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Without getting into how "ridiculous" missions are, or complaining about what armies are screwed over I want a legitimate discussion about the missions.

Here are some points I think are legitimate questions about the missions

1) How should TO's rule on units that move over 6" in a phase. To be specific Drop Pods and Soul Grinders. Our TO says he will count those as units that move 6" or more because they deepstrike at cruising speed. I dont agree but Im not running the tournament, I was curious on what others thought.

2) As I read it, whoever wins the roll off for turn 1 on mission 1 goes first unless initiative is stolen. Is this how others are reading it?? It seems winning the roll off does not give you the choice, just gives you the choice of deployment zone and the game begins.


Dont know if anyone else sees any issues with the missions. Just curious.

Same here, except he wants to rule that deamons don't count as 3kps each because they have to deepstrike.

I am curious if every unit who can charge 12 will be 3, wyches who roll 1's and genestealers for example? The droppods and daemons are just the bit of the iceberg. I think they need to make a list of whats 3. I can't imagine with all of the cloudy rules already from the codexs we need anymore descressionary rules calls deciding points for the tourny. It seems to hurt more armies than it really is intended for. I heard a lot of people today talking about changing theirs lists 100% to make them more foot based. I think thats a major mistake to switch your most comfortable gameplay for a single mission. I think the First mission setup will be very interesting to deal with. I too agree on the lack of rolling clarification on the first mission. It says nothing about siezing the initiative being in play. So I assume whoever wins chooses side and I would also assume picks who sets up first?? They really seem to have a very rushed and incomplete feel. I am a little worried about my local shop its rather new to the gaming side. Its a big card and comic shop but none of the employees have warhammer experence and I just know its going to be a mess when rules questions arise from the books and the missions arn't making that any easier.

as far as mission 3 goes, with the moving more than 6" in a single phase, I think that deep striking vehicles would count as 3KP (it says the count as moving at cruising speed) however deep striking infantry and monstrous creatures would not count as 3KP, because they are not moving, but deploying, and no part of the rules says the count as moving more than 6" for any reason.

An interesting side note though; All ork units with waaaagh special rule give up 3 killpoints, because on the turn they waaagh they have fleet, and can move more than 6" in an assault.

I think a drop pod should be one as it never really moves after deployment.

nvm, just read the rule that says running and fleeting don't count.

I would say that drop pods should only count as 1kp. Its simple wording. The drop pod rules state that it counts as moving at crusing speed. A speed which is is dictated by moving over 6" and up to 12" in most cases. Then there is the immobile rule which says drop pods may not move.

The mission states tha units capable of moving more then 6" count as 3kp.

A logical person would ask "Can a drop pod ever move more then 6?" "No". It can only "count as" having moved at crusing speed, not actually move at crusing speed. Thus it cannot ever move over 6". There is a big difference between counting as doing something and actually doing something. They are two different things.

Edit: Grammer

Mission 2 question: Ork player takes deff dread as troops, meaning it's scoring can it still score if immobilized, with no weapons still working?

Only NON-vehicle (and non-swarm) Troops are Scoring Units, so the Dread would not count regardless.

Aduro wrote:Only NON-vehicle (and non-swarm) Troops are Scoring Units, so the Dread would not count regardless.

Dreads are not vehicles, they are walkers. Would have to look at the brb but if your wording is correct, they would count.

Honersstodnt wrote:as far as mission 3 goes, with the moving more than 6" in a single phase, I think that deep striking vehicles would count as 3KP (it says the count as moving at cruising speed) however deep striking infantry and monstrous creatures would not count as 3KP, because they are not moving, but deploying, and no part of the rules says the count as moving more than 6" for any reason.

An interesting side note though; All ork units with waaaagh special rule give up 3 killpoints, because on the turn they waaagh they have fleet, and can move more than 6" in an assault.

I don't get why people keep thinking an Ork's Waaagh is allowing them to move more than 6". Even if there wasn't a special rule that said Fleet and Running don't count.

Orks can move up to 6" in the Movement phase, same as any other unit. They can run up to 6" in the Shooting Phase (based on 1d6), same as any other infantry unit. They can Assault up to 6" in the assault phase (after running). Same as any unit without fleet that didn't run. Waagh does NOT add any "extra movement" to any phase.

