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Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Mandragola wrote:
Yeah true enough. Disintegrator spam is bad news for primaris. It’s oddly about as good vs my t8 vehicles as a dark lance, better against my infantry, and cheaper.


It's a busted ass weapon in the hands of Drukhari. It's novel that Drukhari are such a problem, but really it's just racetrack gunline vs parking lot (IG). The result is largely the same for us, I fear.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




My LGT list right now is running a Raven Guard Outrider with Shrike, 1 unit of vanguard vets, 1 unit of bolter Inceptors and 2 units of Scout Bikers. Lots of dakka and lots of mobility.

I personally like the Scout bikes (77 points for 3 twin bolters, 3 shotguns and a storm bolter?!?!?!) but, i feel like the Inceptors have a great supporting role alongside them due to also having a lot of shots, but also having str 5 -1ap on them.

Stormtalons are interesting to me, but, i'd probably run them with heavy bolters rather than lascannons, and pick up the lascannons elsewhere. As others have said, they don't get chapter tactics and will likely be moving around the table, so they can be extremely good at horde control. 2 lascannon shots hitting on 3's or 4's (maybe even 5s and 6s!) just doesn't always feel good. I'd rather take a Relic Contemptor with 4 lascannon shots for around the same points, or even 2 devastator squads for a handful more. If they eventually get chapter tactics though, my stormtalons will be making another appearance. Units with fly are going to be big for the rest of this edition imo, so, the stormtalon lascannons might not always be getting that +1 to hit. (t'au suits and drukari vehicles are the main things i expect. Would work well vs guard though).

Mandragola, i also presume you'll be running Raven Guard/putting most of the units in the Repulsors to begin with? While it'll help with survivability, i'm not too sure how it'll stand up against a more full on gun line, which, many expect will soon be becoming the "go to" style.
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer



London

Thanks Kdash that's useful to know. I've got a feeling that scout bikers are one of the sleeper hits of the codex.

Now to model a guy riding a motorbike, firing a storm bolter in one hand and a shotgun in the other.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




On the topic of Salamanders. Cheap infantry lascannons are the most effective tool you cant get. I go for lasTacs because they fulfill the troop requirements and are ObSec (which has mattered in several games for me so far).

In terms of dreadnoughts, ranged dreadnoughts benefit a lot from the salamander tactic, but after fighting against some Tau, Ravenguard Ironclads were just so much more survivable than any salamander IC.


Also, Quick rules question.

The Armorium Cherub states that "After a model in this unit has fired... that model can immediately shoot again."

The Salamander CT is, "You may re-roll a single failed hit roll and a single failed wound roll made for a Salamanders unit with this tactic each time it shoots or fights"

Would a Salamander Dev using the cherub get re-rolls for both shots?

   
Made in ca
Neophyte Undergoing Surgeries




Ottawa, Canada

Am I gimping myself by not starting every list I write with a Guard Battalion of 2x Company Commanders and 3x 10 man Infantry Squads? I'm aware Scouts are quite competitive however the extra CP and having chaff seem invaluable to shore up SM weaknesses.

30k Ultramarines
40k Sons of Orar 
   
Made in us
Thunderhawk Pilot Dropping From Orbit





The wilds of Pennsyltucky

Kdash wrote:
My LGT list right now is running a Raven Guard Outrider with Shrike, 1 unit of vanguard vets, 1 unit of bolter Inceptors and 2 units of Scout Bikers. Lots of dakka and lots of mobility.

I personally like the Scout bikes (77 points for 3 twin bolters, 3 shotguns and a storm bolter?!?!?!) but, i feel like the Inceptors have a great supporting role alongside them due to also having a lot of shots, but also having str 5 -1ap on them.

Stormtalons are interesting to me, but, i'd probably run them with heavy bolters rather than lascannons, and pick up the lascannons elsewhere. As others have said, they don't get chapter tactics and will likely be moving around the table, so they can be extremely good at horde control. 2 lascannon shots hitting on 3's or 4's (maybe even 5s and 6s!) just doesn't always feel good. I'd rather take a Relic Contemptor with 4 lascannon shots for around the same points, or even 2 devastator squads for a handful more. If they eventually get chapter tactics though, my stormtalons will be making another appearance. Units with fly are going to be big for the rest of this edition imo, so, the stormtalon lascannons might not always be getting that +1 to hit. (t'au suits and drukari vehicles are the main things i expect. Would work well vs guard though).

