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I'm dead set on building an all or mostly Terminator army in the 1500 pts range. Low model count, nice models, great armour saves... basically the exact opposite of my horde Orks. But which is better: a Wolf Guard list or a Deathwing list?

Wolf Guard:

Pros:
- Cheaper default build.
- More options in terms of how they're built.
- Variable unit sizes.
- Access to Land Raider Redeemer and 3++ Storm Shields.
- Counter-Charge & Acute Senses
- Better leader (YMMV)

Cons:
- Certain builds much more expensive.
- Slow - Land Raiders are the only method of closing in quickly.

Deathwing:

Pros:
- Fearless (with a 2+ basic save and a low model count, this is generally a pro)
- Cheaper to build the three "default" Terminator builds, without sacrificing the ability to mix and match.
- Deathwing Assault allows you to put pressure on early.

Cons:
- Less flexible overall
- More expensive to ensure the army has an overall "Deathwing" feel due to relying on basic kits.

Overall, if you're talking in terms of in-game power, Wolf Guard are generally considered superior. Also, you specifically mentioned "Nice models" as a reason for it, and the Wolf Guard terminator kit is awesome!

My vote is for Wolf Guard.

Wolfguard for the reasons above

It appears that the SW variant is the better build.

I'd consider DW only if your opponent allows you to use the 5th rules for storm shields and cyclones and whatnot.

I vote Deathwing actually.

Wolf Guard mobility comes from either land raiders or drop pods, land raiders limit you in terms of points, and drop pods limit you to 5 man squads.

5 man squads suffer from the problem of taking 2 wounds then a leadership test to fallback. Wolf Guard are testing on 9, Deathwing are not testing at all.

Take some ravenwing bikes for the locator beacons and Deathwing are deepstriking more accurately too.

Deathwing assault lets you choose which squads (if any) come down turn 1 when you actually start your turn 1, giving you a lot of tactical flexibility.

Deathwing

Nothing says Love like Drop pods full of terminator wolf guard.

SPACE WOLVES... You wont be sad you did.

Deathwing, the deathwing assault is priceless (and much more flexible like stated above), and the ability to combine well with bikers is a plus (if you use them) space wolf wolf guard bikers (the equivelant to ravenwing) are way too expensive to be good IMO. Also fearless really saves you when there aren't that many terminators to use.

I use these guys regularly and so far they do everything I need them to perfectly well. Especially due to the banner and the apothecary. Just suck it up to the rules that don't work as well. In fact you can use that to your advantage as people can sometimes think too much of the storm shields for example!

Deathwing

Deathwing

Deathwing Landraiders are arguably better as well, as they are meant to get your their first and foremost, doing damage is secondary. They have the old smoke launchers meaning your slightly better against melta as they are all using glancing chart instead of penning and you might even get a cover save inbetween.

I would go with deathwing personally, the bikes give you a much better platform for delivery than pods and after they Termies are delivered can be used to tank hunt if you give the squads dual meltas.

Thanks all, I have decided on Deathwing.

Anyway, you can't go wrong with Deathwing.

wuestenfux wrote:Anyway, you can't go wrong with Deathwing.

Well, being competitive was never the point. Finding a use for my smashing counts-as terminators idea was. More on that in weeks to come (watch the P&M blogs).

Orky-Kowboy wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:Anyway, you can't go wrong with Deathwing.

Well, being competitive was never the point. Finding a use for my smashing counts-as terminators idea was. More on that in weeks to come (watch the P&M blogs).

Then DW should be fun to play.
I usually add a 6 men RW Biker squad with 2 meltas and melta bombs.
Good at tank hunting and taking on isolated units.

Unless you're set on drop podding I'd go with the Deathwing. Logan Grimnar is pretty good but I'd argue he isn't worth the points. Sure, Wolfguard let you field cheaper termies, but with the default SB and PW they aren't too amazing. The upgrades get expensive very quick.

While I'd love 3++ shields and a better Belial, Deathwing are far from terrible as is. As others have stated use the old smoke launchers and apothecary and you can offset the bad.

Demogerg wrote:I vote Deathwing actually.

Wolf Guard mobility comes from either land raiders or drop pods, land raiders limit you in terms of points, and drop pods limit you to 5 man squads.

5 man squads suffer from the problem of taking 2 wounds then a leadership test to fallback. Wolf Guard are testing on 9, Deathwing are not testing at all.

This is where I like Wolf Priests or giving Logan's unit Fearless at the beginning of the opponent's turn.

Demogerg wrote:

Deathwing assault lets you choose which squads (if any) come down turn 1 when you actually start your turn 1, giving you a lot of tactical flexibility.

I don't understand how this is different than podding Wolf Guard. You can choose which ones come down turn 1 as well.

