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So I’ve just recently persuaded a friend to start his first 40k army after a long time of borrowing other peoples and just being around the game he has a fairly firm grasp on the game as a whole. That being said he has decided that Chaos space marines are his army of choice in both play style and the models. He really enjoys the look and feel of a Nurgle based army. And since he’s new to the game I’m looking for some advice to help him out since I have almost no experience with CSM

#1 is the battle force a good place to start? I know some battle forces are better than others and was wondering if the CSM one is good or is it better to just pick and choose?

#2 is a Nurgle theme doable, should I advise him to mix in different units instead of going all Nurgle?

#3 what units do CSM players never leave home without and what units should only be deployed in a display case?

#4 Finally starting off he would need about 750pts to jump in with, what works at that point level, if you have a 750pt list you have had success with I’d love to see it

Thanks in advance

The battleforce probably isnt worth it if you want a nurgle army. Basic CSM arent as good as the other troop choices. Possessed downright suck. The berzerkers and the rhino are good, but not worth paying all that money for.

Nurgle can be quite good. Plague marines are a massive pain in the are to kill and are quite flexible. Nurgle princes are some of the best.

Unfortunately the chaos codex was messed about with too much when it was written so while some units are very very powerful, others almost never see play.

Lords are very expensive for achieving very little. Princes and Sorcerers are better in every respect.

Dreads and possessed are too random to be able to use as effectively as other choices. Chosen are ok but can get expensive quickly. Terminators can quite good.

Plague marines, berzerkers and noise marines are good, but 1Ksons are far too overprices (due to the nature of their abilities and 5th.ed coves saves). CSM are fairly priced but arent as good as other troop choices.

CSM fast attack is generally terrible. Stay away from bikes at all cost. Raptors are far too expensive and tend to run away quite quickly.

For heavy support, oblits are fantastic, defilers are ok (not as good as oblits but useful if you are fighting lots of skull crushers or nids), landraiders are a bit confused about what they should be doing but can be good if used properly, preds are ok but not as good as oblits, havoc are good if you want a good weight of fire, but die rather quickly and can be broken in combat and with shooting (so aren't as good as oblits).

To start off with i suggest a demon prince. Try to model some wings on it because they are far too slow without them. A big MC is great in small games. Then get a couple of squads of plague marines in rhinos to give them extra protection and mobility, and then either a couple of oblits or a defiler.

Edit:

Forgot to mention summoned demons. Lesser demons arent as good as basic CSM, which arent as good as cult troops, so probably not worth it. Greater demons can be very powerful but aren't so much in small games, where you have to sacrifice a champion. When your friend gets his army to about 1500pts them he can pick one up if he likes.

You could do at 750:

winged demon prince, either MoN or warptime,
2x 7-man PM squads, rhino, 2x meltas
2x oblits

for the points you are talking about- a little wiggle room here and there for different weapons or demon powers.

Alright thanks for the help that list seems straight to the point tactically is there any intricacies or things to keep in mind while playing with the 2 plague squads in rhinos? And also what should the oblits be doing tactically?

I would recommend staying away from the Battleforce for the reason mentioned above. Possessed are display case units. You'll never see them in a valid Chaos list.

A Nurgle theme can easily be done, but it's going to be very hard to do at low point levels. My advice is to start out with the basics and work with units that can run with Vanilla and Nurgle flavors. Many units can be themed simply by the Mark you pay to put on them: Daemon Prince, Chaos Lord, Chaos Sorcerer, Chosen CSM, Terminators, Vanilla CSM, Bikers, Raptors, and Havocs. Most of those units are very usable in a viable Army list.

Must have units (depending on who you ask) are:
Daemon Prince (buy the Nurgle one if that's the theme you plan to pursue)
vanilla Chaos Space Marines (which can double for Chosen or Havocs)
Plague Marines
Rhinos
Obliterators

Things you can upgrade with later:
Defilers
Predators/Vindicators
Terminators.

A good 750 point list might be:
Daemon Prince (175)
Wings, Mark of Nurgle, Warptime

Obliterator (75)

Plague Marines x7: (246)
Plague Champion, Power Weapon, Meltagun x2, Rhino

Chaos Space Marines x10: (255)
Aspiring Champion, Power Fist, Meltagun x2, Rhino

751 points.

