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 Jidmah wrote:

gungo wrote:
There is a with ork 5+ bs shooting if armies like alaitoc are filled with -2 to hit units.

This means orks do not get to shoot ever outside of 12in. There better be a strategem that boosts bs by +1 like the Cadian astra militarum strategem.

There might also be something like "orks don't aim they simply shoot." making them immune to modifiers.

The exact argument i emailedy (nicely) to gw a couple months ago. Perhaps others may try the same thing.

What mail are you mailing those things to? It really doesn't matter whether I send it to them or post it on this forum, so can't hurt to try.

 Jidmah wrote:
What mail are you mailing those things to? It really doesn't matter whether I send it to them or post it on this forum, so can't hurt to try.

Just a reminder...in today's post on the AM FAQ, GW said they responded directly to the conscript outcry and nerfed the bejesus out of commissars.

They DO listen.

gamefaqs@gwplc.com

 JimOnMars wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
What mail are you mailing those things to? It really doesn't matter whether I send it to them or post it on this forum, so can't hurt to try.

Just a reminder...in today's post on the AM FAQ, GW said they responded directly to the conscript outcry and nerfed the bejesus out of commissars.

They DO listen.

gamefaqs@gwplc.com

Tell them to make power klaws better cause they suck

 Dr.Duck wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
What mail are you mailing those things to? It really doesn't matter whether I send it to them or post it on this forum, so can't hurt to try.

Just a reminder...in today's post on the AM FAQ, GW said they responded directly to the conscript outcry and nerfed the bejesus out of commissars.

They DO listen.

gamefaqs@gwplc.com

Tell them to make power klaws better cause they suck

Tell them yourself

Power fists got a price reduction. If power klaws become 16 points they may be useful once again.

Being already S10+ and Ap-3 I don't think power klaws will have other helps than a points decrease. The -1 to hit and the D3 damage are absolutely fair, the 25 points cost isn't.

PK ought to go down to ~15 pts. Now the killsaws are a mystery. Chainfists (that are identical to killsaws) haven't dropped in price iirc. Which is a shame. If the klaw is 14-16 pts and a killsaw is 29 there's no reason to take a killsaw. Especially with the possibility of facing d/2 opponents like Abaddon, Calgar and many more to come.

 Blackie wrote:
The -1 to hit and the D3 damage are absolutely fair, the 25 points cost isn't.

I disagree. In the past the Powerklaw was our replacement for anti-tank weapons. In order to fulfill that role, the klaw either needs to hit without a modifier OR do d6 damage. Both would turn any boss nob in Ghazghkull Thrakka, which would be obviously way over the top. Accordingly, the killsaw should also go to having no hit modifier, making it a lot more useful for meks, koptaz and mega nobz who have too few attacks to make a weapon with -1 to hit worthwhile.
There is no real difference between S8, S10 or S12 when fighting tough targets, that regard, all of them wound most vehicles on 3+. The only difference compared to a marine PF (which pretty much no one uses) is wounding T8 vehicles on 3's - and it's not like we steamroll those because our power fists have +2S.

Currently models with T6+ and 10 or more wounds have nothing to fear from boss nobz. Armies are not created equal, there is no reason to match points with an army that can get rerolling lascannons everywhere.

In the past vehicles could be instant killed by a single lucky shot. Thankfully this issue is gone, I like vehicles being more tough, even if it penalizes orks.

Nobz with pks hit on 4s in the previous edition as well, warbosses on 3s, the only difference is that they don't have the +1 attack granted by charging but they can have the +1A with the mob number, thanks do ghaz aura and the weirdboy psychic power.

S10+ AP-3 Damage D6 would be too powerful IMHO. Maybe it could be the profile for the killsaw, and it should cost around 25-30 points.

I think orks basically need points reductions, spamming pks should be their aim to deal with armored stuff in close combat, not fielding a few characters that can wreck everything.

 Blackie wrote:

Nobz with pks hit on 4s in the previous edition as well, warbosses on 3s, the only difference is that they don't have the +1 attack granted by charging but they can have the +1A with the mob number, thanks do ghaz aura and the weirdboy psychic power.

The difference is that this single PK was crippling and exploding vehicles left and right. Now you're lucky if it deals a couple wounds out of 10 or something.

