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yo yo yo errybody, I am going to be playing some nids tomorow and as they are the only 5th ed army i havnt played against very much I was wondering what where some general tips on taking them out? I know the guy will be using a tervigon, almost certainly the swarmlord and probably the doom of malantai. (its an escalation tournament). So any tips/advice would be great, thanks

What army you're playing would be useful to know.

Generally, shoot the big ones with anti-tank guns then shoot the little ones with everything else. Try to avoid getting into combat with the swarmlord and genestealers. Try to avoid driving too close to zoanthropes. Try to resist the urge to throw the doom of malantai across the room when it pods down into the middle of your army and kills half of it.

In the title it says he is using CSM.

Dont engage the swarmlord in CC, shoot him down at all costs.

A simple powerfist will take down the Doom of Malantai in one hit.

Otherwise just normal tactics for CSM. Shoot as much as you can, use powerfists to kill the big guys.

thanks for the info... i remeber reading the rules for the swarmlord and my jaw just hit the floor... also the fact that he isn't an ind. character is interesting. Also do you guys think Typhus or Abaddon are any good? I was hoping to use one of them (preferably both truthfully) but i am very concerned about typhus' lack of eternal warrior... so is he worth the risk?

odorofdeath wrote:thanks for the info... i remeber reading the rules for the swarmlord and my jaw just hit the floor... also the fact that he isn't an ind. character is interesting. Also do you guys think Typhus or Abaddon are any good? I was hoping to use one of them (preferably both truthfully) but i am very concerned about typhus' lack of eternal warrior... so is he worth the risk?

Abbadon is ok but typhus is far too expensive for his utility. If abbadon rolls a decent amount for his attacks (and doesnt stab himself in the foot) then he has a good chance of killing the swarmlord, but i think you are just better trying to shoot the damn thing. It has no inv save outside of combat so just lascannon/missile launcher it to death.

yeah, sad but true about typhus. hes so cool... i think i will just use a nurgle prince with rot for dealing with gaunts. i was planning on using havocs for the swarmlord, im glad im not too far off base. thanx guys

odorofdeath wrote:thanks for the info... i remeber reading the rules for the swarmlord and my jaw just hit the floor... also the fact that he isn't an ind. character is interesting. Also do you guys think Typhus or Abaddon are any good? I was hoping to use one of them (preferably both truthfully) but i am very concerned about typhus' lack of eternal warrior... so is he worth the risk?

There is a good chance abaddon will die before he puts even 3 wounds on the swarmlord. Swarmlord is WS9 with 5 wounds and makes abaddon re-roll his invulnerable saves. Hes gunna die fast. range is the safest way.

Wow.... well I guess there is a reason he's nearly 300 points. In that case Do you guys think Abaddon is even worth it? I mean there will be other armies at the tournament; mostly SM, but maybe some Orks and a dash of Eldar. Against any of those armies a DP would probably do just as well, if not better than Abby. He doesn't have a 1 in 6 chance of EDITED FOR LANGUAGE and he would be overkill against farseers/captains. Even against Ghaz I'm not sure I would want Abby. Not to mention a comparably powerful prince is usually 100ish points less...

Best thing about typhus versus tyranids is that he doesn't suffer from shadow of the warp to cast his innate psychic powers. The downside is his powers are a bit lackluster. None of the current CSM codex characters are anything close to what the loyalist space marines can bring. We have almost no force multipliers (and really none that are worthwhile) whereas the loyalists have one for almost any type of army you could want to bring.

I would probably recommend you take a barebones chaos lord (ie no upgrades except maybe a combi-melta) and spend your points on your troop sections + elites + heavy support. Daemon princes and sorcerers are solid choices normally but they will suffer badly against tyranids. Maybe take 2x DPs /w wings + MoN or 2x DPs /w just wings. I just think tyranids have plenty of ways to easily bring down your HQ so spending a lot of points there isn't a smart idea.

I heavily agree with halsfield here, dropping 275 points on abbadon is a waste. If i knew i was fighting tryanids i would focus points on troops and heavy support. Personally defilers have always been a favorite versus tryanids. Mainly because tryanids have no vehicles so his strength 8 ap3 template always has something nice to shoot at. Also there are less 2+ saves in new tryanids so AP3 gets the job done.

I play against nids quite a bit and i have one sentance for you. las cannons and dp kill large creatures.

You are fortunate in your matchup. It's hard to lose with CSM vs. Nids. 2 Lashes make a mockery of their list.

Stay out of Shadows range with your HQs, Lash them into templates and/or selected zerker charges. You ought to dominate without effort.

mrwittwer wrote:If i knew i was fighting tyranids i would focus points on troops and heavy support. Personally defilers have always been a favorite versus tyranids. Mainly because tyranids have no vehicles so his strength 8 ap3 template always has something nice to shoot at. Also there are less 2+ saves in new tyranids so AP3 gets the job done.

Thumbs up to all of this. Defilers are great for tearing into their large troop squads with ordnance. When they finally get up close they will have a hard time getting through that armor and they should get ground up nicely. Great all around unit for smashing anything on an objective from range or keeping them off if they're trying to take one.

40kenthusiast wrote:You are fortunate in your matchup. It's hard to lose with CSM vs. Nids. 2 Lashes make a mockery of their list.

Stay out of Shadows range with your HQs, Lash them into templates and/or selected zerker charges. You ought to dominate without effort.