So, unless EVERY SINGLE UNIT counts for 3kp, in which case the scenario is null, then Ork infantry units don't count. So, obviously, it's for things that have the capability or potential to move MORE than 6" in the movement phase (or perhaps any given phase).

Stirling: Sorry, but you are wrong my friend.
Nothing with an AV or a swam may hold an abjective.

Stirling wrote:

Aduro wrote:Only NON-vehicle (and non-swarm) Troops are Scoring Units, so the Dread would not count regardless.

Dreads are not vehicles, they are walkers. Would have to look at the brb but if your wording is correct, they would count.

Dreadnoughts and Walkers are also vehicles. They're handily located in the vehicle section of the BRB for your perusal.

jtw1n wrote:I think a drop pod should be one as it never really moves after deployment.

I agree. Particularly since scattering isn't really moving, it's just an adjustment to where the unit is deployed...

It feels like the whole 3 KP thing is designed to cripple IG in general, probably in an effort to stop the leafblower lists everyone keeps talking about. 12" or greater movement is 10/14 units in my list, and I'm not even running leafblower. Frankly, I'm not even sure how to go about that mission. It seems moderately arbitrary at best. We shall have to see how it plays out.

Norbu the Destroyer wrote:Without getting into how "ridiculous" missions are, or complaining about what armies are screwed over I want a legitimate discussion about the missions.

Here are some points I think are legitimate questions about the missions

1) How should TO's rule on units that move over 6" in a phase. To be specific Drop Pods and Soul Grinders. Our TO says he will count those as units that move 6" or more because they deepstrike at cruising speed. I dont agree but Im not running the tournament, I was curious on what others thought.

2) As I read it, whoever wins the roll off for turn 1 on mission 1 goes first unless initiative is stolen. Is this how others are reading it?? It seems winning the roll off does not give you the choice, just gives you the choice of deployment zone and the game begins.


Dont know if anyone else sees any issues with the missions. Just curious.

Soul grinders would not count. They are walkers and therefor move as infantry. This is why they can deepstrike and still shoot, while other vehicles cant most of the time

I dont see IG as cripple at all.. You dont HAVE to use 8 chimeras.. Personally Im using 3 and artillery, its still a very solid army with 28 KPs in mission 3

Punishing opponents for taking fast moving units.. how does that not help IG?

Stirling wrote:

Aduro wrote:Only NON-vehicle (and non-swarm) Troops are Scoring Units, so the Dread would not count regardless.

Dreads are not vehicles, they are walkers. Would have to look at the brb but if your wording is correct, they would count.

Where do people get this? I hate to single you out, but I've heard this several times from several people, including some local ones. How is a Walker any less of a vehicle than a Tank or a Skimmer? They have an Armor Value for their different sides. They use the Vehicle damage charts. What justification is there to say they're Not vehicles?

Just emailed my TO about the issue with drop pods. My feeling on them is that since they cannot move after they land, they should only count as 1kp

Another potential thought: what about terminators who have the deepstrike ability but choose not to use it? If you judge Drop pods to by 3kp, then anything that deepstrikes must follow that as well. So what would my combat squaded Assualt Terminators count as? A) 2 kp, because I combat squaded. B) 6 kp because each has the potential to deep strike. C) 4kp because they cannot combat squad until after they deepstrike, which means that only one of the two can actually "move more than 6""

Any Thought?

CreepyCrawly wrote:Just emailed my TO about the issue with drop pods. My feeling on them is that since they cannot move after they land, they should only count as 1kp

Another potential thought: what about terminators who have the deepstrike ability but choose not to use it? If you judge Drop pods to by 3kp, then anything that deepstrikes must follow that as well. So what would my combat squaded Assualt Terminators count as? A) 2 kp, because I combat squaded. B) 6 kp because each has the potential to deep strike. C) 4kp because they cannot combat squad until after they deepstrike, which means that only one of the two can actually "move more than 6""

Any Thought?

It would only apply to vehicles, as they have a rule that says they count as having moved at Cruising Speed the turn they arrived, and Cruising Speed is more than 6". Non-vehicles merely count as having moved, but with no speed given.

I hope that the purpose of the Gate of Infinity/Monolith portal example is to illustrate a point that any mechanism to move more than 6" during any phase of the game qualifies for three kill points, and that one unit causing another unit to move more than 6" doesn't cause a unit to qualify. Oh, if only we could hope for a last minute FAQ.