Mandragola, i also presume you'll be running Raven Guard/putting most of the units in the Repulsors to begin with? While it'll help with survivability, i'm not too sure how it'll stand up against a more full on gun line, which, many expect will soon be becoming the "go to" style.


I see what you mean about the lascannons. There are probably cheaper/more durable ways to get them. Also, he HB pairs up nicely with the dinner canni for character assassination and hurting hoards.

"Burning the aquila into the retinas of heretics is the new black." - Savnock

"The ignore button is for pansees who can't deal with their own problems. " - H.B.M.C. 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Hey, I'd like to revisit this "wholly within" Deredeo FAQ discussion for a minute:

jcd386 wrote:
From the rules FAQ:

Q: Can you clarify what the difference is between ‘wholly within’ and ‘within’ for rules purposes?
A: If a rule says it affects units/models that are ‘wholly within’ then it only applies if the entire unit/model is within. If it just says ‘within’, however, then it applies so long as any part of the unit/model is within.

We're talking about a single model, which is less complex than a unit. There are really only 3 options for a model to be. Out of 6", within 6", or wholly within 6".

So every model has to be wholly within 6".


I also saw this conflicting quote that had several upvotes on Reddit when another poster asked about the Deredeo shielding vehicles:
"There is a difference between units being wholly within and models being wholly within range of something.

For a unit to be wholly within range, each model in the unit must be within range (i.e. at least part of the base in range).
For a model to be wholly within range, its entire base must be within range.

So for something worded as units wholly within 6 inches, all models of the unit must have part of their base/hull in that 6 inch range."



That's quite a difference when talking trying to shield vehicles. I've got 2 versions of my list, 1 with a Venerable, 1 removing some other wargear and using a Deredeo with a pavaise. I'm pretty sure the Deredeo variant is better...IF the shield will cover what I want to cover. Either way I need to buy the dreadnought model and am unsure which to go with. Jcd's interpretation seems more compelling to me, but then everything is always so inconsistent I never know until someone gets a tournament ruling.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Assuming the Deredeo shield won't work on vehicles, here's what I'm thinking for my new 2000pt RG list:

Battalion for 8 total CPs

Captain - Thunder hammer, storm bolter
Lieutenant - Teeth of Terrra, storm bolter, warlord Storm of Fire

5 Intercessors - Aux grenade launcher
5 Scouts - Storm bolter, bolters
5 Scouts - Storm bolter, bolters

4 Aggressors - Boltstorms
Relic Contemptor Dreadnought - 2x TL Autocannons
Venerable Dreadnought - 2x TL Autocannons
Venerable Dreadnought - TL Lascannon, TL autocannon

6 Devastators - 4 Lascannons, cherub, storm bolter
6 Devastators - 3 Lascannons, 1 missile launcher, cherub, storm bolter
10 Hellblasters - Assault incinerators

Razorback - TL Assault cannon, storm bolter, HK
Razorback - TL Assault cannon, storm bolter, HK

Most forms a gunline, but the Aggressors and combat squaded Hellblasters can SftS as necessary and the Contemptor can move fast to use the Wisdom strat to give rerolls on any units away from the main gun blob.

Alternate thought: Drop 1 Aggressor and the 2 bolter marines for a Company Ancient. I really like the idea of getting 3+ chance of free shots, but it's likely only some Devs in range, which works out to prob 3-5 free lascannon shots. Nice, but doesn't feel like an auto include and would make me rearrange wargear points to squeeze in anything for him or the Lt. Wargear changes mean removing the thunder hammer or downgrading the Venerable's TL Las to TL auto.