I am currently banging my head against my desk. There. Done.

Anyway. Chaos =/= Dual Lash

Got it? You can suggest he use Dual Lash, at which point I will remind you of the effect 'Nids can have on psychic powers, but please, don't assume that all Chaos has is lash.

Best thing about typhus versus tyranids is that he doesn't suffer from shadow of the warp to cast his innate psychic powers. The downside is his powers are a bit lackluster. None of the current CSM codex characters are anything close to what the loyalist space marines can bring. We have almost no force multipliers (and really none that are worthwhile) whereas the loyalists have one for almost any type of army you could want to bring.

I would probably recommend you take a barebones chaos lord (ie no upgrades except maybe a combi-melta) and spend your points on your troop sections + elites + heavy support. Daemon princes and sorcerers are solid choices normally but they will suffer badly against tyranids. Maybe take 2x DPs /w wings + MoN or 2x DPs /w just wings. I just think tyranids have plenty of ways to easily bring down your HQ so spending a lot of points there isn't a smart idea.

Actually that was the whole reason I was going to take typhus, his being immune to perils and shadow. However I think for the smaller games I would just take a DP with wings and nurgles rot in case he gets swarmed.

Thanks for the tip about defilers, I will definetly run a couple of those in the bigger games. Now I think we all know how good lash is but at 500-1000 points I'm not sure its worth it. With lash you really need to max out your templates, and 1000 points doesnt leave a lot for oblits and defilers.

The lash has range and mobility to not always be hampered by Shadow of the Warp.

Lash is always a viable option just because it's so cheap.
________________
That aside,

My suggestion is, you will want to primarily bring stuff down through shooting and have combat as a secondary choice if the opponent is set up to receive charges.

Mad Rabbit wrote:

40kenthusiast wrote:You are fortunate in your matchup. It's hard to lose with CSM vs. Nids. 2 Lashes make a mockery of their list.

Stay out of Shadows range with your HQs, Lash them into templates and/or selected zerker charges. You ought to dominate without effort.

I am currently banging my head against my desk. There. Done.

Anyway. Chaos =/= Dual Lash

Got it? You can suggest he use Dual Lash, at which point I will remind you of the effect 'Nids can have on psychic powers, but please, don't assume that all Chaos has is lash.

There is more to chaos than duel lash, but against opponents like Tyranids who are almost completely defenseless against lash and vulnerable to chaos template weapons Lash becomes an I win power.

Shadow of the Warp is a next to useless psychic defense against a Lash prince played by an experience chaos player.

Shadow of the warp has a 12" range.

A Lash Prince has a 12" move.

Lash has a 24" range.

If the chaos player knows what they are doing Shadow of the Warp is next to useless as a psychic defense.

If a nasty synapse creature like the swarmlord starts to get too close the chaos player can just jump the deamon prince between 13" and 24" and Lash the swarmlord away from the action.

The swarmlord almost never gets cover, and will die quickly to krak missile fire from havoc squads. If the Swarmlord is lashed away from the chaos battle lines the swarmlord is going to have to endure an extra turn of krak missile fire, and if the Swarmlord gets near the 12" mark from the chaos line with 1 or 2 wounds remaining melta fire from Rhino access hatches will finish it off.

4 Rhinos with 4 havoc launchers tear gaunts & genestealers to pieces, even more so if they are lashed.

Tyranid warriors lashed into the open and clustered together die like grots to a defiler pie plate.

The "infamous", "Broken" and once upon a time "all powerful" chaos lash list doesn't work well against a lot of armies such as mech IG or mech anything, but it sure does continue to work damn good against bugs.

Sanctjud wrote:

Lash is always a viable option just because it's so cheap.

I agree that lash can be useful when you run into an army that it is useful against and that the points cost for a MoS + Lash isn't that bad. My issue however is that in a competitive setting most armies could care less about lash (mech, psychic defense, can kill DPs quickly/tarpit them/etc). I just don't see the intelligence of taking a fair amount of points for something that may be useful in less than the majority of games. Everything else about smart list building and tactics argues against this type of "just in case" strategy.

/shrug.
My 2 princes total up 260. That's barebones.
If I have 25 points, I throw it in.

The point of the CSM army these days (to win) is to de-mech mech.
Lash is diminished early game these days, but not later when stuff are booted out.

If the army fails to boot out the mech army, that is the failing of other aspects and not directly of lash.

Now, if one were to take Warptime instead, the DP would be helping with de-meching stuff, I know.
All I'm saying is that in my point of view, the army will create those situations where lash is effective.
If it is not, there is more going wrong than the choice to purchase lash.

As to all of the ways to counter it, all true...but just because something can go wrong doesn't mean one shouldn't take it.

Just because Fortune/doom can be blocked doesn't make Farseers take them less.
Just because Tyranids could lose their synergy pychic powers doesn't mean they don't take it.
Just because Wings could be blocked on a Furioso Dreads doesn't mean it won't be taken.

As I have said in the past, Lash is only gak when the wielder relies on it. Using it as a power of oppurtunity (which goes hand in hand with the whole de-meching idea) it will do what it does well.

At the end of the day, I agree with the line that it's useful but diminished. Though I don't think it has diminished as much as people think it has. I think it was just overexaggerated from the beginning and so looks now to have dropped by a huge margin...though that's not how I feel about it.