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Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






London

bananathug wrote:
Fire raptor went up 90 points.

Termies are terrible, run anything else (SftS VV with jump packs can get reliable t1 charges or john woo them up with twin plasma pistols for t2 26" screen proof shooting that will die and give up all the points if you don't get t1...)

You will need scouts to prep-field for lias. No deepstrike until turn 2 means you gotta be able to clear a landing area of preserve one.

Mixing combi-plas, plas and las in your tacs leads to a schizophrenic unit which either wants to move or hang back and shoot.

What are your goals for this list? You trying to have fun with your buds or compete in tournaments?


90 points? Damn, I've already placed an order for one.

In terms of the list, it's a semi-competitive "fun with my buds" list. I originally started it with the Marine Strikeforce set, something I could work on while I was at uni, and built on it from there. It's not designed to sweet tournaments or crush competitive lists but I hope it could put up a good fight in a casual setting.

I've had mixed success with the Termies, I agree that they're not stellar, but they seem like a nice distraction. I think the success came with the mass drops from Lias and his cronies, but with them gone maybe I should drop these too.

I had a look over VV, they seem to have the issue that once you kit them out they come out rather expensive for a model which dies as easily as a regular Marine, especially if I go John Woo as you said. What would be a good loadout for them? I'm considering Sergeant with PW/Relic Blade, couple of guys with pistols/Storm Shields and couple of guys with PW?

With the Tacticals, should I just split them into 2x5 units, 1 with Las and the other with Plasma?

Edit: Just doing some quick mental maths so it may be a bit out. If I drop the Termies and free up some points elsewhere this would accomodate the Fire Raptor's bastardly points increase as well as create some room for some VV?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/24 16:32:02


 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






Azuza001 wrote:
I don't understand the whirlwind hate that some places seem to give it (not saying here), compared to a basic pred with just its autocannon the whirlwinds with vengance get 72" range with no Los needed for 26 pts cheaper. Yes the predator can get laz cannons or heavy bolters to make if better but more expensive, but I love the autocannons on the preds now. 3 whirlwinds will cost 312 pts, put a cheap leutinant near them you have an effective and cheap detachment for long range fire Support. Got to love it.

Compare that to a basalisk or manticore though. Kind of a joke by comparison isn't it?

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




My problem with the Whirlwind is its overall damage output. Sure, it might not always be bad on paper (compared to some things) but i always feel disappointed by it.

3 whirlwinds working together could do some work, but then its all those points tied up in one place, with a captain and/or lieutenant, that can get tied up in combat relatively easily due to being in a marine list.

Oh... And they don't get chapter tactics. -.-

As much as i want to run a couple of tanks and flyers, i can't help but just look at contemptors and think... i might as well just take those instead.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Kdash wrote:
My problem with the Whirlwind is its overall damage output. Sure, it might not always be bad on paper (compared to some things) but i always feel disappointed by it.

3 whirlwinds working together could do some work, but then its all those points tied up in one place, with a captain and/or lieutenant, that can get tied up in combat relatively easily due to being in a marine list.

Oh... And they don't get chapter tactics. -.-

As much as i want to run a couple of tanks and flyers, i can't help but just look at contemptors and think... i might as well just take those instead.

With only dreadnaughts getting chapter tactics, marine vehicals realy don't bring enough to the field for me.
Heck now with the 3 datasheet rule killshot may aswell not exsist.
Dreadnaughts just do it better BS2+ same T7 a couple less wounds but
Contemptor, Relic contemptor, Contemptor mortis, Deredeo and Leviathan all have invulnerable saves.
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






Yeah I just can't get over it.

"Hey GW - no one will play space marine tanks because every other army gets army traits on their vehicles but marine/csm tanks don't"

GW- nerfs Guilliman....

So out of touch man.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I agree there are better artillery units in the game, but this is a question of whirlwinds vs predators at base cost. People love preds, but whirlwinds can do the same job better. Even if you add side laz into the mix 3 preds with side laz = 540 pts, but 3 whirlwinds and a dev squad with 4 laz is 477. That's paying for the leutinant with the left over and being arguably just as good. Your down 2 laz cannons but get rerolls of 1 to wound, plus more wounds due to the laz being on infantry. Or make the dev squad a full 10 man squad for a cost of 544 before the leutinant.