Compared to my prior lists, this drops the Shrike+VV bomb contingent in favor of more Hellblasters due to the beta change and reduces the Razorback count in favor of Dreadnoughts for the chapter tactics. I still kinda wanted to keep 1-3 just cause I own so many Rhino chassis and they're versatile.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/04/21 02:53:26


 
   
Made in gb
Combat Jumping Rasyat




East of England

What vehicle doesnt fit in the Deredeo bubble? Certainly 2 Razors would...
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Sure, I didn’t mean the shield not applying. But it takes up a lot of the space, limits positioning and as noted the bigger flyers won’t fit. Only needing to have them partially within 6” is a lot easier and would let me get the other dreads in there too if desired.
   
Made in gb
Death-Dealing Dark Angels Devastator




Sleeping in the Rock

cLrK

Bringing Guard as a cheap infantry screen and disposable objective grabbers is certainly a viable move. I play a lot of Guard and they do help offset the weaknesses of armies with a lower model count.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/21 08:56:50


"In Warfare, preparation is the key. Determine that which your foe prizes the most. Then site your heavy weapons so that they overlook it. In this way, you may be quite sure that you shall never want for targets."
— Lion El'Jonson


"What I cannot crush with words I will crush with the tanks of the Imperial Guard!"
- Lord Commander Solar Macharius
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Mandragola wrote:
Thanks Kdash that's useful to know. I've got a feeling that scout bikers are one of the sleeper hits of the codex.

Now to model a guy riding a motorbike, firing a storm bolter in one hand and a shotgun in the other.


As long as he's pulling a wheelie at the same time!!!!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 cLrK wrote:
Am I gimping myself by not starting every list I write with a Guard Battalion of 2x Company Commanders and 3x 10 man Infantry Squads? I'm aware Scouts are quite competitive however the extra CP and having chaff seem invaluable to shore up SM weaknesses.


Depends on the format. If there are no restrictions and you need the extra CP, then, they can really help - even if the just sit there and die.

If you don't really need the extra CP, or you're restricted in detachments like the LGT (one of each detachment) then i don't think it really matters.

It all depends what you plan on doing with the other 1820 points. If you're also going to be running scouts, a captain and a lieutenant, then all you're saving yourself overall is 125 points. You get more bodies with the guard, but, you get deployment tricks and "better" surviviability with the scouts (not much better, but...)

At the end of the day, i really believe it is just down to personal preference and how you plan on building your army around the core.

If there are no detachment restrictions, like the NWO later in the year, then, you could run a battalion of both for 10CP for under 500 points and then work from there. Again, it just depends on what you want to do with the other 1500 points and whether or not you actually need the extra CP.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/21 11:58:14


 
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer



London

Kdash wrote:
Mandragola wrote:
Thanks Kdash that's useful to know. I've got a feeling that scout bikers are one of the sleeper hits of the codex.

Now to model a guy riding a motorbike, firing a storm bolter in one hand and a shotgun in the other.


As long as he's pulling a wheelie at the same time!!!!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 cLrK wrote:
Am I gimping myself by not starting every list I write with a Guard Battalion of 2x Company Commanders and 3x 10 man Infantry Squads? I'm aware Scouts are quite competitive however the extra CP and having chaff seem invaluable to shore up SM weaknesses.


Depends on the format. If there are no restrictions and you need the extra CP, then, they can really help - even if the just sit there and die.

If you don't really need the extra CP, or you're restricted in detachments like the LGT (one of each detachment) then i don't think it really matters.

It all depends what you plan on doing with the other 1820 points. If you're also going to be running scouts, a captain and a lieutenant, then all you're saving yourself overall is 125 points. You get more bodies with the guard, but, you get deployment tricks and "better" surviviability with the scouts (not much better, but...)

At the end of the day, i really believe it is just down to personal preference and how you plan on building your army around the core.

If there are no detachment restrictions, like the NWO later in the year, then, you could run a battalion of both for 10CP for under 500 points and then work from there. Again, it just depends on what you want to do with the other 1500 points and whether or not you actually need the extra CP.

Of course he’d be doing a wheelie. He may also have a beard and mullet.

I’d forgotten about the detachment limit for the LGT. I’d been vaguely thinking of taking my Tau there with double battalions. They aren’t ready though, and given that the planned list wouldn’t be legal, aren’t likely to participate. I could bring a brigade, but then I couldn’t use the stormsurge.

