lance of Lights and you have a Lance of Heavies, it's not as much of a contest. 2 Lances of Introtech will have a hard time against a Star. Usually you're looking at a full Company of 3 Lances to have a chance. Unless they're Ice Hellions, of course.

you are arguing for mismatched numbers again, i already said BV can work for that.

Yes, because that was the point. Someone complained how much better GW Points were better than BV. I said they were both wonky because there was a lot of WAG. And then the first quote above was concerned about the Crit system.

Of course, Armor Value did have a Crit system for a very long time, with zero health capacity at all. Land Raiders and Leman Russes were just devils to kill. Then they (very poorly) added Hull Points, but kept the Crit system. So I'm pointing that out. While a Stinger is still "hundreds of BV", it's impact on a battle will probably be about the same as a Rhino. Meanwhile, the Land Raider or Leman Russ takes up a much higher proportion of your force's points that it's more like the equivalent of an Assault.

 aphyon wrote:
when playing the 1 v 1 you also have to not be an obnoxious player.

Redundant statement as that's pretty much required no matter what list development system you use.

Either way you look at it, though, if one side is running IS tech and the other is running Clan tech, there is going to be some imbalance, be it numbers, BV, or tonnage. I think BV is easier to track because it allows someone who is new to not need to know if it's Clan or Inner Sphere, and can run a mixed unit.

If one side is running IS tech and the other side is running Clan tech there's going to be a lot of imbalance. And there should be.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
If one side is running IS tech and the other side is running Clan tech there's going to be a lot of imbalance. And there should be.

Hence the official 2 lance VS 1 star conversion with standard pilots. the IS have numbers the clans have superior equipment/pilots. in over 20 years of never using BV, it hasn't been a problem in hundreds of games.

I'm looking for a little help designing a scenario for a club game in March.

I've got a Merc company that I'd like to go up against a Kuritan force in 3039.

The mercs have a company of three lances:

Battlemaster
Awesome
Rifleman
Catapult

Warhammer
Thunderbolt
Shadow Hawk
Wolverine

Phoenix Hawk
Wasp
Commando
Locust

I'm looking for a decent Kuritan force from the IS Lance Packs. I figure the Support Lance pack and the Strike Lance packs would work, as long as I swap the Wolfound for something else (maybe one of the mechs from the new 2 player starter set). But I don't know what third Lance pack to add to balance out the Kuritans.

 aphyon wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
If one side is running IS tech and the other side is running Clan tech there's going to be a lot of imbalance. And there should be.

Hence the official 2 lance VS 1 star conversion with standard pilots. the IS have numbers the clans have superior equipment/pilots. in over 20 years of never using BV, it hasn't been a problem in hundreds of games.

And with BV, that usually works out, though the numbers won't be exactly the same. Either the IS units will have 2-3 more models on their line up, the units will outweigh the Clanners, or both.

But again, a lot depends on how those 2 Lances are filled out, too. 12 Introtech Stingers won't be very effective against a Star of Hellions. I doubt even a Company of Introtech Wolfhounds would be as effective against a Star of Hellions. Heck, even 8 Stingers from a later TRO than 3025/Succession Wars won't be very effective against a Star of Hellions, and while 8 Wolfhounds might have a chance, they'd still be struggling.

It's not uncommon when I make lists with BV, I'll have a lighter Clan force of 4 (one of each weight class), while the Inner Sphere force will be 5-6 with the extras being in Heavies and Mediums. If I went for a lighter IS force, the number difference would increase.