Also, I'd much rather have a unit of fanged, fur-clad, Wolf-claw wielding huntsmen than some Secret Society, bath-robe wearing, loyalty-wavering old men!

Also, I'd much rather have a unit of fanged, fur-clad, Wolf-claw wielding huntsmen than some Secret Society, bath-robe wearing, loyalty-wavering old men!

Not everybody likes this fur-addicted society.

puma713 wrote:

Demogerg wrote:

Deathwing assault lets you choose which squads (if any) come down turn 1 when you actually start your turn 1, giving you a lot of tactical flexibility.

I don't understand how this is different than podding Wolf Guard. You can choose which ones come down turn 1 as well.

With Pods, all pods must start in reserve, and 1/2 of them MUST come down turn one.

DW assault has no such restriction. Nothing MUST start in reserve if you do not want to, and 1/2 MAY come down turn one. There is a big tactical difference between being forced to DS 1/2 of your force on turn one, and being able to choose any number units up to 1/2. Comparing DW assault to Podding SW Termies is like comparing an Eldar Autartch's ability to an Astropath....sure, they function similarly; however, the Autarch gives you much more flexibility.

May>Must

Alerian wrote:

puma713 wrote:

Demogerg wrote:

Deathwing assault lets you choose which squads (if any) come down turn 1 when you actually start your turn 1, giving you a lot of tactical flexibility.

I don't understand how this is different than podding Wolf Guard. You can choose which ones come down turn 1 as well.

With Pods, all pods must start in reserve, and 1/2 of them MUST come down turn one.

DW assault has no such restriction. Nothing MUST start in reserve if you do not want to, and 1/2 MAY come down turn one. There is a big tactical difference between being forced to DS 1/2 of your force on turn one, and being able to choose any number units up to 1/2. Comparing DW assault to Podding SW Termies is like comparing an Eldar Autartch's ability to an Astropath....sure, they function similarly; however, the Autarch gives you much more flexibility.

May>Must

Yes, I see the distinction. I am just not convinced how much more "tactically flexible" the maneuver makes one army versus the other. I can choose to put more units in reserve if I want, depending on the situation. I mean, I agree that there is some more flexibility there, I'm just not agreeing that it amounts up to making Deathwing > Wolf Guard.

So, with Wolves, I choose 5 Pods full of Wolf Guard. I must drop 3 in turn one and I roll for the others. I don't -have- to put Wolf Guard in the pods if I don't want to. I can just drop the pods if I like.

With Dark Angels, I choose 5 units of Deathwing. I -may- drop up to 3 in the first turn and I roll for the ones I did not bring on. I don't -have- to drop them in if I don't want to. I can just field them if I like.

Maybe it's just my playstyle, but to me, the may versus must isn't gamemaking/breaking in any sense.

Personally I think Deathwing/ Dark Angels is kind of boring.

Tacobake wrote:Personally I think Deathwing/ Dark Angels is kind of boring.

We have an older codex that had all the options ripped out of it, GW will catch DA up eventually.

If your up for converting, you could combind the two kits, have your own unique chapter and use whatever rules you want that day. Heck, one battle you do DW the next use SW that would always keep the army fresh.

puma713 wrote:

Maybe it's just my playstyle, but to me, the may versus must isn't gamemaking/breaking in any sense.

Deathwing Terminators are all fearless, and Belial gives your whole army LD 10. Also, my Terminator librarian can Deathwing assault in with my terms and stop all of your rune priests psychic tests with his infinite range Psychic Hood while you have to be near 24" of me to do anything.

Also, a Str 10 AP 1 Template is the best damn psychic power ever =D!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Belial - 130pts
~LC'S

Term Squad - 270
~1x LC
~1x TH/SS
~1x PF/SB
~1x Apothecary with LC's
~1x Standard Bearer with TH/SS


Make an equivalent to that using space wolves. Do the math. DA's win =)!

Rashim wrote:

puma713 wrote:

Maybe it's just my playstyle, but to me, the may versus must isn't gamemaking/breaking in any sense.

Deathwing Terminators are all fearless, and Belial gives your whole army LD 10. Also, my Terminator librarian can Deathwing assault in with my terms and stop all of your rune priests psychic tests with his infinite range Psychic Hood while you have to be near 24" of me to do anything.

Also, a Str 10 AP 1 Template is the best damn psychic power ever =D!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Belial - 130pts
~LC'S

Term Squad - 270
~1x LC
~1x TH/SS
~1x PF/SB
~1x Apothecary with LC's
~1x Standard Bearer with TH/SS


Make an equivalent to that using space wolves. Do the math. DA's win =)!

Wolf Priest - 120 pts. (w/Runic Armor - 2+/4+) and gives the unit Fearless, Preferred Enemy.

