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Hello! I've been lurking this place through my friends account, and I liked what I saw/see now. You guys have actually been helpful to him! Which is what I'm seeking now :3 I'm a die hard fan of chaos mainly undivided. I've ran this army a little under 10 times and it's won most of the annihilation matches but ties up in the objectives. I was wondering if there was anything I can do with this list to improve survivability.

HQ
----------------------------
Daemon Prince
MoS
LoS
Wings
----------------------------
TROOPS
----------------------------
Khorne Bezerker(10)
Skull Champ
Power Fist
Rhino
Combi Melta
----------------------------
TROOPS
----------------------------
Noise Marines(10)
Sonic Blasters
Blast Master
Rhino
Combi Melta
----------------------------
HEAVY SUPPORT
----------------------------
Obliterators(3)
----------------------------
FAST ATTACK
----------------------------
Raptors(10)
Champ
Power Fist
MoK
Meltagun(2)
----------------------------
HEAVY SUPPORT
----------------------------
Havocs(5)
Lascannons(4)
Champ
Power Weapons

Hi and welcome to Dakka. First rule for army lists is please do not list individual points. That's against forum rules.
A proper example would be:

Daemon Prince - 155
MoS, LoS, Wings

Secondly, the <><><><><> hurts my eyes

HQ: Lash Princes are a great HQ choice. "255 Princes" are also a good option

Troops: KBs look properly kit'd out.
Noise Marines with 9 blasters will probably be frowned upon by others, but I see the logic, and like the choice. There is no combi-melta available for NMs.

Heavy Support: Oblits are great. Predators and Defilers are also other great options.
Havocs. Generally considered best when used for autocannon spam. Lascannons are OK. Champ and Power Fist is not a good way to spend points though.

Fast Attack: Lots of people here rip Raptors, but they have their uses. MoK seems an unnecessary waste of points to me though.

Well I guess the way to learn is to screw up, and read the rules I guess XD But thanks for the early suggestions. I'll remedy the point values.

Secondly the <><><><> line is because I use open office, and creating lines in that are a pain in the butt, because you can't delete them to my knowledge and I just copy and paste. But I'll keep that in mind for future reference.

No worries. The first mistake (listing individual point costs) is made very often around here

Upon further inspection I have found that I had been using the wrong point cost for the lascannons, it appears that I saw the word cannon and replaced the point values for the lascannon and autocannon this entire time that I've played that list, and it was illegal, oh well. At least they were friendly games.

I came across this mistake of mine looking for the point value of the autocannons. Oh and what's a 255 demon prince?

I honestly like the raptors with mark of khorne a lot, but they just need to be fielded in a larger number to fully make use of it. I don't use any myself personally though.

I like your troop choice in special troops. But your Noise Marines are getting very expensive, and 20 MEQs is barely minimum for 1500 point lists. This is also most likely the reason you have trouble with objective based matches?

I know Devastators work really good with spamming of other weapons, but if your looking for Lascannons from something, your x3 Oblits should handle. Save all the points you can reformatting them, or just exchange your HVY choice completely for something else. I might be off, but your Havoks are running like 250 points ish.

Its 260 for duel preds with sponson lascannons if your looking to keep the four lascannon shots. And those two preds will take a lot of heat off your rhinos (they won't be the only tanks in the army anymore).

Just an idea. IMO You need a little bit more troops, and your havoks are getting extremely expensive for 5 wounds and 1 shot weapons. Your only tanks are Rhinos as well, so enemies that show up with half as much anti-tank as you....You're looking at at least 3-4 lascannon equivalents aiming at your rhinos per turn.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think you should just add more CSM x10 and give them heavy weaponry. maybe a Missile Launcher and a Meltagun? You could just field them on foot.

I'll put up a revised list hopefully tomorrow ^.^

Havocs should really not have lascannons in this edition. They are meant to take either special weapons + rhino or autocannons or missile launchers or a mix of ac+ml. Lascannons are just too expensive and not nearly as effective as they were in previous editions on a havoc. Predators on the other hand are a bit better mounts for las if you think you need them. If the main purpose you're using the oblits for is a lascannon you should skip them as well.

I personally run a squad of 5 havocs with 4x autocannons and they are excellent at destroying light vehicles and anything inside them for the price of 2 oblits (they provide +1 wound,4x the str7 shots, better mobility, and don't fear instant death).

You really should not need a champ or power weapon on the havoc squad. It just makes them more expensive and anything a power weapon could kill their base csm statline + weapons can kill. If you were running them with SW and a rhino you might do a champ /w pf and iocg , but I prefer to use them as long range support.

Can't wait to see the new list ^^

I'll bring up the list and working on it now.

