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Longshot:  I think your calculations are off by a bit:

10x Firedragons + Spirit Stone/Holofield + Waveserpent ~ 300-350 points, depending on if you bought an exarch with gear.  Assuming you didn't, that's 900 points of FD.

A falcon with mandatory second gun, holofield and spiritstones will probably run around 200 points.  Three of them is 600.

Now you have to buy your mandatory HQ and troops selections.

While this army would hit like a ton of bricks in normal missions, in Escalation, you can easily remove between 1/3 to 1/2 of its effective firepower by careful deployment.  In fact, the stopping power drops off significantly against enemy troops in cover, since high S is wasted on low T troops, and the fact that they get tree saves mitigates the advantage of AP1.  Finally, the Firedragon army goes all to crap as soon as it gets assaulted.  I guess you'll probably want some Guardian EZ bake squads...

Maybe 2x Storm Squads w/ Flamers + Warlock
1x 10 FD mounted WS
2x 6 FD mounted in Falcons
Falcon
Farseer on bike
Farseer on bike

Although, Escalation will still screw you up pretty good.

In your other post, I fail to see how 3x WS + 3x Falcons = 540 points of victory point denial.  Hell, if I could buy all that for a mere 540 points, you wouldn't hear a PEEP OF COMPLAINT out of me.  Realistically, you'd be hard pressed to buy two kitted falcons and a waveserpent with that.

give that man a cookie!

 

exacly how it works. my fish are closer to 200 points each and the squads are bonded just in case. but it is in effect an armoured company of IFVs and some MBT support. the armies i have trouble with are things like IG armoured companies and iron warriors becaose of the lack of AT and necrons which anybody with any vehicles will have trouble with.

on the flip side CC themed armies hate me.

 

 

there are pros and cons for each force used as a tank company, but the main thing the devilfish lack that the wave serpents make up for is tank killing ability

 

comparison-

devilfish with target lock, targeting array, multi-tracker, smart missles, and fletchette launchers

pro-

skimmer, higher BS, resistant to crashing, very good in CC, shoot at multiple targets

con-

not a "fast" skimmer, prone to being stunned and shaken, no AT  or good AP weapon upgrades

 

falcon with spirit stone and eldar shield(the holo fields are currently only allowed on falcons so i will skip that), shuriken cannon and bright lance

pro-

fast skimmer, goot AT and anti-infantry, rsistant ot being stunned and shaken, reduces all incoming shots to S8, twin linked main gun

con-

less shots, lower BS, not good in CC, suseptable to crashing from being immobilized.

I think there are a few things people are forgetting here.

The first and foremost I think is that wave serpents are tanks. And now boys and girls (ya right) can you tell me what the only benefit of being a tank is? That's right, the only thing being a tank does for you is allow you to tank shock. While its rare (although it does happen occasionally) that you will actually get a squad to break due to tank shock, you can push squads around all over the place by landing on top of them. This can be used to force squads out of cover, push them behind terrain and even occasionally push them into (or out of) assault range. Its really an excellent tool for bullying your opponent. I think it doesn't get brought up here much due to the fact that you really can't quantify it in theory hammer. So whenever you have a round where your serpent can't shoot or doesn't have any good targets, I would suggest zooming 24" though the enemy lines and tank shocking as many squads as you can. Do this with 3 or 4 tanks a turn and you can cause all kinds of mayhem in the enemy army.

The other option that no one has really explored (mostly because its kind of boring) is the option to not get out of the transport (this was my solution to 3rd ed blood angles). Basically, if you have a scoring unit in an invincible transport, you can win the game by doing some minor damage to the enemy (mostly against their vehicles and other high cost / low model units) using just your transport guns. Then you can zoom to wherever you need to be at the end of the game and be there with your transported scoring units (which can pop out and melt some faces right at the end if they need to). Your enemy gives up a few victory points and you give up none.

Some things to think about.

i've not only explored it i have perfected it. thats why i have all min sized squads. the tanks are the killing power in my army not the troops

each of my fish with 7 shots at a better BS hit and wound just as much as a 12 man FW squad, but can also move and shoot, do well in CC, and can shoot indirectly as well as at different targets.

 

 

p.s. it isn't boring to play with or against in my experience.

Im jumping in mid tread without reading all of it, but my friend with the codex just got back to me and said that WS do not get holofields.

just FYI, hope it helps, sorry if it has been covered

Posted By Longshot on 09/13/2006 3:19 AM
Jesus christ. You can put holofields on serpents?

If that's true, I am quitting 40k.

3 serpents with spirit stones,holofields,whatever with 10 fire dragons each, 3 falcons with the kit.

Do you have any idea how hard it would be to kill a holofielded, spirit stoned wave serpent with lascannons? Man, GW is slowed.

i second that...already ridculous as it is to kill the damn things they just made it more nuts then you now have a 12" moving transport that can kill almost anything in the game.. fires everything.. reduces weapons str to less makes you roll and take the lowest ...can shrug of hits and keep going...so what if it costs alot more your more effective than a land raider

 

when they ever upgrade the dark eldar they better over amp their ships like they did for these fluff bunnies

@Reecius, Thanks for the heads-up. I am so glad for the good news that WS's do not get holo-fields. That makes me feel much more comfortable.

Darrian

Thank God!

The reason by the way why 3 falcons and 3 waveserpents would be 540 pts of VP denial is that 3 falcons is 630 pts and 3 waveserpents with holofields would be about 450 pts, there fore 1080 pts total. If you were to immobilize them all (much more likely than killing any of them) you would get 540 vps.

But at least now we don't have to worry about it. Thank you GW for not ending 40k

Aw, man.

Well, my World Eaters army is looking promising...

