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Yep, I'm going to take Chaos Daemons. After two weekends of playtesting, I think I've settled on a list.

HQ: Bloodthirster /w unholy might
HQ: Fateweaver

E: 8 Bloodcrushers, Chaos icon, fury of Khorne, instrument of Chaos
E: 6 Fiends, unholy might
E: 6 Fiends, unholy might

T: 16 Bloodletters, Chaos icon
T: 10 Plaguebearers, Chaos icon
T: 5 Horrors, Bolt of Tzeentch
T: 5 Horrors, Bolt of Tzeentch
T: 5 Horrors, Bolt of Tzeentch

FA: 6 Screamers

HS: Soul Grinder, tongue
HS: Soul Grinder, tongue

I am considering some small modifications.
#1 - Dropping the icon on the bloodletters. That leaves me with enough points to upgrade one of the horrors to the Changeling, add one more plaguebearer, and add blessing of the blood god for the bloodthirster.

#2 - Similarly, I'm considering dropping one of the screamers to get the points for the changeling upgrade, which also leaves enough for some random upgrades (although not enough for another plaguebearer)

#3 - A lot more radically, I'm tossing around the idea of exchanging the Soul Grinders for Daemon Princes.

Thoughts and comments?

I haven't personally used Chaos Daemons, so you probably know more than I from play testing. But even without Eternal Warrior, those Daemon Princes have a lot of wounds, and can be upgraded very nicely. I think they're a worthy addiction to any chaos army, and as MCs they could tank bust just as well, maybe give them demonic flight if possible?

I love Fiends, they're just ridiculously incredible models for the price, I like to see those squads mixed in with the blood crushers.

Are the 6 screams just a suicide rush on some heavy tank with the meltabombs?

I personally think fateweaver is just too damn expensive, but that's because I really like Bloodthirsters and heralds more. But he's a super model, but think of more much more you could field if you just made him skarbrand, or a second Bloodthirster?

Those are my thoughts on it. It really does look hella scary

I find the SoulGrinders die far to quickly. Being the only armor on the list they get melta'd way too quickly every game I use them. I would trip your plague bearers down for the points you want for other things, even 5 in cover that go to ground can be so very hard to kill it's not funny.

I've found soul grinders to be incredibly useful, even with their ability to be killed by a single shot. There are very few weapons in the game that can reliably kill them at a range greater than 12" - Tau Rail Guns are about it. There's the chance of them going down early...but really, I've found that as long as my grinders are properly supported, it doesn't matter so much.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Koski wrote:
Are the 6 screams just a suicide rush on some heavy tank with the meltabombs?

Basically, yes. I had about 100 points left over, and it was between 6 of them, and possibly another squad of horrors or some more plaguebearers. In my test games, 6 screamers provided some much-needed flexibility, either with their ability to hunt tanks, or just by their ability to zoom around and turbo-boost since they move as jetbikes.

Koski wrote:
I personally think fateweaver is just too damn expensive, but that's because I really like Bloodthirsters and heralds more. But he's a super model, but think of more much more you could field if you just made him skarbrand, or a second Bloodthirster?

I've tossed around the idea of a 2nd greater deamon, or some heralds. But fateweaver not only aids in survivability of all the stuff nearby, he also lays down some pretty impressive firepower, and with we are legion and master of sorcery, can engage multiple targets effectively.

Check out this site, Capture and Control: Preparing for 'Ard Boyz they have a cool article on preparing for the Ard Boyz. I like the list you are bringing. I am definitely in favor of dropping the Soul Grinders for DPs. The Soul Grinders will probably only get one round of shooting in before they are wiped off the table, DPs seem to draw less fire and last a little longer.

I would say dropping the icon is a good idea, you don't need one more PB per say but having the upgrade for your bloodthirster is a good idea. At the large point scale games plus with the Angels and wolves running around the extra defense is nice.

Soul Grinders are awesome and I run three in my normal list, however at 2500 points the amount of melta and anti tank on the board is IMHO going to make you wish you had brought some DP's instead. They won't really die to a lucky shot, plus they are a little easier to DeepStrike since they have a smaller footprint, (the board can get full at this points level I feel) Not to mention if you take a zinch DP with bolt its actually 20 points cheaper giving you the points for your upgrades your looking for and just about filling the same role as the Grinder in your list.