The reason for the obliterators are mainly for the multi meltas, I usually ds them into the tank line, and start my tanking hunting with them and the raptors. But I can totally see the point on the Havoc's. I'm going to be giving them the autocannons I think. Might even just take them out and add 2 preds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I am also working on another list but will keep it here, another 1500 pt one. Here is list A
HQ
----------------------------
Daemon Prince
MoS
LoS
Wings
----------------------------
TROOPS
----------------------------
Khorne Bezerker(10)
Skull Champ
Rhino
Combi Melta
----------------------------
TROOPS
Noise Marines(10)
Sonic Blasters
Blast Master
Rhino
Combi Melta
----------------------------
HEAVY SUPPORT
----------------------------
Obliterators(3)
----------------------------
FAST ATTACK
----------------------------
Raptors(10)
Champ
Power Fist
Meltagun(2)
----------------------------
HEAVY SUPPORT
----------------------------
Chaos Predator
Sponson lascannons
----------------------------
HEAVY SUPPORT
----------------------------
Chaos Predator
Sponson lascannons

So here's list B, I was more or less thinking of the autocannon shots with the havocs, but since I removed them I was also concerned with survivability and being most point efficient with troops. The greater daemon was for kicks, I fielded him once, as a great distraction for one term against a 10 man squad of stormsheild and thunder hammer termies, god I hate those things....

HQ
----------------------------
Daemon Prince
MoS
LoS
Wings
----------------------------
DAEMON
----------------------------
Greater Daemon
----------------------------
TROOPS
----------------------------
CSM(10)
Rhino
Autocannon(2)
----------------------------
TROOPS
----------------------------
CSM(10)
Rhino
Autocannon(2)
----------------------------
TROOPS
----------------------------
CSM(10)
Rhino
Flamer
----------------------------
HEAVY SUPPORT
----------------------------
Obliterators(3)
----------------------------
FAST ATTACK
----------------------------
Raptors(10)
Champ
Power Fist
Meltagun(2)
----------------------------
HEAVY SUPPORT
----------------------------
Chaos Predator
Sponson lascannons
----------------------------
HEAVY SUPPORT
----------------------------
Chaos Predator
Sponson lascannons

Don't have my codex handy, but I'm almost positive you can't have a 10 man CSM squad with 2 autocannons. Your choices are limited to either 1 Heavy + 1 Special, or 2 Specials.

Right you are, 1-up.

It's one special, no matter the squad size, then an additional special or heavy once you've got 10 or more.

Also, the Greater Daemon may be a bad choice for you, as you need to lose an Aspiring Something, and your only Champ is in with the raptors, and the Powerfist+Raptor base cost+Champ upgrade means that is an expensive bullet magnet being summoned, there.

I like your "List A"(List B is a step backwards, not forwards imo). I think it has a decent amount of tank-killing (although csm can always use more) and solid choices all around. The preds will annihilate any light vehicle transports before they ever get close and then can work on taking down MCs or any other tough units. I think lascannons in general are a bit weak in this edition due to their high cost and cover saves, but they can still rock face when used smartly.

I'll have to double check on the autocannons then and I was also unaware that the Greater daemon required a snackrifice >.< I'll redo B again.

Lokoing at list a: For a 1500 point list i would look at taking another troops choice in case you end up with an objectives game.

I LOVE obliterators. Depending on who you are fighting though a Vindi is also a good choice for Heavy support. Stonger than a Lascannon and with a lareg template. shorter range but better front armour than a pred.

I also like the raptors. I run mine with dual flamers to tackle enemy infanty and also run with a fist champ and IoK if i have the spare points.

One thing I noticed is that your noise marine squad is pretty expensive too. In my experience noise marines are great assualters and only resort to shooting when it is better for them(like holding an objective but pouring shots into horde orks, nids, guard, etc). The thing that is really nice is that their 2 shots before assaulting hit on 3's unlike their hth when going agaisnt other MEQ with WS 4. So 2 shots that hit on 3s and wound on 4's and 3 attacks that usually go first and hit on 4's and wound on 4's. Add in PW or PF champ and its golden.


So Blast Master at 40 points for a squad that should be in a rhino and then getting into a fight seems less than ideal.

In my csm armies I run NM as squads of 8(actually I run pretty much all csm as squads of 8. They are big enough to be durable, but don't spend extra points on those last 2 models-- 6 attacks or 4 shots that really arnt necessary to get the job done).

8 NM w sonic blaster
champ w fist(siren is fun, but optional)
rhino
Thats about 50+ points cheaper than your current squad and gets the same job done IMO.

Cutting down the zerker squad in the same manner (to 8) and dropping the havoks frees up roughtly 300 points. That could turn into 2 X rhino with 5 csm and a melta gun, with a few left over to spread around. That helps relieve your anti tank problem, and also gives you 4 scoring units in rhinos to help with claiming objectives. The squads of 5 are minimilistic but thir job is to pop a tank, or sit in their rhino on an objective). You have the NM Zerkers, and raptors for killing stuff.