A squad of bully boyz with a couple killsaws statistically one-shot an imperial knight even after retaliation damage. Now they do less than 10 wounds. Not even enough to start crippling it. And they cost much more.

A PK warboss was a killing machine that wrecked any regular vehicle on his own with 5 s10 ap2 attacks hitting on 3-s. Now he deals less than 3 wounds to a freaking rhino.

PK are not what they used to be. s10-12 ap-3 Dd3 in 8-th ed << s8-10 ap2 in 7-th ed

I understand but a single lucky pk that destroyed a vehicle was a mistake that needed to be fixed IMHO. And even if I loved the bullyboyz formation its bonuses needed to go as well.

Meganobz are my favorite models in the entire 40k catalogue but they just need to be cheaper since 54 points per model is quite silly. If they were 35-40 points each (with trukks and BW around 40-50 and 80-100) they would be good once again, there's no need to make them something that is capable to take down a knight in a single turn. That's power creep.

I don't want a warboss that is capable of eating a vehicle in a single turn as well.

I'd prefer to spam pks and other weapons than having a few characters or a single squad that wreck everything.

The mechanic that allowed a nob in a boyz squad to do the damage vs armored stuff was wrong, I certainly prefer a scenario in which 29 boyz cause 8-10 wounds to a T7 armor 3+ model and the nob with pk 1-2 rather than 0 wounds caused by the boyz and the istant death of the vehicle/walker caused by the nob.

The concept has changed. PK needed to be able to really cripple vehicles and tougher stuff because boyz could do nothing to av11. Now boyz are capable of dealing with anything if the numbers are sufficient enough. So, there is no longer a distinct difference between a pk nob and a bunch of boyz. They can do the same thing with not so various various effectiveness. A pk nob that costs 31 pts (6 pts nob + 25 pts pk) does 1.67 wounds to a rhino and kills 1.04 marines. 31 pts of choppa boyz do 1.16 wounds to a rhino and kill 1.72 marines.

 koooaei wrote:

A pk nob that costs 31 pts (6 pts nob + 25 pts pk) does 1.67 wounds to a rhino and kills 1.04 marines. 31 pts of choppa boyz do 1.16 wounds to a rhino and kill 1.72 marines.

And that's all fair IMHO but the cost of the pk which is clearly too high. One deadly model that causes the same damage of 7-8 smaller dudes he leads and not 20-30 is absolutely the concept I want.

A single pk that does all the job in a mob of boyz is a wrong concept IMHO. And a small unit of nobz/meganobz that can cause 30+ wounds because pks hit on 3s and cause D6 damage each is wrong as well. A squad of nobz/meganobz able to strip 8-12 wounds in close combat against a T8 model would be fair, just price the unit reasonably. "Bring more" should be the concept of orks, rather than relying on deathstars or superheores.

 Blackie wrote:
In the past vehicles could be instant killed by a single lucky shot. Thankfully this issue is gone, I like vehicles being more tough, even if it penalizes orks.

Vehicles are still more tough. On average you still need 3 "penetrating hits" to destroy a vehicle, just like melta or lascannons do.

Nobz with pks hit on 4s in the previous edition as well, warbosses on 3s, the only difference is that they don't have the +1 attack granted by charging but they can have the +1A with the mob number, thanks do ghaz aura and the weirdboy psychic power.

This is all but irrelevant. A klaw's job is to be a close combat lascannon. It's not doing that job well, and actually it's not do any job well. Even with 5 attacks and hitting on 3's (Warpath is always inferior to smite against vehicles) you are looking at 2d3 for 300+ points worth of support. Now compare that to a predator, PBC, LRBT or any other anti-tank weapon not completely terrible.

S10+ AP-3 Damage D6 would be too powerful IMHO. Maybe it could be the profile for the killsaw, and it should cost around 25-30 points.

A lascannon on a 3+ model of your choice supported by chaos lords, daemon princes, captains, chapter masters or primarchs also costs 25 points.
It's not like nobz are guaranteed to reach combat, and without support they are pretty likely to just hit their target once or not at all. In my experience your average boss nobz gets to attack once or twice over the course of a game, with some of them being able to fight every turn starting turn 3 and others never getting to swing at all.
The difference between S8 and S10 is marginal, all it means being better at wounding T4, T5 and T8 models. It is does nothing at all against all other targets. You need to stop thinking in terms of 7th edition.