I would personally suggest what ever you decide considering squeezing in one more 5 man PB squad to give you one more scoring troop choice to hold a obj or to tie up something. At 75 points its a pretty good deal and might come in handy as a hiding unit in cover.

jaweyermuller wrote:Check out this site, Capture and Control: Preparing for 'Ard Boyz they have a cool article on preparing for the Ard Boyz. I like the list you are bringing. I am definitely in favor of dropping the Soul Grinders for DPs. The Soul Grinders will probably only get one round of shooting in before they are wiped off the table, DPs seem to draw less fire and last a little longer.

The main problem with dropping the soul grinders is this:

Soul Grinders have several awesome strengths, especially the way I have them configured. In no particular order:

#1 - The tongue. S10 AP1 is incredibly useful, especially on the drop.

#2 - Resilience. Yes, certain weapons can one-shot them. However, most of those weapons are unreliable at best. Even a lascannon, if it hits, has a 72% chance of not doing anything, and only a 19.4% chance of dying or becoming immobilized. Those are reasonably good odds. As long as it can move, its a threat. It also has near-absolute immunity to any weapons S6 or lower, which makes it an excellent tar-pit unit.

#3 - Speed. Fleet gives it a surprising amount of speed.

#4 - Flexibility. Mainly, soul grinder tear things apart in hand to hand. but with the tongue, I can also either lay down that S6 template of goodness, or in a pinch, use the tongue. In assault, the S10 autokills T5, and can do a number against most vehicles.

Daemon Princes by no means compare. At best, they can take a S8 AP1 shot, which will hit more often...but at a cost. Resiliency-wise, they could take advantage of fateweaver, but 3+/5+ or a 4++ helps against the big guns, but doesn't really help all that much against massed low-strength weaponry. To make DP's fast, you need to spend a ridiculous amount of points. And the same with flexibility...it's theoretically possible to build a combination shooter/assaulter, but you're talking about spending nearly twice as many points to do so.

Matching up points, the best comparison to the soul grinder would be a tzeentch prince with bolt and gaze. Points are the same...but the soul grinder is, I think, better in a wider variety situations. A pavane prince serves a different purpose altogether (and at 150 points, I'm tempted to replace the screamers with him) to get anything remotely resembling the resiliency, mobility, and flexibility of the soul grinder, you've got to spend well over 200 points.

On another note Centurian I just switched my grinders to Tongue instead of phlegm the last few games to test it out. How has having the rail shot worked out for you so far? Any thoughts one way or the other? Just wondering kind of results you have been having with it so far..

Other than that Good luck and I look forward to reading your ard boys battle reports if you post em up. Always nice to see how the other demon players are doing. Also what is working for them. (I should stop being lazy and post mine when I play too =( )

Drkmorals wrote:On another note Centurian I just switched my grinders to Tongue instead of phlegm the last few games to test it out. How has having the rail shot worked out for you so far? Any thoughts one way or the other? Just wondering kind of results you have been having with it so far..

I've found tongue to be very useful in Ard Boyz play. At 1850, I usually run the grinder naked, but at 2500, 50 points isn't all that much, and the ability to shoot on the turn that it arrives is quite useful. It also means that if the grind is immobilized, its not totally out of the game.

I've found, though, that most of the time after the grinders land, I'd rather run with them than shoot, unless my opponent is spamming land raiders. Even when I need sixes to hit, if the choice is between guaranteeing a charge, or shooting, I'd rather make the charge more certain.

I too am running deamonsand Iwouldalso like to run Fateweaver. I am not going to do it though as too many players out there are running guard and have those damn psyker squads along with inquisitors at 2500. Pretty much a guarantee Fateweaver will disappear after the inquisitor blasts him if his Ld is dropped. I love Fateweaver but I think too many Guard players will have his Kryptonite.

I think the Soulgrinders are fine, and I like their versitility as well. For the same cost a Deamon Prince of Tzeentch w/ bolt and gaze is also a melee threat as well as a shooting threat. It has the same range for shooting but is more accurate. It certainly doesnt cover the same ground though to get into melee. I think its situational which one is more useful.

If you consider dropping Fateweaver Id consider Skulltaker and another herald that can shoot. Skulltaker will be usefull vs the nids and those damn wolf cavalry.

Just some things to consider.

I'm a little worried about your troops selection. At 2500pts, I don't know if they will be able to tough it out... Would you consider dropping some of the horrors for some plaguebearers? I personally like my troops resilient, but not that killy, so as not to draw fire.