I am just trying to give options or alternative tactics. And everyone seems to agree that preds are good and the pred auto cannon is a great base option so why not the whirlwind?

Edit.

Besides, I don't like the idea of if I play space marines and want some artillery support grab guard or don't bother.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/24 18:07:52


 
   
Made in ca
Neophyte Undergoing Surgeries




Ottawa, Canada

Hey guys I have two Post FAQ Ultramarines 2000 point lists I would appreciate feedback on. (Both are quite similar)

The first is mono SM and the second has a battalion of Guard. With Adept of the Codex and 11 starting CP in the mono list I'm not actually sure the Guard is required.

Ultramarines 2000 - 11 CP
Spoiler:

Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment

LOW
Roboute Gulliman - Warlord - Adept of the Codex - 400

Battalion

HQ
Captain - Jump Pack, Master-crafted Boltgun, Thunder hammer, The Sanctic Halo - 117
Chief Librarian Tigurius - 130
(Veil of Time / Might of Heroes / Null Zone)

Troops
Scout Squad - Storm Bolter / Chainsword, Heavy Bolter, 3x Bolter - 67
Scout Squad - Storm Bolter / Chainsword, Heavy Bolter, 3x Bolter - 67
Scout Squad - Storm Bolter / Chainsword, Heavy Bolter, 3x Bolter - 67

Elites
Company Ancient - Storm Bolter, Standard of the Emperor Ascendant - 65
Relic Whirlwind Scorpius - Scorpius multi-launcher - 215

Fast Attack
Scout Bike Squad - Storm Bolter - 77
Scout Bike Squad - Storm Bolter - 77
Scout Bike Squad - Storm Bolter - 77

Heavy Support
Devastator Squad - Armorium Cherub, Storm Bolter / Chainsword, 1x Heavy Bolter, 3x Lascannon - 157
Devastator Squad - Armorium Cherub, Storm Bolter / Chainsword, 1x Heavy Bolter, 3x Lascannon - 157
Relic Leviathan Dreadnought - 2x Heavy Flamer, 3x HKM, 2x Storm cannon array - 327

Ultramarines 2000 + Guard - 16 CP
Spoiler:

Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment

LOW
Roboute Gulliman - Warlord - Adept of the Codex - 400

Battalion

HQ
Captain - Jump Pack, Storm bolter, Thunder hammer, The Sanctic Halo - 116
Chief Librarian Tigurius - 130
(Veil of Time / Psychic Fortress / Null Zone)

Troops
Scout Squad - Storm Bolter / Chainsword, Heavy Bolter, 3x Bolter - 67
Scout Squad - Storm Bolter / Chainsword, Heavy Bolter, 3x Bolter - 67
Scout Squad - Storm Bolter / Chainsword, Heavy Bolter, 3x Bolter - 67

Elites
Apothecary - 55
Company Ancient - Storm Bolter, Standard of the Emperor Ascendant - 65
Relic Whirlwind Scorpius - Scorpius multi-launcher - 215

Fast Attack
Scout Bike Squad - Storm Bolter - 77
Scout Bike Squad - Storm Bolter - 77

Heavy Support
Devastator Squad - Armorium Cherub, Storm Bolter / Chainsword, 1x Heavy Bolter, 3x Lascannon - 157
Devastator Squad - Armorium Cherub, Storm Bolter / Chainsword, 1x Heavy Bolter, 3x Lascannon - 157
Devastator Squad - Armorium Cherub, Storm Bolter / Chainsword, 1x Heavy Bolter, 3x Lascannon - 157

Battalion - Armegeddon

HQ
Company Commander - Boltgun, Power Sword - 35
Company Commander - Boltgun, Power Sword - 35

Troops
Infantry Squad - Boltgun / Chainsword, 9x Lasgun - 41
Infantry Squad - Boltgun / Chainsword, 9x Lasgun - 41
Infantry Squad - Boltgun / Chainsword, 9x Lasgun - 41

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/24 22:52:08


30k Ultramarines
40k Sons of Orar 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




With BobbyG, i don't really think you need to worry about adding Guard for CP/CP farm.