Pretty straight forward. DP can Deep Strike if you choose, but with wings has enough mobility to get across the table quickly and into close combat where he can't be shot by outside units. He can also be a Tank buster if you need him to, but remember vehicles can retreat out of close combat, leaving your DP wide open for a shooty attack. Remember to do a Psychic test for Warptime at the start of both turns; yours AND his.

Oblits can either Deep Strike for a 6"Melta or 12" Multi-Melta rear armour attack, or can be placed in high cover with a good view of the playing field for 48" Lascannon shots on armour and important targets.

Plague Marines are excellent objective campers. They can be equipped with 2 x Plasma Guns for 10 more points, if you drop something to find points somewhere else. The Meltas are basically for killing armour heading to your objective and guaranteed kills on units attacking your objective. Keep the Plague Marines in the Rhino and fire 2 Melta/Plasma shot each turn from the top hatch.

Chaos Space Marines can either sit back and wait to see what happens, or go out hunting Armour or Objectives. Pop Smoke if you do go out hunting, and fire two Melta shots from the top hatch as you ride along.

Hope this helps.

The Chaos rhino only has one fire point if I recall correctly, but yeah- pretty much .

Another troop alternative is to have one squad of plain CSM with a an IoN. They aren't exactlly the same as plague marines, but they bring a few more bolter shots for the same cost, which you may want at this point level.

But you won't go wrong with PMs.

One fire point that 2 people can shoot out of IIRC.
No, IoN is never a good option on CSMs.

I rather not play Chaos than to use IoN on CSMs.

Mizzri wrote:
Plague Marines are excellent objective campers. They can be equipped with 2 x Plasma Guns for 10 more points, if you drop something to find points somewhere else.

Plasma Guns are 15pts... each... so a little more trimming to be done here I suspect.

I think it's important to re-iterate that the Daemon Prince will be of vital importance at such a small points value. I love 750pts myself, I have a CSM Slaanesh army and the Daemon Prince get the MVP award in most games! I also like Obliterators, but I'm not sure I'd advise using them at this level. Yes they're good, but they're unbelievably expensive! 10% of your points on a model that will roll over the first time it gets hit with a lascannon. Ok, there won't be lascannons in abundance at this level, but there'll be a boat load of meltas!

Alright is there any substitute or something that works equally well at this point level that the oblit should be replaced with?

A single Oblit is going to be hard to replace. Havocs with a single Lascannon is going to cost you 110 points (minimum 5 models x 15 points each + 35 points for the Lascannon upgrade). That does give you 5 wounds, but doesn't give you the Deep Strike, 2+ Armour Save, +5 Inv Save, Weapon Switch, or Power Fist. It's hard to justify not going with an Oblit.

A Predator can be had for as cheap as 70 points, but most people will invest either 35 points into a TL-Lascannon or 30 points into Heavy Bolter Sponsons. It's harder to kill than an Oblit, but not nearly as flexible. Again, the Oblit makes more sense.

A few things I didn't see:

Regular CSM are, in fact, the best troops choice in the army.

While PM's are good at holding objectives, they cost 50% more and die just as easily against things like TH/SS (which you'll see alot of), Tyranid MC's and other DP's. They are worse offensively in CC due to lower numbers.

Berzerkers are alright but as soon as you need to open a rhino or worse a landraider to get at the insides with them you are screwed.

Noise marines and TSons are too expensive for what they do.

Basically it comes down to the fact taht CSM can carry 2 MGs and an IoCG so you don't have to have fearless. They are less expensive but against many opponents are just as effective at killing as their cultist counterparts. The things that the cult troops do better than the CSM are not worth the points cost.

Standard load out for them is 10 in a rhino with 2x MG, PF and IoCG. Try it.

Defilers are gigantic and die instantly. If you use them be prepared to lose them alot.

I disagree with your dismissal of the cult troops, Pom. They're more specialised, yeah, but certainly not worse. If you're familiar with your enemy already they could be much better. For instance I use Noise Marines as MEQ killers... higher initiative, LoS and an AP3 template weapon? It's great!