Except when I play orks.

Btw, good on you for running daemons!

I understand the strengths of the Soul Grinder. I also understand it's weakness vs. enemy Dreads. MC's are the cure for enemy dreads and it's hard not to take a list with at least 2 MC's that can help clear dreads off of your units. Do you have enough, right now, to keep enemy dreads off your troops and crushers?

DarthDiggler wrote:I understand the strengths of the Soul Grinder. I also understand it's weakness vs. enemy Dreads. MC's are the cure for enemy dreads and it's hard not to take a list with at least 2 MC's that can help clear dreads off of your units. Do you have enough, right now, to keep enemy dreads off your troops and crushers?

Probably. Between the Bloodthirster, Fateweaver, Fiends, and (in a pinch) Screamers, a little under half can take out dreads fairly reliably.

Warboss Gutrip wrote:I'm a little worried about your troops selection. At 2500pts, I don't know if they will be able to tough it out... Would you consider dropping some of the horrors for some plaguebearers? I personally like my troops resilient, but not that killy, so as not to draw fire.

I'm hesitant to do that. I'd rather limit my units that do nothing except not die. One squad usually gets the job done and I've found that in most situations, its better to keep my offensive abilities up.

Norbu the Destroyer wrote:I too am running deamonsand Iwouldalso like to run Fateweaver. I am not going to do it though as too many players out there are running guard and have those damn psyker squads along with inquisitors at 2500. Pretty much a guarantee Fateweaver will disappear after the inquisitor blasts him if his Ld is dropped. I love Fateweaver but I think too many Guard players will have his Kryptonite.

I think the Soulgrinders are fine, and I like their versitility as well. For the same cost a Deamon Prince of Tzeentch w/ bolt and gaze is also a melee threat as well as a shooting threat. It has the same range for shooting but is more accurate. It certainly doesnt cover the same ground though to get into melee. I think its situational which one is more useful.

If you consider dropping Fateweaver Id consider Skulltaker and another herald that can shoot. Skulltaker will be usefull vs the nids and those damn wolf cavalry.

Just some things to consider.

The problem with dropping fateweaver is that for his points, he's a steal. A regular Lord of Change with gift options costs more than he does, and that doesn't even figure in his ability to make everything around him tougher. I would love to take Skulltaker, but with the remaining 158 points, while that's enough points for a daemon prince, I lose the shootiness and flexibility that fateweaver offers. I'll admit that I'm worried about psyker battle squads, but its not nescessarilly a game-killer.

Things I've learned after taking Daemons to Ard Boyz the past 2 years:

Relying on hand-to-hand for tank-busting makes things difficult.

Null-zone and mystics will ruin your day.

As for the list, I would suggest dropping the screamers, adding the changeling, running 3 naked SG's, and dropping enough PB's to max out the bloodletter squad.

adam_gipson wrote:Things I've learned after taking Daemons to Ard Boyz the past 2 years:

Relying on hand-to-hand for tank-busting makes things difficult.

Null-zone and mystics will ruin your day.

As for the list, I would suggest dropping the screamers, adding the changeling, running 3 naked SG's, and dropping enough PB's to max out the bloodletter squad.

Took a similar list last year...flamers instead of fiends, a pavane prince instead of the screamers, and 2 larger squads of horrors in place of the third. Stomped through the first two rounds and the first game of the finals, then had some bad luck.

Mystics...not an issue, really. Average roll is 14", which leaves some openings. Null Zone is a pain, but Fateweaver cancels, and the trick is that cover and armor saves are still allowed. Hand to hand does make tank busting a bit more difficult, but...not really. Had plenty of tournament experience to back that up.

The screamers are something relatively new... I used them when daemons first came out, then put them on the shelf for about the last two years. Started trying them again, and they actually seem to be quite useful. The trick seems to be fielding enough of them. 1 squad of six works better than 2 squads of three.

I agree that mystics aren't as bad as the null zone, but at 2500 points it can get really crowded on the board.

What makes using hand-to-hand for tank-busting so difficult is that even if you can keep up with it, get the 6's you need to hit, and manage to destroy it, you then have to deal with the passengers getting out and probably wiping you out on their next turn.

That's true...but there's not a lot that can wipe out 8 bloodcrushers in one turn.