In this case, i'd rather take the Leviathan over the Guard every time.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Can't you move a few units arround and add an LT to the first list to gain a CP and also the ability to reroll somewhere other than the Gman castle build. They can throw in a nice counter charge and allow you a secondary caslte on an objective
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Azuza001 wrote:
I agree there are better artillery units in the game, but this is a question of whirlwinds vs predators at base cost. People love preds, but whirlwinds can do the same job better. Even if you add side laz into the mix 3 preds with side laz = 540 pts, but 3 whirlwinds and a dev squad with 4 laz is 477. That's paying for the leutinant with the left over and being arguably just as good. Your down 2 laz cannons but get rerolls of 1 to wound, plus more wounds due to the laz being on infantry. Or make the dev squad a full 10 man squad for a cost of 544 before the leutinant.

I am just trying to give options or alternative tactics. And everyone seems to agree that preds are good and the pred auto cannon is a great base option so why not the whirlwind?

Edit.

Besides, I don't like the idea of if I play space marines and want some artillery support grab guard or don't bother.

The thing about the Autocannon from the Predator is that it's a whopping 3 damage at an average of 4 shots. It's pretty cool like that in that it's ignoring the huge aspect of having an Invul with the giant damage.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot






Texas

So with yet another Point increase to Bobby G and Fire Raptors, its seems SM are nerfed yet again. Not sure why as they weren't even placing high in the big tourneys. First Razorback nerf, then Fire Raptors, Bobby G 2x.

What would be our best competitive list post FAQ with the changes to DS and the rule of 3?

10000+
10000+
8500+
3000+
8000+
3500+ IK Plus 1x Warhound, Reaver, Warlord Titans

DakkaSwap Successful Transactions: cormadepanda, pretre x3, LibertineIX, Lbcwanabe, privateer4hire, Cruentus (swap), Scatwick2 (swap), boneheadracer (swap), quickfuze (swap), Captain Brown (swap) x2, luftsb, Forgottonson, WillvonDoom, bocatt (swap)

*I'm on Bartertown as Dynas 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




My sarcastic answer which is probably all too true right now is the departures list for the train, plane home after day one.

Mildly more constructive, ravenguard and spam forgeworld dreads for back field, combine with intercessors for midfield objectives and scouts to make space for my VV and srike SftS.
Is my plan.

Plan B is going over 100% to my second army.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/24 19:20:22


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Dynas wrote:
So with yet another Point increase to Bobby G and Fire Raptors, its seems SM are nerfed yet again. Not sure why as they weren't even placing high in the big tourneys. First Razorback nerf, then Fire Raptors, Bobby G 2x.

What would be our best competitive list post FAQ with the changes to DS and the rule of 3?

Well the way I see it, most of the dangerous Deep Strike is nerfed so screens will be less important. Therefore I plan to go right back to Lias bomb, because people aren't going to expect it at all. Shock factor is good in this case as long as I bring the Ancient with the Relic Banner like I plan.

Otherwise I'm sticking with trying to make our artillery work in a secondary detachment. There's only so many things you can do at 2000 points though. My Lias bomb is nearly 900 points after all.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Dynas wrote:
So with yet another Point increase to Bobby G and Fire Raptors, its seems SM are nerfed yet again. Not sure why as they weren't even placing high in the big tourneys. First Razorback nerf, then Fire Raptors, Bobby G 2x.

What would be our best competitive list post FAQ with the changes to DS and the rule of 3?

Well the way I see it, most of the dangerous Deep Strike is nerfed so screens will be less important. Therefore I plan to go right back to Lias bomb, because people aren't going to expect it at all. Shock factor is good in this case as long as I bring the Ancient with the Relic Banner like I plan.

Otherwise I'm sticking with trying to make our artillery work in a secondary detachment. There's only so many things you can do at 2000 points though. My Lias bomb is nearly 900 points after all.


You really believe that you can make enough of that 1k thats on the field survive untill your turn 2 thats potentially 2 rounds of the other player and if they wipe you out you auto loose?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/24 20:57:57


 
   
Made in us
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran




McCragge

People now have all the time in the world to extend their chaff screening off their entire DZ.