I love Plague Marines as Objective campers with Meltas or Plasma Guns.

I frequently use Khorne Berserkers as Objective takers.

I'm working on a 10-man Noise Marine unit, because nothing annoys me more about CSM than not being able to shoot before Assaulting due to Rapid Fire rules. Having a 24" Heavy3 or Assault 2 option is well worth the extra cost.

CSM Rhino can allow 2 to shoot from the inside according to the most recent Errata PDF provided by GWS in case there was any doubt left.

i wish i had this thread when i Re-started 40k.

The defiler serves an awesome purpose though.... Its 150 points of "LOOKIT ME LOOKIT ME" dont ever take one in a game smaller than 1500 points.

also, I have recently discovered that the CSM lesser Daemons may assault the turn they deepstrike. Also, Plague Marines dont have to take a sarge to take an Icon.

POM is right and wrong. if you want quantity he is right. If you want quality he is wrong. yes some things wipe the floor with PMs but no unit is invincible or perfect. and while some powerful units and weapons can wipe the floor with PMs, more than half the time those are weapons not intended to be brought down upon a 5 man squad. So they effectively waste your opponents time. however you can get more generic troops by going generic. could be the difference between an extra squad or not.

also Oblits are 100% pure win. everyone here has given you advice i had to learn the hard way. Its all good advice.

Quientin wrote:Also, Plague Marines dont have to take a sarge to take an Icon.

Plagues Marines can't take an Icon. They have Mark of Nurgle already included in their profile. They cannot add an IoCG nor any other Icon due to that slot already being taken by Mark of Nurgle.

They can get a shiney personal icon for your Lesser Daemon and Termy usage .

You are correct. very much my bad. Apologies to Quientin.

I think getting two squads of five lesser daemons is a good idea. You can get those awesome nurgle daemon models.. And just slap Icon of Nurgle on a x10 Chaos marine squad (maybe you want heavy weapons) or put an Icon with the Plague Marines.

I personally see taking 1-2 squads of plague marines, then at least 1-2 squads of regular CSM with Icon of Chaos as the nicest way to maximize troop potential. You have large numbers of rerolling morale tests in 3+ save power armor. Then some hard hitting, resilient nurgle marines.

Quientin wrote:also, I have recently discovered that the CSM lesser Daemons may assault the turn they deepstrike. Also, Plague Marines dont have to take a sarge to take an Icon.

Really? I did not know this... I guess I skipped over their pages after glancing at their stat line...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tantras wrote:

Quientin wrote:also, I have recently discovered that the CSM lesser Daemons may assault the turn they deepstrike. Also, Plague Marines dont have to take a sarge to take an Icon.

Really? I did not know this... I guess I skipped over their pages after glancing at their stat line...

Hmm, had a quick flick through the codex this morning... couldn't see anything about this. Anybody have a page reference or something?

@Koski:
Again, IoN CSM are full of fail...I'd rather go to jail for murder and rape than to use IoN CSM...they are seriously that bad wrt points:return ratio.

In addition, 5 man lesser daemons are a horrible idea...7 man squads are a bit fluffier, but to get even a glimmer of hope out of them you'll need 8 members...better at 10, while they shine at 20.

Objective holding is not as good a role for them if they are just essentialy 5 MEQs wrt their durability when gone to ground. No where near the word 'reliable'.

@Tantras:
Yup, the personal icon can be placed on anyone in the squad, a joe plague marine or the champ (should there be one).

@Quientin:

I have recently discovered that the CSM lesser Daemons may assault the turn they deepstrike.

Really? Forgive me if this sounds rude, but I laughed. That is basically the whole reason they existed for at least 2 Editions...
It is generally their only saving grace...

Sanctjud wrote:@Tantras:
Yup, the personal icon can be placed on anyone in the squad, a joe plague marine or the champ (should there be one).

Whoops, my bad. I was looking for info on the assaulting the turn they DS, not the PI.

opps wasnt thinking. Nurgle is about the only one you SHOULDNT use his mark on anyone. Feel No Pain is the most useful aspect of them, and it doesnt convey. Specially when it costs the most.