Wolf Guard Squad - 310 pts.
2x Wolf Claws
1x TH/SS
1x Frost Axe/SS
1x TH/SS/Cyclone Missile Launcher

Counter-Attack.

You assault me with your squad. I get Counter-Attack (let's assume against Ld 10, I make it). So, we're both I4, except our TH and your PF. However, Belial goes first. So, you're coming at me with 6 LC attacks that go off first and then 10 LC attacks. Belial needs 3's to hit. With a 66.66666% chance to hit, he hits with 4. 4's to wound, with reroll (75% chance). He'll wound with 3 of them. I give the wounds to the Cyclone, the TH/SS and the Frost Axe WG. I need a 3's. That's 66.6~% probability, which is 1.98 saves. So, I take one. Let's say the slower WG gets it. The Cyclone is out.

Now, the LC's. One goes into the Priest and one into the unit (let's just say, for excitement). You need 4's to hit all around. At 50% probability (rounding down for fairness - I'll do the same thing with my unit), you'll hit with 2 of them to each unit. You need 4's to wound, with reroll. So, that is 75% probability. You wound with 2 each. I take one on the Frost Axe, one on the TH. Also, the Priest takes 2. Priest's save his 4+, so that's 50% probability. He takes 1. And, I lose the Frost Axe. :(

So, I've taken 1 wound to the priest and 2 dead WG.

Now, my Priest, and my two WG with Claws and my Frost Axe (remember, he died at I4, so he still gets a round) go into your unit. That's 8 WCs and 8 power weapon attacks. I need 4's all around. We'll do it the same way - Priest into the unit, one of the WC's split against the unit and Belial, my Frost Axe WG into the unit as well. Against the both the unit and Belial, I have a 75% to hit (4's, plus reroll for Preferred Enemy), which is 3 from each attacker. So, 6 WC (3 to the unit, 3 to Belial) hits and 6 power weapon hits into the unit. 3 WC hits into Belial: Wounding Belial, I need 4's with reroll (for Claws). That's 75%. 2 wounds on Belial. His save is 5+, which is a 33.333333% chance. He'll save 1. So, 1 wound to Belial.

Now, the other 9 to the unit. I need 4's to wound with the claws (with reroll), 4's to wound with the priest (no reroll) and 3's to wound with the Axe. So, the claws wound 2, the Axe wounds 2 and the Priest wounds 1.5. For fairness again, let's say he wounds 1. So that's 5 wounds into the unit. Everyone takes one. 2 Storm Shields need 4's. That's 50% chance, leaving 1 dead. Let's take the TH, since the Apothecary is more valuable. Now, the other three Deathwing need 5+. That's a 33.3333% chance at 5+. Saving 3 wounds at 33% is 1 save. That's two more. Since the Apothecary isn't worth anything in this battle, let's lose him and the LC terminator, since they've both attacked. No loss there.

So, Belial has lost 1 wounds, and you've lost 3 Deathwing.

Now, my TH and your PF and TH go at the same time. They both get 5 attacks (ouch!). Trying to break my Fearless resolve, you put the PF into the Priest and the TH into the unit. The PF needs 4's to hit. With 50% - that's 2.5. But enough with being fair - he hits with 3. Wounding on 2's, you have an 83% chance to wound. That's 2.49. So, I take 2 wounds. I save on 4+, but 1 failed save is enough, so the Priest is gone. Now, the TH hits with 2.5 as well, so let's say 3 (enough with being fair). He also needs 83% to wound, so that's 2 wounds. My Wolf claws have already gone, so I put them both on them. With only a 33.333% chance to save, I lose one of them.

So, the tally is 1 dead Wolf Priest, 3 Dead WG.

I put my last 4 TH attacks into the Belial (I want to finish him off for the extra wound). I hit on 4's. And since the Priest died simultaneous to the fact that my TH is swinging, I still get Preferred Enemy. With 75% to hit rate, I hit with 3. With an 83% chance to wound, I wound with only 2. However, Belial still only has a 5+, so that won't be enough at 33.333% to save him. He takes a Str. 8 hit and goes down.

Now, the tally for the Deathwing is: Belial and 3 dead Deathwing. That puts the Wolf Guard winning by 1. One terminator has to take one. At 2+, it's only a 16% chance that he'll fail. Since we've been playing to the advantage of the Deathwing the whole time, why stop here. He saves.

Tally: 1 Wolf Priest, 3 WG for the Deathwing. Belial and 3 dead Deathwing for the Wolf Guard.

There, I did the math (and, this is giving the Deathwing the charge and the advantage on the rolls).

As a side note, this is an assault in a vacuum - there could be a lot of other things going on, but the poster challenged me to make a similar unit. . .so. . . .and, in an actual game, I probably would have simply put 1 TH/SS into Belial rather than wasting some WC on him.

