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Friend plays CSM and brings nurgles with ample daemon princes / greater daemons.

I play guard. I tend to keep auto-cannons hvy weapon teams around but I'd rather use the points elsewhere. Does anyone use a leman russ variant? Some other thing? Yeah, I don't really do close combat so...





Thanks!

Plasma helps with the FNP. and Autocannons on Hydras and Exterminators help throw lots of wounds on MCs.
the Executioner, Demolisher and even the Regular Russ can do wonders.

Vendettas and Executioners hack through Death Guard armies like nothing else.

Is executioner the 20 shot leman russ variant?

This seems like a good idea. IHe always hops from cover to cover though so its tricky.

Punisher is 20 shot Leman Russ. I'm told it's not very good. Executioner is the 3 shot plasma cannon one.

EDIT: I'm just passing on what I've heard about the punisher. I'm not supporting that opinion in any way.

But punisher with pask bs4 with rerolls to monsterous creatures would be good...

I just think the executioner is way too many points and would definitely be the first thing targeted to die.

The executioner may be alot of points- but they are points put into a very effective unit. Whereas putting Pask into a medicore tank is also alot of points- but still not as effective overall.

Pask does make a punisher about twice as effective as a standard punisher Vs Monstrous creatures, but it a Punisher also has a rather short range(24") which puts it uncomfortably close to assualt range.

Other possible tactics- the 'Bring it Down' will work for those Daemon princes.

Lasguns in large quantities with 'FRFSRF' roll alot of dice- a 33-50% increase in rate of fire can be huge.

If you are getting assualted- joining your platoon squads into 'blobs' with a commisar and the Sgt's adding in a bunch of power weapons can make a formidable squad. Moreso if you have Straken nearby, or even sneak a priest in for the chain fist attacks.

Without knowing what the rest of your army looks like its harder to give better advice

The Battle Cannon laughs in the face of Plague Marines.

Lasguns, in all honesty, will fail horribly against Plague Marines.

For the Princes, Special Weapon fire (Plasma, Melta) will break them down, a Lascannon or 2 won't hurt either.

Russ with plasma sponsons is always a solid anti-meq choise. It's pricey but but the front armour 14 makes it hard for Chaos to take down at range. If you field it you need to bubblewrap it with a solid blob to stop termicide. There's good synergy in this as a 30+ blob with power weapons and commissar can chew through a DP, although they are vulnerable to lash shennannigans.

I also like to bring a Basilisk as it really lays the smackdown on MEQs. No cover saves when you fire it indirect means it can easily detsroy a squad as an effective combat unit with one good shot. I tend to depoly the basilisk as far away from the rest of my army as possible, so that:
a) it can keep firing indirectly on the enemy as they close with my main force.
b) any drop (deepstrike) troops sent to destroy it are on the other side of the table from the main fight. They will kill the arty, but that's all they are doing that game, especially if you run an ootf to slow up enemy reserves.

If I had more infantry I might try bubblewrapping it as well, but I think it works pretty well as a lure. Sure, it never lasts the whole game, but its relatively cheap and makes its points back with just one good turn of firing.

My regular CSM opponent hardly even bothers to target my Russ anymore, all his ranged AT stuff just bounces off and there's too many mangs around to deep strike it.

If you're getting beat by Chaos, you're simply getting outplayed, and there's not much that advice from the internet can do: you just need more practice so you can figure out what's good on your own.

Wow willy, that was informative. Any other golden nuggets?


Clearly the discussion of tactics is a process where we can increase our effectiveness and learn to not worry about certain creatures or squads that have previously taken our time / firepower away from other targets. Discussing with other guardsmen how they deal with certain targets is pretty fun too. And there have been a lot of new developments for IG since 3rd edition, which was the last edition I played.

tldr wrote:Friend plays CSM and brings nurgles with ample daemon princes / greater daemons.

I play guard. I tend to keep auto-cannons hvy weapon teams around but I'd rather use the points elsewhere. Does anyone use a leman russ variant? Some other thing? Yeah, I don't really do close combat so...

Thanks!

Quoted to show what my post is addressing, not necessarily other posts.

First off, he should only be able to field ONE greater daemon, and it can't be Kul'Gath or even a "Great unclean one" from Codex Chaos Daemons... if he is doing this, he is cheating.

Secondly, he can only take 2 Daemon Princes... period... so if 1 GD and 2 DPs is "ample" in your book, idk what to say, however there are ways to easily deal with this...

Plasma vets/CCS with Bring it down Bring it down will make short work of any DP/GD out there, hands down.