Aduro wrote:

CreepyCrawly wrote:Just emailed my TO about the issue with drop pods. My feeling on them is that since they cannot move after they land, they should only count as 1kp

Another potential thought: what about terminators who have the deepstrike ability but choose not to use it? If you judge Drop pods to by 3kp, then anything that deepstrikes must follow that as well. So what would my combat squaded Assualt Terminators count as? A) 2 kp, because I combat squaded. B) 6 kp because each has the potential to deep strike. C) 4kp because they cannot combat squad until after they deepstrike, which means that only one of the two can actually "move more than 6""

Any Thought?

It would only apply to vehicles, as they have a rule that says they count as having moved at Cruising Speed the turn they arrived, and Cruising Speed is more than 6". Non-vehicles merely count as having moved, but with no speed given.

Right... Over 6" doesn't equal 12" though. Deep Striking vehicles counting as 3 Kps would be pretty wack.

Never mind. I was crazy there for a second.

I think Deep Striking would have to count because of poor (possibly intended) wording in the Scatter rule; place model on table, scatter 2d6" resulting in moving the model from its intended location. If GoI counts, then I don't see how DS/Scatter wouldn't.

The sleeper army that I really see Scenario 3 nuking is Lash/Termicide/Oblits Chaos. This army wasn't that amazing to begin with (although still not auto-lose), but if you have the typical dual prince, max oblits, max termicide, 5 rhinos list, you're looking at 44 KP.

sourclams wrote:I think Deep Striking would have to count because of poor (possibly intended) wording in the Scatter rule; place model on table, scatter 2d6" resulting in moving the model from its intended location. If GoI counts, then I don't see how DS/Scatter wouldn't.

I would say because GoI starts on the table...

If you want to be a real @ss about this you could claim that a unit could potentially fail a ld test and can flee more than 6" in a given phase... just throwing that out there...

yermom wrote:If you want to be a real @ss about this you could claim that a unit could potentially fail a ld test and can flee more than 6" in a given phase... just throwing that out there...

Except for the part where it explicitly says that fleeing units don't count?

It also states if a librarian gates with a unit of tactical Marines then only the librarian counts as 3 kp.

G

The TO at the store closest to me is ruling that Drop Pods give up 3 kill points, for the reasons others have already given. There might be an faq in time for the semis, but I doubt there will be one for the qualifiers.

Aduro wrote:

Stirling wrote:

Aduro wrote:Only NON-vehicle (and non-swarm) Troops are Scoring Units, so the Dread would not count regardless.

Dreads are not vehicles, they are walkers. Would have to look at the brb but if your wording is correct, they would count.

Where do people get this? I hate to single you out, but I've heard this several times from several people, including some local ones. How is a Walker any less of a vehicle than a Tank or a Skimmer? They have an Armor Value for their different sides. They use the Vehicle damage charts. What justification is there to say they're Not vehicles?

I don't think you're listening to them.

Here is the argument:
#1 YES walkers are vehicles this is not the argument.
#2 BUT walkers move as infantry
#3 Infantry/walkers do not follow normal vehicle movement Therefore walkers who Deepstrike move as infantry and not at "cruising speed"

Thats is why they can shoot the turn they arrive despite not being fast

frgsinwntr wrote:

Aduro wrote:

Stirling wrote:

Aduro wrote:Only NON-vehicle (and non-swarm) Troops are Scoring Units, so the Dread would not count regardless.

Dreads are not vehicles, they are walkers. Would have to look at the brb but if your wording is correct, they would count.

Where do people get this? I hate to single you out, but I've heard this several times from several people, including some local ones. How is a Walker any less of a vehicle than a Tank or a Skimmer? They have an Armor Value for their different sides. They use the Vehicle damage charts. What justification is there to say they're Not vehicles?

I don't think you're listening to them.

Here is the argument:
#1 YES walkers are vehicles this is not the argument.
#2 BUT walkers move as infantry
#3 Infantry/walkers do not follow normal vehicle movement Therefore walkers who Deepstrike move as infantry and not at "cruising speed"

Thats is why they can shoot the turn they arrive despite not being fast

And that makes them count as Scouring Units how?