If I want indirect I would either ally IG for earthshakers or Admech for Minotaurs.

Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!

Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."

"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."

DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough. 
   
Made in ca
Neophyte Undergoing Surgeries




Ottawa, Canada

Kdash wrote:With BobbyG, i don't really think you need to worry about adding Guard for CP/CP farm.

In this case, i'd rather take the Leviathan over the Guard every time.


Thanks for reaffirming what I was thinking. The Leviathan (especially with Tigurius' -1 to hit and potentially Might of Heroes or Armour of Contempt to keep him alive) is much scarier.

Ice_can wrote:Can't you move a few units arround and add an LT to the first list to gain a CP and also the ability to reroll somewhere other than the Gman castle build. They can throw in a nice counter charge and allow you a secondary caslte on an objective


Points are tight as is and the JP Captain is already giving rerolls to hit to the scout bikers. Aside from the scout bikers and scouts moving around I imagine the remainder of the list will stay near Guilliman for a majority of the game lessening the need for the LT. Something to keep in mind if I ever add more mobility to the list however - thanks!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/24 22:58:04


30k Ultramarines
40k Sons of Orar 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Ice_can wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Dynas wrote:
So with yet another Point increase to Bobby G and Fire Raptors, its seems SM are nerfed yet again. Not sure why as they weren't even placing high in the big tourneys. First Razorback nerf, then Fire Raptors, Bobby G 2x.

What would be our best competitive list post FAQ with the changes to DS and the rule of 3?

Well the way I see it, most of the dangerous Deep Strike is nerfed so screens will be less important. Therefore I plan to go right back to Lias bomb, because people aren't going to expect it at all. Shock factor is good in this case as long as I bring the Ancient with the Relic Banner like I plan.

Otherwise I'm sticking with trying to make our artillery work in a secondary detachment. There's only so many things you can do at 2000 points though. My Lias bomb is nearly 900 points after all.


You really believe that you can make enough of that 1k thats on the field survive untill your turn 2 thats potentially 2 rounds of the other player and if they wipe you out you auto loose?

It's doable for for the most part. I'm still using Scouts and Intercessors and Tarantula Sentry Guns are a super cheap method of denial while being able to contribute to the fight.

I'm nuts over Tarantula Sentry Guns for a reason.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in gb
Combat Jumping Rasyat




East of England

 Xenomancers wrote:
Azuza001 wrote:
I don't understand the whirlwind hate that some places seem to give it (not saying here), compared to a basic pred with just its autocannon the whirlwinds with vengance get 72" range with no Los needed for 26 pts cheaper. Yes the predator can get laz cannons or heavy bolters to make if better but more expensive, but I love the autocannons on the preds now. 3 whirlwinds will cost 312 pts, put a cheap leutinant near them you have an effective and cheap detachment for long range fire Support. Got to love it.

Compare that to a basalisk or manticore though. Kind of a joke by comparison isn't it?


Indeed it is!

3 Vengeance Whirlwinds with a cap, shooting at a Predator, do 4.6 damage. All together. That's 386pts. Whereas spending 6pts less on 2 laspreds nets you 10damage on the same target, and scale up much better against tougher opponents (2.6 vs the same 10 damage against a Russ, for example).

Sheesh.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/25 11:47:05


 
   
Made in us
Death-Dealing Devastator





Sorta related to Space Marines: the Sternguard Veteran box is way better than I ever expected it'd be. I've always wondered why you'd spend $50 on 5 models when you can spend $40 on 10, but now I sorta know. Basic marines look so dinky and cruddy compared to the swagged out Sternguard Vets.

Quoth the Raven "You're gonna be shooting at a -1." 
   
Made in us
Death-Dealing Devastator




Tampa, FL

In regards to Lias I use him more often to protect my Devastators honestly. They can't shoot them turn one, deploy in my zone turn two and it's like they were in Rhinos only safer. You still have the option of waiting till turn 2 if you need, but most of the time there is no point.