The plasma vets will also help with the Plague Marines, but your better answer to them would have to be battle cannons. If you bring at least 3 of them, and 2 squads of Plasma Vets with a Plasma CCS you will pretty much be able to handle about 2000 points of his stuff with only ~800 points of your own (maybe closer to 1k points). If he is fielding Land Raiders (unlikely with how many points he seems to be throwing into his troops/HQs) take some melta vets and/or a Pasquisher (LRBT Vanquisher pattern with Knight Commander Pask) and again, Bring it downx2 will handle them quite quickly.

Plague is a weak list against guard, sure, your friend will get VERY bored with playing you after you start only needing half your list to crush his whole list, but at least you will still be winning right?

Also keep in mind, his Greater Daemon REQUIRES something to sacrifice, if you take out his aspiring champs by turn 2 (more likely if you take a Telepath ((or whatever does -1 to their reserve rolls)) to make it turn 3-4) it dies before seeing the table.

Just a Tzeentch player doing his part to make sure his rival god fails in the Great Game.

Hope it helps
-DAR

tldr wrote:Wow willy, that was informative. Any other golden nuggets?


Clearly the discussion of tactics is a process where we can increase our effectiveness and learn to not worry about certain creatures or squads that have previously taken our time / firepower away from other targets. Discussing with other guardsmen how they deal with certain targets is pretty fun too. And there have been a lot of new developments for IG since 3rd edition, which was the last edition I played.

As both a Chaos player and a mech IG player, I can safely say Willy's right. Take an Executioner with all sponsons, 3 Vendettas, an Inquisitor with mystics and 3x Warriors with plasma guns, and just fill out the rest of your list with Hydras, Vets/Platoon Inf squads in Chimeras, and as many plasma guns as you own. Take advantage of the Astropath to always get the first shot, even if you go second.

The Plague Marine player simply won't have fun with 40 bodies on the table that get wounded on 2s and die without armor/FNP saves against the majority of your weapons.

sourclams wrote:

tldr wrote:Wow willy, that was informative. Any other golden nuggets?


Clearly the discussion of tactics is a process where we can increase our effectiveness and learn to not worry about certain creatures or squads that have previously taken our time / firepower away from other targets. Discussing with other guardsmen how they deal with certain targets is pretty fun too. And there have been a lot of new developments for IG since 3rd edition, which was the last edition I played.

As both a Chaos player and a mech IG player, I can safely say Willy's right. Take an Executioner with all sponsons, 3 Vendettas, an Inquisitor with mystics and 3x Warriors with plasma guns, and just fill out the rest of your list with Hydras, Vets/Platoon Inf squads in Chimeras, and as many plasma guns as you own. Take advantage of the Astropath to always get the first shot, even if you go second.

The Plague Marine player simply won't have fun with 40 bodies on the table that get wounded on 2s and die without armor/FNP saves against the majority of your weapons.

this. this a million times over. deny them their FNP rolls, and they've wasted points on expensive infantry. i would know, i have plague marines and this kind of thing is what i hate to play against

IG should really have no issues dealing with Chaos, and well any MEQ really. There is a reason why this book is ranked above all others in power by most people. Templates with high strength and low APs.

PM's are just normal marines when against your BCs and the amount of special weapons available to you is almost disgusting.

Just play your strengths and keep range. Nurgle will most likely try and fire-fight it out with you anyway, so just don't let that happen.

Chaos isn't really tooled to fight mech IG. Chaos is far better at killing MEQ than Chimeras. Just practice good target priority. Gun down the most vulnerable and dangerous (To Chimeras) targets first. Don't waste shots on an obscured vehicle or one that popped smoke when targets when other targets are more vulnerable. When you decide to shoot at a Chaos MC take the shots early in your shooting phase and keep shooting until it's dead. A chaos MC that's 3/4 dead can inflict just as much damage as an unwounded choas MC. It's not like guardsmen are going to finish it off in CC.

Hey, My blob has killed a bunch of DP's in close combat. Okay, well like 3 but still, that's somthing.
As my tag says 'Everything counts in large amounts', and the IG can pull down nearly anything given enough time(especially if you keep Straken nearby!).

I have to also agree with willydstyle - if you can't find anything in this codex that ignores armor saves (and thus FNP), then there's not a lot we can do for you. If you do and you're still getting beaten, then there's something wrong with your movement or deployment (or terrain setup), which we likewise can't help you with (unless you post battle reports).

Chaos really isn't the strongest army out there, and a nurgle list is basically paying a bunch more points for units which are exactly as durable against most guard weapons that don't begin with "las" and end in "gun".

I mean, perhaps if you posted your list we could find some sort of obvious list error, but this should actually be relatively straightforward.

I generally do fine against csm. I was just polling the IG players on dakka for useful hints they use to specifically allocate their weapons choices at dealing with monsterous creatures. I don't think I've said help I'm dying anywhere.