@Flavius Infernus, good call on the World Eaters. I have one and they are a blast. Just don't bring them to a serious RTT. Great players just eat them up. I play mine in a fun league and they are so much fun, as long as the number of skimmers my opponents play is low.

Darrian

Are we playing the same vehicle? [I know Vectored Engines' new ability is/might be in the new Codex so I'm talking about current ones] I have yet to have a Falcon go passed turn three in every game I have played them. [I've played them for about six months/ four games a week] They die, every time even with Sprit Stones and Holofield. And it's not like it's the only buggy I bring. [Two WS and Falcon are a standard load out for me] Most games they don't even get passed turn two.

Why is everyone else having such a different experience with them? I'd love to have the Falcons you guys seem to have.

So with my experience I'm going to answer the original question here. No WS are not that bad - in fact for me they suck. 180-200 points of non-table quarter contesting that dies on turn two every game.

One falcon is not enough. You need at least two, and three is pretty standard. One falcon and two wave serpents is not really better than one falcon by itself. Ditch your serpents and buy another falcon.

And you can't let them take that many shots--you have to use terrain to keep them as much as possible out of sight/range of things they're not shooting at. And don't let any monstrous creatures charge them (the hits still glance, and the holofield still works, but it can mean multiple glancing hits, which is what you need to avoid).

It's the multiple, medium-strength hits that are most dangerous to falcons. An autocannon or rapid-firing plasma gun is statistically the same as a lascannon versus a falcon. A 3-lascannon predator should never get a shot at a falcon if you can help it.

But you can eat a fair amount of fire from things that are dangerous to typical vehicles: assault cannons, melta-weapons, krak missiles. One or two shots from those types of weapons--because they still just glance--are worth the risk for a good firing/deploying position.

Guard - 3 Lisks - 3 inderect fire shots - 3 kills of my buggies on turn 2. 3 games in a row... dice hate me.

well as per the skimmer rules as long as you move over 6" everything always glances rather it be a las cannon, melta bomb, powerfist, wraith cannon etc...which is why tau and eldar tanks/transports are the best in the game  and make the best armored companies.

Dude, Celtic, you cannot play the game based on your perceptions of the dice hating you. That's bullcrap. You know what the odds are of killing a falcon with glancing hits are. Take two falcons and assume the odds will come out to be average in the long haul and you'll do fine.

Jeesh, the odds of a Basilisk killing a falcon are so astronomically low I can't believe your opponents aren't using some kind of voodoo on you.

@Celtic, Where do you play? I would love to play against a guy with your bad luck. I have never seen Wave serpents and Falcons destroyed as easily as you seem to lose yours.

I just lost in an RTT yesterday to an Eldar player. I wish he had your luck, his was average and that was enough to beat my marines.

Darrian

Come to New Mexico USA - I live there now. [Irelands cold] Come, destroy all my eldar Vehicles with glancing hits. [Glancing 6's of course - don't think I don't hate that. And I also hate my friend consistantly rolling two 6's for the results.] He is part native American - maybe he is using Voodoo on me.

I know it sounds like I'm complaining but it's gotten to the point where I've stopped playing Eldar. [Especially against guard/ armies with indirect fire for the reasons listed above. I can't hide from them - well at least the lisks] Possibly running two Falcons would increase my odds.

[Although odds never work for me - just yesterday [Saturday] I had 13 banshees [Remnants of two squads] charge 6 terminators and not kill any of them. [They saved the two wounds I mangaged to inflict] Actually I lost the combat when they killed 4 and both my squads ran away.

So, it's back to playing Marines.

According to Warseer the Wave Serpents can't take Holofields in the new Dex. Praise the Emperor if they're right.

I too hope they cannot, Holofield Falcons are almost unkillable, even with my Missile Pod spam. If they then have 2-3 holofield Waveserpents zooming around unloading aspect warriors in my face it might get tricky.

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 09/18/2006 9:50 AM
According to Warseer the Wave Serpents can't take Holofields in the new Dex. Praise the Emperor if they're right.

Thank God.  Damn wave serpents were too hard to take down already. And they make my Lascannons S8.  I hope they got a price hike.  Thank God for Assault Cannons.

Hmm.

So, anyone got a solid lead on the points. I have only been getting ranges.

At what price without the options of holofields would they be useful?

I think I may try an Eldar fleet anyways. Could be fun to do like Mechanized Tau.
Between TL Scatter Lasers/Starcannons/Bright Lances and Shuriken cannons, they have a decent amount of firepower, plus the blazingly fast and ability to tank shock, they may be useful yet, if they drop in price enough.

Posted By bigchris1313 on 09/18/2006 10:32 AM

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 09/18/2006 9:50 AM
According to Warseer the Wave Serpents can't take Holofields in the new Dex. Praise the Emperor if they're right.

Thank God.  Damn wave serpents were too hard to take down already. And they make my Lascannons S8.  I hope they got a price hike.  Thank God for Assault Cannons.

Making WS like Falcons (near unkillable) would be bad for the game.  I'm not so concerned for my Marines (I'm sure my most Las/Plasiest, Tank Hunting Assault Canniest list of provalone would do them in), but when it comes to running my Boyz, who have a hard time with Skimmers as it is, having something like that would just make it even more of an auto-loss than it is now against a well built Eldar list.

So forgive me if I'm happy that they don't become as godlike as the Falcon.

Another change Warseer discussed is the Waveserpent will now be able to hold 12 models and also a weapons platform. In the past I used mine to deliver Guardians w/ Warlock to shoot and hold positions (late in the game). Adding a weapon platform to it adds to its' usefullness for me. They aren't as good as Falcons, but I don't need them to be. My Falcons are tipping 200 points a model; I don't need non scoring transports to cost as much.

All things point to them not being that much less expensive.