I think orks basically need points reductions, spamming pks should be their aim to deal with armored stuff in close combat, not fielding a few characters that can wreck everything.

Aren't you a little overexaggerating?
"Spamming PKs" means one per unit of boyz, so about three to four unless you are running a full tide - which we don't want anymore after our codex. Better PKs would also make trukk and BW boyz viable again, which is important because you cannot buff boyz any more without making them broken. MANz would be able to actually kill stuff again.
At d3 damage you can spam any amount of PKs you want. You will never have enough of them to kill a single knight, baneblade or daemon primarch.
The only character that can currently "Wreck everything" is Ghazkhull Thrakka, which would mean 6 S12 WS2+ 3 damage attacks. I'm proposing 3 S10 WS4+ 1d6 damage attacks.

There is no reason for our close combat weapons to be worse than options that space marines don't even bother to buy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blackie wrote:
A single pk that does all the job in a mob of boyz is a wrong concept IMHO. And a small unit of nobz/meganobz that can cause 30+ wounds because pks hit on 3s and cause D6 damage each is wrong as well. A squad of nobz/meganobz able to strip 8-12 wounds in close combat against a T8 model would be fair, just price the unit reasonably. "Bring more" should be the concept of orks, rather than relying on deathstars or superheores.

You have a really weird and skewed view of the current game. Units much cheaper than mega nobz can blow up those same models through shooting, without even bothering to charge.

Also you keep making things much better than they are. 5 Megannobz with PKs get to roll about 5 damage dice against a T8 model, assuming it has no invulnerable save or FNP, which would require 5x to do 30+ wounds.
I also asked for the modifier to be removed OR d6 damage. I guess you just want to freak out at the very thought of some ork options not being strictly worse than what everyone else gets.

I want trukk boys to work, and I think the PK is probably the solution.

It needs to be scary enough to matter.

I also don't see why it shouldn't be better then a power fist. They have really good shooting.

Trukk boyz will work when we get 'eavy armor back.

Problem with trukkboyz is that trukks themselves would still be pretty trash. I’d like to see a major point reduction on them as well as a rework of their melee options as to make them more viable.

The issue is that a our massive amount of S4 attacks are very effective against anything not T8 or Sv 2+. Demon princes, Rhinos, Venerable Dreads, and Carnifexes are killed very well by our boyz with choppas or shootas. Whether our lone Nob has a Klaw, Big Choppa or inflatable cucumber makes little difference in the larger picture. That boyz gets a bonus in large groups also means that there are a lot fewer boss nobs around.

The question is if anyone would bother with boss Klaws even at 15 points. I don't think big choppas are an auto-include either.

And I don't think a 4+ save will make trukk-boyz viable either. Nobz have a 4+ save and works okay-ish in trukks or wagons. They are plenty durable, but they lack damage-output. Hard boyz would be worse in that respect. For boyz to be viable in transports the transport-tax must not be more than around 4 point per boy or so, which suggests a trukk for 45-50 point or a battlewagon for 80 point. And I think neither scenario is realistic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 gnome_idea_what wrote:
Problem with trukkboyz is that trukks themselves would still be pretty trash. I’d like to see a major point reduction on them as well as a rework of their melee options as to make them more viable.

For trukk-boyz to be viable the trukk needs to be much more trash than it is now. If it was T5, W8, Sv4+, it could probably be priced at 40-45 including a big shoota. The trukk we have now works well when it transports Nobz, Burnas, Tankbustas and such. Just like Rhinos works well when transporting Space Marines/Bezerkers and similar.

Fist/Klaws just arent good any more since the change in stats and to vehicles. D3 damage is really bad, especially for a faction known for hard hitting CQC elites.

I think it would be wise to finally note a difference between klaws and fists. Make Klaws more expensive but with a more impactful statline. Maybe 3D on Klaws and D6D on Saws. Big choppas can go to AP -2 for the same price, and everything should have access to powerstabbas.

Orks need CC weapons akin to the thunder hammer statline not the power fist line.

 Dr.Duck wrote:
Fist/Klaws just arent good any more since the change in stats and to vehicles. D3 damage is really bad, especially for a faction known for hard hitting CQC elites.