Honestly autocannons aren't bad at killing princes. Just use Bring it Down! A lot.

Also, creative use for Bring it Down: Position a squad so that you have an enemy infantry unit between you and one of their monstrous creatures or tanks. Issue Bring it Down against the monstrous creature/tank and fire. It makes your flamers twin-linked period, so you get re-rolls to wound against the enemy squad too.

Is that true? Seems diabolical.

Only if the template can hit the original target as well as the intervening guys, but then again, this will probably end up giving the DP an obscured, which giving the DP a 4+ cover (unless its a MoT DP) is not worth getting a few potential extra flamer wounds...

Gavo wrote:The Battle Cannon laughs in the face of Plague Marines.

...

For the Princes, Special Weapon fire (Plasma, Melta) will break them down, a Lascannon or 2 won't hurt either.

Battle cannons are horrible against PMs due to the 4+ FNP and low volume of fire. You are as likely to wound a daemon prince with a lasgun as you are against PMs so just pour fire into it. It is a shame if you are wasting heavy weapons for the same effect.

Otherwise, Sourclams has it. Just take as much plasma as you can, preferably hiding in transports. Remember, if you start wiping the floor with him he'll be force to respond in kind. Get ready for termicide, lash/MoT princes and obliterator spam!

Soup and a roll wrote:

Battle cannons are horrible against PMs due to the 4+ FNP and low volume of fire.

How are you getting FNP? Str 8 Double Toughs T4 (remember they only have MODIFIED T5) which denies FNP...

You are as likely to wound a daemon prince with a lasgun as you are against PMs so just pour fire into it. It is a shame if you are wasting heavy weapons for the same effect.

Actually just issuing Bring it Downx2 to a Plasma/Melta vet squad and your Plasma CCS (which you should be taking anyway) makes short work of even a Tzeentch DP...

Otherwise, Sourclams has it. Just take as much plasma as you can, preferably hiding in transports. Remember, if you start wiping the floor with him he'll be force to respond in kind. Get ready for termicide, lash/MoT princes and obliterator spam!

I don't think he will have to worry too much about Lash/MoT Princes as he stated the player in question plays a Nurgle themed army (remember, Nurgle and Tzeentch don't like each other...) Temicide is too costly in a nurgle list (you should be spending the points on more Plague Marines) and Oblits are few and far between (not to mention vendetta food)

Competitively, Nurgle gets STOMPED by IG (or at least it SHOULD) 99% of the time... most chaos lists don't like IG, and realistitcally, the ONLY things he should be worrying about are Winged Lords with DWs, Possesed LRs and Defiliers (I love taking Battle Cannons against guard... give them a taste of their own medicine!) but again, when he (or any IG player)draws the same straw as the Chaos player (either in Tourny, or at a standard gaming session) it should be followed with an immediate sigh of relief.

Soup and a roll wrote:

Gavo wrote:The Battle Cannon laughs in the face of Plague Marines.

...

For the Princes, Special Weapon fire (Plasma, Melta) will break them down, a Lascannon or 2 won't hurt either.

Battle cannons are horrible against PMs due to the 4+ FNP and low volume of fire. You are as likely to wound a daemon prince with a lasgun as you are against PMs so just pour fire into it. It is a shame if you are wasting heavy weapons for the same effect.

Sorry, mate, but you are wrong.
The S8 of a battle cannon denies FNP to plague marines....the battle cannon is one of the best things to use against them... longe range, no armor save and no FNP.

Does anyone else hear an Echo in here? >_> <_<

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:I don't think he will have to worry too much about Lash/MoT Princes as he stated the player in question plays a Nurgle themed army (remember, Nurgle and Tzeentch don't like each other...) Temicide is too costly in a nurgle list (you should be spending the points on more Plague Marines) and Oblits are few and far between (not to mention vendetta food)

Competitively, Nurgle gets STOMPED by IG (or at least it SHOULD) 99% of the time... most chaos lists don't like IG, and realistitcally, the ONLY things he should be worrying about are Winged Lords with DWs, Possesed LRs and Defiliers (I love taking Battle Cannons against guard... give them a taste of their own medicine!) but again, when he (or any IG player)draws the same straw as the Chaos player (either in Tourny, or at a standard gaming session) it should be followed with an immediate sigh of relief.

Bah. That's what I get for posting without thinking. OK, battlecannons are good against plague marines. My bad.

OP's opponent brings nurgle but if he's getting stomped all the time there's nothing to stop him bringing everything else. If, for example, he is getting hammered by 3x vendettas he can bring 3x termicide for 300 points as a good hard counter. OP is then forced to mystic bubble and so on. I agree that gaurd shouldn't struggle against CSM but if you powerplay you encourage your opponent to do the same.