YAY for SW!

If puma713's breakdown/explanation wasn't enough for you, take a look at the brilliant Wolf Guard Terminators. Not enough? Look at the Forge World kits for Wolf Guard Terminators. You can make every model in your army visually individual as well as beautiful...as beautiful as a Wolf Guard terminator can be.

Stunning!

Tacobake wrote:Personally I think Deathwing/ Dark Angels is kind of boring.

Well, not really.
I'd play a dual wing with Sammael and Belial.
Its kinda fun to field RW Bikers and DW Termies.
As Sanctjud said, a scalpel army.

Tactically, I would win. Why would I NOT put all my attacks onto the wolf priest first? He is the only reason you would statistically win, while if you kill off my HQ, what do I have to worry about? I still keep all of my perks.

As a Dual Wing player, I have never lost to a SW list, much less a Loganwing list. To do what I do you spend way too many points. A wolf gaurd with a TH/SS is 63 points, while dual LC's is 43 pts. I can max out wound allocation in squads for a lot cheaper and spend points else where to one up you.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Do the math without the charge as well. Look @ what happens.

puma713 wrote:

Demogerg wrote:I vote Deathwing actually.

Wolf Guard mobility comes from either land raiders or drop pods, land raiders limit you in terms of points, and drop pods limit you to 5 man squads.

5 man squads suffer from the problem of taking 2 wounds then a leadership test to fallback. Wolf Guard are testing on 9, Deathwing are not testing at all.

This is where I like Wolf Priests or giving Logan's unit Fearless at the beginning of the opponent's turn.

Logan only gives fearless to the one unit he is with, and adding wolf priests means that with a drop pod force you are running units of 4 wolf guard terminators and sacrificing your ability to take a HF/Asscan/CML. Also, Wolf Priests, by nature, are a force-multiplier support hero designed to make the squad they are with stronger, taking one to buff 4 terminators is pretty innefficient IMO. This is why the most common build with Wolf Priests are with 15 blood claws in a crusader, to maximize their bonus.

Rashim wrote:Tactically, I would win.

Ooookay. Since we've never played, that would be tough for either of us to call.

Rashim wrote:Why would I NOT put all my attacks onto the wolf priest first? He is the only reason you would statistically win, while if you kill off my HQ, what do I have to worry about? I still keep all of my perks.

Again, why I posted a disclaimer that it was an assault in a vacuum. And the only way you'd kill the Wolf Priest before the others got to use his powers would be with Belial. We've already seen that he'd hit with 4, wound with 3 and I'd save 1.5. So, it's up in the air whether or not you'd even kill him before that. And then, we'd go at the same time. I'd pour everything into the unit except one TH/SS into Belial. We can sit here and measure manhoods all day. I can't say that I'd definitely beat you anymore than you can say that about me.

Rashim wrote:As a Dual Wing player, I have never lost to a SW list, much less a Loganwing list. To do what I do you spend way too many points. A wolf gaurd with a TH/SS is 63 points, while dual LC's is 43 pts. I can max out wound allocation in squads for a lot cheaper and spend points else where to one up you.

If I remove the Cyclone missile launcher out of my above unit, we're the same cost. And you got the charge, and I gave you the benefit of the rolls. I don't get how that's "spending way too many points".

Rashim wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:
Do the math without the charge as well. Look @ what happens.

It would be worse for you, because you'd have less attacks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Demogerg wrote:

puma713 wrote:

Demogerg wrote:I vote Deathwing actually.

Wolf Guard mobility comes from either land raiders or drop pods, land raiders limit you in terms of points, and drop pods limit you to 5 man squads.

5 man squads suffer from the problem of taking 2 wounds then a leadership test to fallback. Wolf Guard are testing on 9, Deathwing are not testing at all.

This is where I like Wolf Priests or giving Logan's unit Fearless at the beginning of the opponent's turn.

Logan only gives fearless to the one unit he is with, and adding wolf priests means that with a drop pod force you are running units of 4 wolf guard terminators and sacrificing your ability to take a HF/Asscan/CML. Also, Wolf Priests, by nature, are a force-multiplier support hero designed to make the squad they are with stronger, taking one to buff 4 terminators is pretty innefficient IMO. This is why the most common build with Wolf Priests are with 15 blood claws in a crusader, to maximize their bonus.

Not necessarily Demogerg. If I only run one Wolf Priest, that is enough to satisfy me. We're taking tactics out of it altogether when we talk about who can beat who in a vacuum like this, so I won't continue. I was simply trying to prove a point that Wolf Guard shouldn't be so simply discounted as inferior to Deathwing when someone can show that they aren't.