Anyway, not saying this is a must or anything, but its something to consider. 2 rhinos are just asking to be stopped before they deliver their payload. Chances are that if there are 4 of them at least some are going to get where they are going, and can even hot swap when say the zerkers ride gets blowed up they can trade places with a 5 man csm squad(like if the opponent goes first and pops it in your deployment zone before you get a chance to smoke, etc).

I think the best view towards list building with the csm dex is to get in as much as you can for as little as you can. The dex has many overpriced options, so it really comes down to evaluating what a unit is supposed to be doing, and then trimming the fat on everything beyond what it takes to get the job done.

After confirming that I can't take 2 autocannons sad panda, here is the list again... List B, also I still can't find where it says that I need to snackrifice a Aspiring champ.
HQ
----------------------------
Daemon Prince
MoS
LoS
Wings
----------------------------
TROOPS
----------------------------
CSM(10)
Rhino
Autocannon(1)
Havoc Launcher
Icon of Chaos Glory
----------------------------
TROOPS
----------------------------
CSM(10)
Rhino
Autocannon(1)
Havoc Launcher
Icon of Chaos Glory
----------------------------
TROOPS
----------------------------
CSM(10)
Rhino
Flamer
Havoc Launcher
Icon of Chaos Glory
----------------------------
HEAVY SUPPORT
----------------------------
Obliterators(3)
----------------------------
FAST ATTACK
----------------------------
Raptors(10)
Champ
Power Fist
Plasma Pistol
Meltagun(2)
Icon of Chaos Glory
----------------------------
HEAVY SUPPORT
----------------------------
Chaos Predator
Sponson lascannons
Havoc Launcher
Dirge Caster
----------------------------
HEAVY SUPPORT
----------------------------
Chaos Predator
Sponson lascannons
Havoc Launcher
Dirge Caster

HQ: DP looks good.

Troops: CSM get a 2nd special weapon at 10 men in a squad. A melta would be a good choice since armies are so Mech heavy these days.
Havoc Launchers are meh. The points could be better spend elsewhere. As a rule of thumb, naked Rhinos are best. They should always be moving, not standing still to shoot.

Fast Attack: Raptors look good, but the plasma pistol is dangerous and costly. If you've invested so many points into 1 model (champ upgrade and powerfist) it would be really rotten if he blew himself up shooting a plasma pistol.

Heavy Support: Pred with sponson lascannons is good, but Dirge Caster is a waste of points, as is the aformentioned Havoc Launcher.

Dropping 5 x Havoc Launchers, 1 x Plasma Pistol, and 2 x Dirge Caster can easily buy you another Daemon Prince or a Chaos Sorc to go in a 9-man Rhino squad.

HQ
----------------------------
Daemon Prince
MoS
LoS
Wings
----------------------------
TROOPS
----------------------------
CSM(10)
Rhino
Autocannon(1)
Meltgun(1)
Icon of Chaos Glory
----------------------------
TROOPS
----------------------------
CSM(10)
Rhino
Autocannon(1)
Meltgun(1)
Icon of Chaos Glory
----------------------------
TROOPS
----------------------------
CSM(10)
Rhino
Flamer(1)
Meltgun(1)
MoS
----------------------------
HEAVY SUPPORT
----------------------------
Obliterators(3)
----------------------------
FAST ATTACK
----------------------------
Raptors(10)
Champ
Power Fist
Meltagun(2)
MoT
----------------------------
HEAVY SUPPORT
----------------------------
Chaos Predator
Sponson lascannons
Twin linked bolter
----------------------------
HEAVY SUPPORT
----------------------------
Chaos Predator
Sponson lascannons
Twin linked bolter

I'm having an extremely hard time settling on it.

LyelCross wrote:Hello! I've been lurking this place through my friends account, and I liked what I saw/see now. You guys have actually been helpful to him! Which is what I'm seeking now :3 I'm a die hard fan of chaos mainly undivided. I've ran this army a little under 10 times and it's won most of the annihilation matches but ties up in the objectives. I was wondering if there was anything I can do with this list to improve survivability.

HQ
----------------------------
Daemon Prince
MoS
LoS
Wings

perfect
----------------------------
TROOPS
----------------------------
Khorne Bezerker(10)
Skull Champ
Power Fist
Rhino
Combi Melta

again perfect
----------------------------
TROOPS
----------------------------
Noise Marines(10)
Sonic Blasters
Blast Master
Rhino
Combi Melta

no blastmaster
----------------------------
HEAVY SUPPORT
----------------------------
Obliterators(3)

perfect again
----------------------------
FAST ATTACK
----------------------------
Raptors(10)
Champ
Power Fist
MoK
Meltagun(2)

hmm idk about the fist id say take claws instead
----------------------------
HEAVY SUPPORT
----------------------------
Havocs(5)
Lascannons(4)
Champ
Power Weapons
autocannons>lascannons