I do have to ask, how is Termicide a "good hard counter" to vendettas?

You need 6inch melta range, if you are positioning to drop within 6inches of the vendetta, 90 degress of your potential scatter arc will mishap you (unless you just completely miss the target, which is just as bad.) also 300 points of termies is either 10 termies unupgraded (which can't do jack to the vendetta) or ~7 termis with Combi-melta (unless you meant Chainfists... I hope to GOD you don't mean Chainfists...) So those 7 termies take their 1 melta-shot each (per game) miss 1/3 of them (lets be nice and say... 2) of the 5 that hit, 1 glance 4 pens (in melta range) or 2 glances (3 on a good day 2 glances and a pen on a better day) if not in melta range. the two glances only do something on a roll of 6 (I guess an Immobilised result is just as good in most cases...) so only really if you are rolling particularly well will that 300 some points of termies (that after this point, will most likely be killed easily) MIGHT kill that 140point Vendetta... I don't really see that as a Hard Counter...

Of course "powergaming begets powergaming", but I think the major point of this thread is that Guard can especially powergame MUCH harder then CSM with their current codex. More likely what will happen is this...

Guard player starts cheesing out his list to be anti-chaos.

CSM player gets crushed

CSM player tries to cheese his list out to be more anti-guard

CSM player gets crushed

CSM player goes IG*/BA†

*CSM player MIGHT win

†CSM player gets crushed

and finally

CSM player puts his army on Dakka Swap Shop (or Ebay/Rogue Market/W.E) and picks up MTG/Warmachine.

Daemon-Archon Ren- What would a guard list look like cheesed out to be anti-chaos?

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:
CSM player puts his army on Dakka Swap Shop (or Ebay/Rogue Market/W.E) and picks up MTG/Warmachine.

I see what you did there,

Anyway guard is a very very flexible army that offers fantastic counters to whatever your opponent might bring to the table
you have a number of fantastic multipurpose units that can be mighty killy

Russes are always great for dealing with MEQ, and by proxy nurgle marines
the standard LRBT is a great cheap option, in 5th edition it is probably BEST suited to deal with
squads of marines at a time, now you can either take them base or you can throw plasma cannons on the sides to become death to anything that moves(this option is still under 200 points)
the only other variant that i really would say is worth its weight is probably the demolisher, the rest of them, in my opinion, are just there for funsies
if you take a demolisher just base you have a large strength 10 pie plate that will make short work of everything that is not Assault terminators, once again you can add plasma cannons to just wipe everything away, this same thing can be done with an executioner, but its arguably better to take a plasma russ or demolisher instead, as the point cost is less and the effectiveness can be better

Vendettas are a fantastic unit, actually no, they are an incredibly broken unit.
Why they decided to strap 3 twin linked las cannons onto a fast skimmer for the points is astonishing.
so until 6th edition guard you can abuse that fact, consider the following scenario:

your friend is playing plague marines riding in rhinos with some of his bigger things in land raiders

you deploy relatively far away with russes and vendettas

3 vendettas open up rhinos with relative ease, and if you are fielding chimeras with multi lasers it is possible to assist in this process.
with a squad or two of plague marines out in the open you pound a single LRBT(without sponsons) shell into a squad, killing at least 4 on a direct hit(and thats being generous to the nurgle player)


Veterans whipping around melta guns in any sort of transport is always a good day

against a nurgle player you might consider the following loadout for chimera riding veterans

Veterans
melta
melta
melta
Chimera
hull heavy flamer

i find that chimeras are the 55 point upgrade to give guardsmen power armour, if you point the facing in the appropriate direction it can be difficult to get them out of their box. also when they go opened top from shooting it will make the chimera easier to blow up, but in return the guardsmen inside are less likely to all die in the resulting explosion


you can also put veterans in the vendettas to make a unit that is the bane of armor

Vendetta
heavy bolters

Veterans
melta
melta
melta
Demolitions

This type of squad gets 3 melta guns, a nice little demo charge, and 10 melta bombs, they pretty much are the gak


this leads me to how you might deal with a daemon prince,

other players have suggested plasma veterans, i happen to dislike plasma veterans because i feel like they explode themselves as fast as they shoot

what really gets some of the big guys is your humble CCS

i like to outfit mine as such

CCS
commander w/ plasma pistol(and sometimes power fist)
plasma gun
plasma gun
plasma gun
Medic
Chimera
hull heavy flamer

This gives you 7 BS4 plasma shots with a good % of survival in the event of an overheat

It also takes gaks all over everything in existence

hope this helps, if not, i can just give you the imperial guard tactica