I think it would be wise to finally note a difference between klaws and fists. Make Klaws more expensive but with a more impactful statline. Maybe 3D on Klaws and D6D on Saws. Big choppas can go to AP -2 for the same price, and everything should have access to powerstabbas.

Orks need CC weapons akin to the thunder hammer statline not the power fist line.

I second this. It'd be a cool parallel for our CC weapons to have consistent damage similar to our rokkits. Also, I'd personally just rename power stabbas to be "kustom choppas" just to make it more open to interpretation modelling wise since I know that technically speaking it refers to that weird harpoon weapon in the Nob kit, which is way to limited in quantity and design to be used more than twice on a model in an army.

 Jidmah wrote:


You have a really weird and skewed view of the current game. Units much cheaper than mega nobz can blow up those same models through shooting, without even bothering to charge.

Also you keep making things much better than they are. 5 Megannobz with PKs get to roll about 5 damage dice against a T8 model, assuming it has no invulnerable save or FNP, which would require 5x to do 30+ wounds.
I also asked for the modifier to be removed OR d6 damage. I guess you just want to freak out at the very thought of some ork options not being strictly worse than what everyone else gets.

My ideal concept about orks is that all their units cost half the SM equivalent. Like boyz compared to tacticals. Meganobz shouldn't be a deathstar but you could throw 10-15 of them in a 2000 points lists without investing tons of points, they should be actually half the points of terminators. Make them 30 points each and the trukk 40, now they're worthy again, even if pk are not as deadly as they were in 7th edition. That's the way to spam pks: in boyz/stormboyz units, in nobz/meganobz units, maybe in a biker squad, 1-2 warbosses, walkers, etc.... And don't forget ranged weapons, pks shouldn't be the entire anti tank in the list, you should field artillery, lootas, rokkits. I'm ok with all the current weapons profiles (witht he exception of the KMK which should be AP-4 and/or damage D6) but not their costs, you should be able to take 30-40 rokkits instead of 20, more lootas, more artillery, twice the kans, more bikes, etc...

But with the current points cost the army is unbalanced. I'd like an horde army with not only boyz.

No auto takes, like super pks, but a whole codex of cheap units that can be taken in huge numbers, none of them particularly killy. That's how orks should work IMHO.

 Blackie wrote:

No auto takes, like super pks, but a whole codex of cheap units that can be taken in huge numbers, none of them particularly killy. That's how orks should work IMHO.

I thought that you didn't like playing with a lot of models) I'd much prefer to have numerous models and army, but not green tide level of army

 koooaei wrote:
Trukk boyz will work when we get 'eavy armor back.

I don't think that trukk boyz are not viable because of low survivability, it is rather because 11 boys and Nob is too little to accomplish something. What would change with the addition of (properly) priced heavy armor option for boys? (or just a new unit of `ard boys)? Well, I mean what their purpose would be?

Also as a question for actual topic, how to properly use :
1).Kommandoes? I keep deploying them like deepstriking boys, charge a small MSU, wipe it out or cripple only for it to fall back and my kommandoes get shot to death by the rest of opponent army. They are yet to make their points back
2).Burnas and skorcha trakks? I now those are not very viable/overpriced, but I do like models and idea of gits doing da burny dance.

Manz have always been ~ equal to termintors. They've been choppier, tougher vs small arms fire but lacked invul, their shooting was worse and they've pretty much always been slower. They didn't function too well in 5-th because power weapons ignored 2+ armor and a lot of things had power weapons. Even fists were not a rare sight. Besides, there was a whole top-tier army of grey knights that countered meganobz badly. 6-th saw them being used as manz missiles from time to time. They've become really strong in 7-th with bully boyz formation that fixed their main issue - LD.

I don't think that manz should be that cheap. We should have an option for a small elite army. They should just function better. Get easier access to 1 more attack - something identical to Kanz buff - like 3+ manz get +1 attack. This would also be the reason to take larger squads. At the same time they should become A BIT cheaper - go down to 40 pts with a klaw+shoota. But that's only because klaws are not worth 25 pts atm. And trukks should become cheaper as well - even 60 pts for a current trukk would be great. That's all we need for functional manz.