The annoying thing is I’ve got to submit my LGT list before the GT finals in Nottingham, which is the week before the LGT. So if I find that I hate my list at the GT I’ll be stuck with it for the LGT. Hence the idea of doing something totally different.
   
Made in ca
Neophyte Undergoing Surgeries




Ottawa, Canada

 Lion of Caliban wrote:
cLrK

Bringing Guard as a cheap infantry screen and disposable objective grabbers is certainly a viable move. I play a lot of Guard and they do help offset the weaknesses of armies with a lower model count.


Exactly what I'm thinking. For the points it seems like a no brainer, unfortunately.

Kdash wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 cLrK wrote:
Am I gimping myself by not starting every list I write with a Guard Battalion of 2x Company Commanders and 3x 10 man Infantry Squads? I'm aware Scouts are quite competitive however the extra CP and having chaff seem invaluable to shore up SM weaknesses.


Depends on the format. If there are no restrictions and you need the extra CP, then, they can really help - even if the just sit there and die.

If you don't really need the extra CP, or you're restricted in detachments like the LGT (one of each detachment) then i don't think it really matters.

It all depends what you plan on doing with the other 1820 points. If you're also going to be running scouts, a captain and a lieutenant, then all you're saving yourself overall is 125 points. You get more bodies with the guard, but, you get deployment tricks and "better" surviviability with the scouts (not much better, but...)

At the end of the day, i really believe it is just down to personal preference and how you plan on building your army around the core.

If there are no detachment restrictions, like the NWO later in the year, then, you could run a battalion of both for 10CP for under 500 points and then work from there. Again, it just depends on what you want to do with the other 1500 points and whether or not you actually need the extra CP.


Fair points. For the price, CP and bodies it seems like an auto take if the format allows. It would be nice if detachments brought only gave CP if they were the same faction as your warlord.

30k Ultramarines
40k Sons of Orar 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Yeah, that CP thing...

I keep wanting to avoid Imperial mix style, but that is a good point on the extra CPs. I could swap out my 200pts in 10 Scouts and 5 Intercessors for 32 guardsmen bodies and +2 CP via moving the marines to Vanguard+Spearhead. Bodywise I'd call that an easy downgrade, but +2CP and say an heirloom to get +1 CP on a 5+ anytime an opponent uses something? That's easily covering a Chapter Master upgrade and some additional strat uses midgame. (I don't own the AM codex, can I take an heirloom without an AM warlord?)


Speaking of, how much do you guys value the Captain to CM upgrade vs keeping CPs for midgame? I hadn't really thought about it before due to using Shrike. 3 CPs is a lot, but rerolling 2s is so useful.
   
Made in pl
Fresh-Faced New User




 Talizvar wrote:
@Sarkun: The list is a very good start, a good "all-comers" list.

What I would suggest to expand on what you have, listed in order of ease of use:

...snip...

I have not even mentioned the Primaris stuff and figured that would be something to try at a later date unless you like the "true-scale" marines.



Thanks a lot, especially for the tips. I own a magnetized Predator so for a bigger points game, yeah definitely. Whirlwind, I guess I could buy some conversion kit to reuse one of other vehicles...

Scouts, well I just hate the models. Aircraft... WTH is that XD. I need to actually play some games against them to see what they do, back in my days we stuck to the ground.

And Primaris are not for me. Old school small marines all the way!
   
Made in gb
Combat Jumping Rasyat




East of England

bort wrote:
I don't own the AM codex, can I take an heirloom without an AM warlord?)


Yes, but only by using the stratagem to allocate an extra relic. Your 'free' one has to be in your warlord's army.

bort wrote:
how much do you guys value the Captain to CM upgrade vs keeping CPs for midgame? I hadn't really thought about it before due to using Shrike. 3 CPs is a lot, but rerolling 2s is so useful.