Chapter Master stratagem I do use. Almost every game I play I end up with left over CP at the end anyway, or I use it on erroneous things. Biggest reason I like it is if you're using plasma against things with -1 to hit. Then there is no downside to rerolling 2's and it's a lot better than just rerolling ones.

Tarantulas are beasts. I love them but usually take the twin Assault Cannons for like 45? points. Lots of dakka, good denial, and no restriction on what they shoot.

Scout bikes have come out looking really good. They offer a lot of shots which is something we usually lack, plus great mobility. I have been counts as using my regular bikers though since I don't have the models.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




I want to like the Assault Cannon sentry, but I can't justify the limited range they'd have.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in gb
Combat Jumping Rasyat




East of England

Are you sure there's no resyriction on asscan tarantulas? Pretty sure they have to shoot nearest target. Wasnt it faq'd?
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 grouchoben wrote:
Are you sure there's no resyriction on asscan tarantulas? Pretty sure they have to shoot nearest target. Wasnt it faq'd?

Wasn't any FAQ as far as I know.

If you can justify the limited range, Assault Cannons all the way. Otherwise, I like the safety net of an extra foot, and it isn't like Twin Assault Cannons are still gonna stay cheapish. I'm honestly expecting another price hike on them.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Damsel of the Lady




Hi Space Marine experts!

With my Grey Knights pretty well crushed by GW, I'm ally shopping again. Does anyone know what are SM's best options for dealing with high T, good invulnerables save monsters like Mortarion and Tesseract Vaults?

Autocannons seem like they might work but I can't find any good platforms (4 shots on a Dread is a but too inefficient a way to get there).
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Audustum wrote:
Hi Space Marine experts!

With my Grey Knights pretty well crushed by GW, I'm ally shopping again. Does anyone know what are SM's best options for dealing with high T, good invulnerables save monsters like Mortarion and Tesseract Vaults?

Autocannons seem like they might work but I can't find any good platforms (4 shots on a Dread is a but too inefficient a way to get there).

You're gonna need to double up on the Autocannons there obviously. Otherwise, go for Dark Angels and ham up on the Strategem to make the Plasma stuff 3 damage.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Death-Dealing Devastator





Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Azuza001 wrote:
I agree there are better artillery units in the game, but this is a question of whirlwinds vs predators at base cost. People love preds, but whirlwinds can do the same job better. Even if you add side laz into the mix 3 preds with side laz = 540 pts, but 3 whirlwinds and a dev squad with 4 laz is 477. That's paying for the leutinant with the left over and being arguably just as good. Your down 2 laz cannons but get rerolls of 1 to wound, plus more wounds due to the laz being on infantry. Or make the dev squad a full 10 man squad for a cost of 544 before the leutinant.

I am just trying to give options or alternative tactics. And everyone seems to agree that preds are good and the pred auto cannon is a great base option so why not the whirlwind?

Edit.

Besides, I don't like the idea of if I play space marines and want some artillery support grab guard or don't bother.

The thing about the Autocannon from the Predator is that it's a whopping 3 damage at an average of 4 shots. It's pretty cool like that in that it's ignoring the huge aspect of having an Invul with the giant damage.


The big issue with Predator Autocannons is AP-1. Most units with enough wounds for the damage of an Autocannon to matter have saves of 4+ or better. The lack of AP means that 4 shots on average is really only expected to pierce once. Really, the autocannon either won't have the AP or the S to matter against big targets or will do so much damage the excess is often wasted. If you want a more TAC Predator, Twin Lascannon and Heavy Bolters is a nice choice.

However: The only way I can think it will work is with Kill Shot + Storm of Fire which would mean you'll be shooting Autocannons that do 4 damage a pop, wound T7 on 3+ with wound rolls of 5+ being AP-2. The math has too many variables for me to account for, but I think it sounds pretty nice.

Quoth the Raven "You're gonna be shooting at a -1." 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 SputnikDX wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Azuza001 wrote:
I agree there are better artillery units in the game, but this is a question of whirlwinds vs predators at base cost. People love preds, but whirlwinds can do the same job better. Even if you add side laz into the mix 3 preds with side laz = 540 pts, but 3 whirlwinds and a dev squad with 4 laz is 477. That's paying for the leutinant with the left over and being arguably just as good. Your down 2 laz cannons but get rerolls of 1 to wound, plus more wounds due to the laz being on infantry. Or make the dev squad a full 10 man squad for a cost of 544 before the leutinant.