 JawRippa wrote:

I thought that you didn't like playing with a lot of models) I'd much prefer to have numerous models and army, but not green tide level of army

I don't like playing with a lot of footslogging models I'd like to have numerous models too, but not only boyz, in fact I prefer the opposite concept, toyz over boyz. Lots of toyz

 koooaei wrote:
Manz have always been ~ equal to termintors. They've been choppier, tougher vs small arms fire but lacked invul, their shooting was worse and they've pretty much always been slower. They didn't function too well in 5-th because power weapons ignored 2+ armor and a lot of things had power weapons. Even fists were not a rare sight. Besides, there was a whole top-tier army of grey knights that countered meganobz badly. 6-th saw them being used as manz missiles from time to time. They've become really strong in 7-th with bully boyz formation that fixed their main issue - LD.

I don't think that manz should be that cheap. We should have an option for a small elite army. They should just function better. Get easier access to 1 more attack - something identical to Kanz buff - like 3+ manz get +1 attack. This would also be the reason to take larger squads. At the same time they should become A BIT cheaper - go down to 40 pts with a klaw+shoota. But that's only because klaws are not worth 25 pts atm. And trukks should become cheaper as well - even 60 pts for a current trukk would be great. That's all we need for functional manz.

In a world of multi-wound weapons, going from W1 to W2, but not having that 5+ invuln save makes them much, much worse.

If Klaws suck, then MANZ will suck - GW should replace their default Melee+Shooting weapons with custom named ones just for MANZ ("Mega-Klaw"?); that way their stats can be adjusted, but not impact the rest of the army. Hell; give them a custom vehicle too - "Mega-Trukk", a mid-level/cross between a battlewagon and a trukk; it could have two main options [think Meka-Dread style] - "Mega-Thrusters", which boosts its speed but is less survivable than a battlewagon (though more survivable than a trukk), and "Mega-Armor", which makes it tankier than a battlewagon, but not faster. The Mega-Trukk would only be able to transport models in Mega-Armor (Warboss/MANZ). -- The goal of these changes would be to give the player options for their unit; they could take a battlewagon (mid speed, mid armor), or a Mega-Trukk (high speed, low armor//high armor, low speed), depending on points, playstyle, if the MANZ ride around with other units, etc.

I'd like to MANZ to have that invuln save (perhaps because they/the boyz around them believe them to be unstoppable [Rule: "Da Biggest Boyz" - When a MANZ unit Leadership Characteristic is 8+ ("Mob Rule"/Warboss around, since it's 7 base), they have a 5+ Invulnerable save.); but what I really want, is a reason to take them - one that isn't just personal (fluffy/like the model/etc). They're the biggest and baddest Orks around, coupled with the heaviest armor and weaponry - the only one that can knock some sense is the Warboss; who should also have a reason to wear Mega-Armor.

fe40k wrote:


In a world of multi-wound weapons, going from W1 to W2, but not having that 5+ invuln save makes them much, much worse.

If Klaws suck, then MANZ will suck - GW should replace their default Melee+Shooting weapons with custom named ones just for MANZ ("Mega-Klaw"?); that way their stats can be adjusted, but not impact the rest of the army. Hell; give them a custom vehicle too - "Mega-Trukk", a mid-level/cross between a battlewagon and a trukk; it could have two main options [think Meka-Dread style] - "Mega-Thrusters", which boosts its speed but is less survivable than a battlewagon (though more survivable than a trukk), and "Mega-Armor", which makes it tankier than a battlewagon, but not faster. The Mega-Trukk would only be able to transport models in Mega-Armor (Warboss/MANZ). -- The goal of these changes would be to give the player options for their unit; they could take a battlewagon (mid speed, mid armor), or a Mega-Trukk (high speed, low armor//high armor, low speed), depending on points, playstyle, if the MANZ ride around with other units, etc.

I'd like to MANZ to have that invuln save (perhaps because they/the boyz around them believe them to be unstoppable [Rule: "Da Biggest Boyz" - When a MANZ unit Leadership Characteristic is 8+ ("Mob Rule"/Warboss around, since it's 7 base), they have a 5+ Invulnerable save.); but what I really want, is a reason to take them - one that isn't just personal (fluffy/like the model/etc). They're the biggest and baddest Orks around, coupled with the heaviest armor and weaponry - the only one that can knock some sense is the Warboss; who should also have a reason to wear Mega-Armor.