I don't really bother with CM because 3cps is just vicious. However, with double battallion now being a decent 10cps, I may give him another spin. I like to deploy across the board, rather than plonk everything down in a castle, which reduces a CM's value. I find a captain, and a dread using wisdom of the ancients strat, to be good enough. The key drawback with a CM is that he doesn't let you reroll misses due to minuses to hit, so he's really only helping you by rerolling twos. And the unit you need rerolls on the most is Hellblasters or other plasma spam, and if you reroll twos and one, a lot more of your guys are going to bite the dust. Overall, not worth it for me, but I can see him being almost autoinclude in certain builds...
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




bort wrote:
Yeah, that CP thing...

I keep wanting to avoid Imperial mix style, but that is a good point on the extra CPs. I could swap out my 200pts in 10 Scouts and 5 Intercessors for 32 guardsmen bodies and +2 CP via moving the marines to Vanguard+Spearhead. Bodywise I'd call that an easy downgrade, but +2CP and say an heirloom to get +1 CP on a 5+ anytime an opponent uses something? That's easily covering a Chapter Master upgrade and some additional strat uses midgame. (I don't own the AM codex, can I take an heirloom without an AM warlord?)


Speaking of, how much do you guys value the Captain to CM upgrade vs keeping CPs for midgame? I hadn't really thought about it before due to using Shrike. 3 CPs is a lot, but rerolling 2s is so useful.

There were only two situations where I would consider even using the Chapter Master Strategem:
1. Smashbane (who doesn't exist anymore anyway thanks to the FAQ) while running up with everyone else
2. A generic Black Templars Captain and given the aura relic

Otherwise why bother?

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Yeah I often include a chapter master as a named charictor, but thats usually for their special rules not for their reroll aura, venerable dreads and relic dreads are BS2+anyway
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




NEW TOPIC BECAUSE WE NEED TO CONVERSE ABOUT SOMETHING I GUESS:
So most people here know I have a Scorpius, and most people here know I fit that Scorpius into basically every list because it's FW and therefore expensive, but I also like the concept of the model. However, how much more effective is it than the regular Whirlwind with either gun option? I wanted to investigate. Therefore I decided to calculate against Infantry, Marines, Terminators, Custodes, Dawneagles, and Rhinos. If there's anything else to calculate, please do and share your findings.

So the gun for the Scorpius is S6, 3D3, -2AP, and D2. It performs as such against the following:
GEQ: 3.3
MEQ: 1.8 (which is 3.6 to pesky Primaris dudes)
TEQ: 1.3 (2.6 to those 2 wound models)
CEQ: 2.6, but 0 dead models
DEQ: 2 wounds total
REQ: 1.8

The Whirlwind Vengeance is gonna be more shots for the price, as you can get 2 of them. So we can calculate the number of shots as 4D3, at S7, AP-1, and D2 as follows:
GEQ: 3.7
MEQ: 1.8 (which is 3.6 to pesky Primaris models)
TEQ: 1.2 (2.2 to those 2 wound models)
CEQ: 2.3, but 0 dead models
DEQ: 2.4 wounds total
REQ: 2.7

The Whirlwind Castellan will be 4D6 at S6, but zilch damage and AP. That looks as follows:
GEQ: 5.2
MEQ: 2.1 (which would be only 1 dead Primaris)
TEQ: 1.1
CEQ: 1.1
DEQ: 0.8 wounds total
REQ: 1

So as we can see, they are shining in different areas. The immediate winner in each area is as follows:
GEQ: Castellan
MEQ: Castellan for 1 wound models, and then Scorpius and Vengeance are equal
TEQ: Scorpius
CEQ: Scorpius
DEQ: Vengeance
REQ: Vengeance

So it's actually kinda balanced point wise as they all do something different. HOWEVER, you can double the numbers for the Scorpius as, if it stays still, it can fire twice. This makes it better than either Codex variant, but it's also much easier to kill as it's only one model. That also makes it potentially easier to hide though if there's enough terrain.

So how does everyone else feel on this? Is double the wounds and therefore survivability worth more than the intense damage output? Is it worth having to use 2 Heavy Support slots in that case? Is it worth buying a single Elite to fit in a single Relic model?

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Phew, okay. I was planning to skip the CM, at least if sticking with pure marine. But I recalled seeing so many lists using the upgrade.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




bort wrote:
Phew, okay. I was planning to skip the CM, at least if sticking with pure marine. But I recalled seeing so many lists using the upgrade.