I am just trying to give options or alternative tactics. And everyone seems to agree that preds are good and the pred auto cannon is a great base option so why not the whirlwind?

Edit.

Besides, I don't like the idea of if I play space marines and want some artillery support grab guard or don't bother.

The thing about the Autocannon from the Predator is that it's a whopping 3 damage at an average of 4 shots. It's pretty cool like that in that it's ignoring the huge aspect of having an Invul with the giant damage.


The big issue with Predator Autocannons is AP-1. Most units with enough wounds for the damage of an Autocannon to matter have saves of 4+ or better. The lack of AP means that 4 shots on average is really only expected to pierce once. Really, the autocannon either won't have the AP or the S to matter against big targets or will do so much damage the excess is often wasted. If you want a more TAC Predator, Twin Lascannon and Heavy Bolters is a nice choice.

However: The only way I can think it will work is with Kill Shot + Storm of Fire which would mean you'll be shooting Autocannons that do 4 damage a pop, wound T7 on 3+ with wound rolls of 5+ being AP-2. The math has too many variables for me to account for, but I think it sounds pretty nice.

The Autocannon doesn't need more AP because of the number of shots. You're looking a gift horse in the mouth when its teeth are actually fine.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter






-1 ap wont mean much.. At least considering the guy was asking about high T with invul dudes.

Best chance against something like that is Smite up the wazoo or high STR high rate of fire weapons to try and blow through the invul.

OR try to get off nullzone :/

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.

Oh my god I'm becoming martel.
Send help!

 
   
Made in us
Death-Dealing Devastator





Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 SputnikDX wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Azuza001 wrote:
I agree there are better artillery units in the game, but this is a question of whirlwinds vs predators at base cost. People love preds, but whirlwinds can do the same job better. Even if you add side laz into the mix 3 preds with side laz = 540 pts, but 3 whirlwinds and a dev squad with 4 laz is 477. That's paying for the leutinant with the left over and being arguably just as good. Your down 2 laz cannons but get rerolls of 1 to wound, plus more wounds due to the laz being on infantry. Or make the dev squad a full 10 man squad for a cost of 544 before the leutinant.

I am just trying to give options or alternative tactics. And everyone seems to agree that preds are good and the pred auto cannon is a great base option so why not the whirlwind?

Edit.

Besides, I don't like the idea of if I play space marines and want some artillery support grab guard or don't bother.

The thing about the Autocannon from the Predator is that it's a whopping 3 damage at an average of 4 shots. It's pretty cool like that in that it's ignoring the huge aspect of having an Invul with the giant damage.


The big issue with Predator Autocannons is AP-1. Most units with enough wounds for the damage of an Autocannon to matter have saves of 4+ or better. The lack of AP means that 4 shots on average is really only expected to pierce once. Really, the autocannon either won't have the AP or the S to matter against big targets or will do so much damage the excess is often wasted. If you want a more TAC Predator, Twin Lascannon and Heavy Bolters is a nice choice.

However: The only way I can think it will work is with Kill Shot + Storm of Fire which would mean you'll be shooting Autocannons that do 4 damage a pop, wound T7 on 3+ with wound rolls of 5+ being AP-2. The math has too many variables for me to account for, but I think it sounds pretty nice.

The Autocannon doesn't need more AP because of the number of shots. You're looking a gift horse in the mouth when its teeth are actually fine.


I'm not saying it needs buffs, I'm just wondering what units can be effectively slapped in the face by an Autocannon to make it worth more than a Twin Lascannon. Against T7, 3+ models, the Lascannon outshines it completely even if the Autocannon fires double shots on average.

Quoth the Raven "You're gonna be shooting at a -1." 
   
Made in gb
Combat Jumping Rasyat




East of England

Leviathan Dread with Storm Cannon Array: 20 S7 -2 D2 shots hitting on 2+, now with 3 hunterkiller missiles strapped to it, for 325pts. Bargain!
   
 
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