I don't see why the invulnerable save would even matter? How often do you use a 5++ save on a 2+ save model? And Manz are 3 wounds if I am not mistaken. If the 5++ invulnerable save was a 5 point upgrade, I doubt that anyone would take it.

The real problem for manz is that they are too expensive. They need a cheaper Klaw and Saw because they bring a lot of them. It is the boss nobs who would benefit most from a high damage expensive Klaw, like the suggested D6 damage klaw.

Well if we go way back to 2nd ed, Mega Armour had an internal medi-squig pack that gave MANZ a 4+ FNP. This is most certainly something that could come back and would help out MANZ far more than an invul save. Even if 4+ is too much, a 5+ FNP would be a great increase in survivability.

pismakron wrote:

fe40k wrote:


In a world of multi-wound weapons, going from W1 to W2, but not having that 5+ invuln save makes them much, much worse.

If Klaws suck, then MANZ will suck - GW should replace their default Melee+Shooting weapons with custom named ones just for MANZ ("Mega-Klaw"?); that way their stats can be adjusted, but not impact the rest of the army. Hell; give them a custom vehicle too - "Mega-Trukk", a mid-level/cross between a battlewagon and a trukk; it could have two main options [think Meka-Dread style] - "Mega-Thrusters", which boosts its speed but is less survivable than a battlewagon (though more survivable than a trukk), and "Mega-Armor", which makes it tankier than a battlewagon, but not faster. The Mega-Trukk would only be able to transport models in Mega-Armor (Warboss/MANZ). -- The goal of these changes would be to give the player options for their unit; they could take a battlewagon (mid speed, mid armor), or a Mega-Trukk (high speed, low armor//high armor, low speed), depending on points, playstyle, if the MANZ ride around with other units, etc.

I'd like to MANZ to have that invuln save (perhaps because they/the boyz around them believe them to be unstoppable [Rule: "Da Biggest Boyz" - When a MANZ unit Leadership Characteristic is 8+ ("Mob Rule"/Warboss around, since it's 7 base), they have a 5+ Invulnerable save.); but what I really want, is a reason to take them - one that isn't just personal (fluffy/like the model/etc). They're the biggest and baddest Orks around, coupled with the heaviest armor and weaponry - the only one that can knock some sense is the Warboss; who should also have a reason to wear Mega-Armor.

I don't see why the invulnerable save would even matter? How often do you use a 5++ save on a 2+ save model? And Manz are 3 wounds if I am not mistaken. If the 5++ invulnerable save was a 5 point upgrade, I doubt that anyone would take it.

The real problem for manz is that they are too expensive. They need a cheaper Klaw and Saw because they bring a lot of them. It is the boss nobs who would benefit most from a high damage expensive Klaw, like the suggested D6 damage klaw.

Part of it is cost, but I think that a rule for MA units that allowed them to ignore the -1 to hit penalties for "unwieldy weapons" or just giving them +1 to hit in close combat (since the only weapons they have are PK and Saws. If you took that away and slightly adjusted the weapon costs I think they would be decent for their cost. I think they work ok now in lists with lots of big targets.

If you did that and allowed a cybork upgrade, and allowed cybork to stack with pain boyz they would be more than fine.

Not sure whether it was discussed already UT with so many armies stacking - 1 to hit buffs, could this be the end of Shooty Orks?

A - 2 to hit would shut down their shooting completely, unless they write some kind of special rule that Ork shooting can never be worse than 6+. "Something-something Dakka"

So, here's a solution that never seemed to come up in the discussion of PKs, what if they were given a flat 3 damage instead of D3? That way, the 1 or 2 hits that a boyz boss nob gets would actually be a significant threat against vehicles but not infantry. You still wouldn't see them spammed all over the place, but a unit of Nobz with 2 or 3 of them could put a serious dent in something, or arming Tankbustas with hammers and a PK would make them a viable kamikaze attack. Also they would be comparable to sawz in that you could pick better damage or better AP, depending on what you are going against.

Addmitidly, both sawz and PKs need a point reduction still, but with 3 damage, the PK might not have to be reduced to spamming levels.