There...really isn't. If you saw those lists here, those were strictly fluffbunnies making a list. Taking a named Master is just that much better.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Master with Gauntlets of Macragge




What's left of Cadia

Yeah, the CM upgrade just isn't worth it for the CP output you have to pay. Generic Captain or a named Chapter master are better in most cases

TheEyeOfNight- I swear, this thread is 70% smack talk, 20% RP organization, and 10% butt jokes
TheEyeOfNight- "Ordo Xenos reports that the Necrons have attained democracy, kamikaze tendencies, and nuclear fission. It's all tits up, sir."
Space Marine flyers are shaped for the greatest possible air resistance so that the air may never defeat the SPACE MARINES!
Sternguard though, those guys are all about kicking ass. They'd chew bubble gum as well, but bubble gum is heretical. Only tau chew gum
 
   
Made in au
Warning From Magnus? Not Listening!





Melbourne, Australia

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
NEW TOPIC BECAUSE WE NEED TO CONVERSE ABOUT SOMETHING I GUESS:
Spoiler:
So most people here know I have a Scorpius, and most people here know I fit that Scorpius into basically every list because it's FW and therefore expensive, but I also like the concept of the model. However, how much more effective is it than the regular Whirlwind with either gun option? I wanted to investigate. Therefore I decided to calculate against Infantry, Marines, Terminators, Custodes, Dawneagles, and Rhinos. If there's anything else to calculate, please do and share your findings.

So the gun for the Scorpius is S6, 3D3, -2AP, and D2. It performs as such against the following:
GEQ: 3.3
MEQ: 1.8 (which is 3.6 to pesky Primaris dudes)
TEQ: 1.3 (2.6 to those 2 wound models)
CEQ: 2.6, but 0 dead models
DEQ: 2 wounds total
REQ: 1.8

The Whirlwind Vengeance is gonna be more shots for the price, as you can get 2 of them. So we can calculate the number of shots as 4D3, at S7, AP-1, and D2 as follows:
GEQ: 3.7
MEQ: 1.8 (which is 3.6 to pesky Primaris models)
TEQ: 1.2 (2.2 to those 2 wound models)
CEQ: 2.3, but 0 dead models
DEQ: 2.4 wounds total
REQ: 2.7

The Whirlwind Castellan will be 4D6 at S6, but zilch damage and AP. That looks as follows:
GEQ: 5.2
MEQ: 2.1 (which would be only 1 dead Primaris)
TEQ: 1.1
CEQ: 1.1
DEQ: 0.8 wounds total
REQ: 1

So as we can see, they are shining in different areas. The immediate winner in each area is as follows:
GEQ: Castellan
MEQ: Castellan for 1 wound models, and then Scorpius and Vengeance are equal
TEQ: Scorpius
CEQ: Scorpius
DEQ: Vengeance
REQ: Vengeance

So it's actually kinda balanced point wise as they all do something different. HOWEVER, you can double the numbers for the Scorpius as, if it stays still, it can fire twice. This makes it better than either Codex variant, but it's also much easier to kill as it's only one model. That also makes it potentially easier to hide though if there's enough terrain.


So how does everyone else feel on this? Is double the wounds and therefore survivability worth more than the intense damage output? Is it worth having to use 2 Heavy Support slots in that case? Is it worth buying a single Elite to fit in a single Relic model?
I think the scorpius is probably worth it. All the more so if you're already inclined to take the model. Because it can hide out of LOS, the reduced W count isn't a huge deal, but do make sure you protect it from T2 DS. I also think our heavy support slots are better filled with devs +/ Hellblasters than whirlwinds. The only real issue I see with the Scorpius vs standard Whirlwinds is that the Scorpius can't benefit from the auto-hit LS strategy

My P&M blog

DC:90S++G+++M+B+IPw40k04#+D+A+++/cWD241R++T(T)DM+ 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Brother Payne wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
NEW TOPIC BECAUSE WE NEED TO CONVERSE ABOUT SOMETHING I GUESS:
Spoiler:
So most people here know I have a Scorpius, and most people here know I fit that Scorpius into basically every list because it's FW and therefore expensive, but I also like the concept of the model. However, how much more effective is it than the regular Whirlwind with either gun option? I wanted to investigate. Therefore I decided to calculate against Infantry, Marines, Terminators, Custodes, Dawneagles, and Rhinos. If there's anything else to calculate, please do and share your findings.

So the gun for the Scorpius is S6, 3D3, -2AP, and D2. It performs as such against the following:
GEQ: 3.3
MEQ: 1.8 (which is 3.6 to pesky Primaris dudes)
TEQ: 1.3 (2.6 to those 2 wound models)
CEQ: 2.6, but 0 dead models
DEQ: 2 wounds total
REQ: 1.8

The Whirlwind Vengeance is gonna be more shots for the price, as you can get 2 of them. So we can calculate the number of shots as 4D3, at S7, AP-1, and D2 as follows:
GEQ: 3.7
MEQ: 1.8 (which is 3.6 to pesky Primaris models)
TEQ: 1.2 (2.2 to those 2 wound models)
CEQ: 2.3, but 0 dead models
DEQ: 2.4 wounds total
REQ: 2.7

The Whirlwind Castellan will be 4D6 at S6, but zilch damage and AP. That looks as follows:
GEQ: 5.2
MEQ: 2.1 (which would be only 1 dead Primaris)
TEQ: 1.1
CEQ: 1.1
DEQ: 0.8 wounds total
REQ: 1

So as we can see, they are shining in different areas. The immediate winner in each area is as follows:
GEQ: Castellan
MEQ: Castellan for 1 wound models, and then Scorpius and Vengeance are equal
TEQ: Scorpius
CEQ: Scorpius
DEQ: Vengeance
REQ: Vengeance

So it's actually kinda balanced point wise as they all do something different. HOWEVER, you can double the numbers for the Scorpius as, if it stays still, it can fire twice. This makes it better than either Codex variant, but it's also much easier to kill as it's only one model. That also makes it potentially easier to hide though if there's enough terrain.


So how does everyone else feel on this? Is double the wounds and therefore survivability worth more than the intense damage output? Is it worth having to use 2 Heavy Support slots in that case? Is it worth buying a single Elite to fit in a single Relic model?
I think the scorpius is probably worth it. All the more so if you're already inclined to take the model. Because it can hide out of LOS, the reduced W count isn't a huge deal, but do make sure you protect it from T2 DS. I also think our heavy support slots are better filled with devs +/ Hellblasters than whirlwinds. The only real issue I see with the Scorpius vs standard Whirlwinds is that the Scorpius can't benefit from the auto-hit LS strategy

Usually it's implied you're near some rerolling. I just didn't calculate that because I'm lazy. It's also nice to know what stuff does on its own too.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in au
Warning From Magnus? Not Listening!





Melbourne, Australia

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Brother Payne wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
NEW TOPIC BECAUSE WE NEED TO CONVERSE ABOUT SOMETHING I GUESS:
Spoiler:
So most people here know I have a Scorpius, and most people here know I fit that Scorpius into basically every list because it's FW and therefore expensive, but I also like the concept of the model. However, how much more effective is it than the regular Whirlwind with either gun option? I wanted to investigate. Therefore I decided to calculate against Infantry, Marines, Terminators, Custodes, Dawneagles, and Rhinos. If there's anything else to calculate, please do and share your findings.

So the gun for the Scorpius is S6, 3D3, -2AP, and D2. It performs as such against the following:
GEQ: 3.3
MEQ: 1.8 (which is 3.6 to pesky Primaris dudes)
TEQ: 1.3 (2.6 to those 2 wound models)
CEQ: 2.6, but 0 dead models
DEQ: 2 wounds total
REQ: 1.8

The Whirlwind Vengeance is gonna be more shots for the price, as you can get 2 of them. So we can calculate the number of shots as 4D3, at S7, AP-1, and D2 as follows:
GEQ: 3.7
MEQ: 1.8 (which is 3.6 to pesky Primaris models)
TEQ: 1.2 (2.2 to those 2 wound models)
CEQ: 2.3, but 0 dead models
DEQ: 2.4 wounds total
REQ: 2.7

The Whirlwind Castellan will be 4D6 at S6, but zilch damage and AP. That looks as follows:
GEQ: 5.2
MEQ: 2.1 (which would be only 1 dead Primaris)
TEQ: 1.1
CEQ: 1.1
DEQ: 0.8 wounds total
REQ: 1

So as we can see, they are shining in different areas. The immediate winner in each area is as follows:
GEQ: Castellan
MEQ: Castellan for 1 wound models, and then Scorpius and Vengeance are equal
TEQ: Scorpius
CEQ: Scorpius
DEQ: Vengeance
REQ: Vengeance

So it's actually kinda balanced point wise as they all do something different. HOWEVER, you can double the numbers for the Scorpius as, if it stays still, it can fire twice. This makes it better than either Codex variant, but it's also much easier to kill as it's only one model. That also makes it potentially easier to hide though if there's enough terrain.


So how does everyone else feel on this? Is double the wounds and therefore survivability worth more than the intense damage output? Is it worth having to use 2 Heavy Support slots in that case? Is it worth buying a single Elite to fit in a single Relic model?
I think the scorpius is probably worth it. All the more so if you're already inclined to take the model. Because it can hide out of LOS, the reduced W count isn't a huge deal, but do make sure you protect it from T2 DS. I also think our heavy support slots are better filled with devs +/ Hellblasters than whirlwinds. The only real issue I see with the Scorpius vs standard Whirlwinds is that the Scorpius can't benefit from the auto-hit LS strategy

Usually it's implied you're near some rerolling. I just didn't calculate that because I'm lazy. It's also nice to know what stuff does on its own too.
I wasn't taking away from that. Simply saying that one benefit the standard whirlwinds have over the scorpius is you can potentially allow them to auto-hit (which on a Castellan would likely make a significant difference). As I said though, I'd probably run the scorpius. The only time the regular whirlwinds is a no brainer is if you're running DA with Sableclaw and a Talonmaster or two.

My P&M blog

DC:90S++G+++M+B+IPw40k04#+D+A+++/cWD241R++T(T)DM+ 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




I also found the main solution to the problem of how to make Lias Drops more effective. The answer was under our noses the entire time.

The Ancient is one of the few ways to really make the most of the 18 point at minimum models. Just use a single command point to Infiltrate him and have the rest of the army catch up. The Relic Banner to make the effect 3+ would be the best upgrade.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I also found the main solution to the problem of how to make Lias Drops more effective. The answer was under our noses the entire time.

The Ancient is one of the few ways to really make the most of the 18 point at minimum models. Just use a single command point to Infiltrate him and have the rest of the army catch up. The Relic Banner to make the effect 3+ would be the best upgrade.


Don't Lias and the boys have to wait until turn 2 now?
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




jcd386 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I also found the main solution to the problem of how to make Lias Drops more effective. The answer was under our noses the entire time.

The Ancient is one of the few ways to really make the most of the 18 point at minimum models. Just use a single command point to Infiltrate him and have the rest of the army catch up. The Relic Banner to make the effect 3+ would be the best upgrade.


Don't Lias and the boys have to wait until turn 2 now?

To get more into range of stuff. You'd need to kill as much of the screens as you can before that point, and, if you can't Lias them early, camp the Ancient in cover as close as you can.

The opponent will know the plan at that point and will direct a a very disproportionate amount of firepower at him, which makes for the cheapest Distraction Carnifex we got in a setting like that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm just trying to think outside the box at this point. I figured Sternguard and Command Squads have the highest number of potential shots for the points, though Devastators would be an excellent choice as well.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/22 16:18:05


CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I do wonder if the tendency to want to bring 3 pricey units down with Lias is a bit of a trap now.

2-3 units that cost about 200 points each is a large portion of any list, I wonder how effective the first couple turns would be waiting for them, especially when going second.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




the lias list is, effectively, a corpse now for those using the beta rules. SftS is a bit more viable by itself since you have more CPs to play with.
   
 
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