Posted By Elusive71 on 09/21/2006 2:41 PM

Wow. That was unnecessary.

There's plenty of people in the hobby who's primary interest is the painting and modeling aspect. As a matter of fact, what drew me to Dakka years ago was the number of very talented painters and modelers. Sadly some of them have moved on, but there's still many here and throughout the community who would find the prospect of pre-painted, pre-assembled miniatures unappealing and boring without being "elitist, artistic prima donnas".

As for RanTheSid's comment about his kids, could it be that he simply meant that pre-painted, pre-assembled (and most likely durable) miniatures, will be just the thing for when his kids are old enough for him to introduce them to gaming?

*EDIT - Kotrin, most 5 or 6 year olds (i.e. Kindergarten - First Grade) know better than to eat their toys.*

I should have known better. All my comments above should have been taken with a grain of salt, some kind of dry humor. Maybe I should have added more smileys, you know.

Onto the "schism": I eggagerate a bit (the elitist artistic prima donna could well be myself) but truth is, I don't get how people dare to complain about prepainted. It does not deprive them of anything. When I wrote that people could buy a spray can and have undercoated minis instead, I really meant it.

The only valid issue is that one might not want to pay for prepainted quality if he plans to paint himself instead. But, as the Eldar Battleforce shows, the point is really moot: AT-43 starter set is as expensive as GW miniatures, unassembled and unpainted. Of course, if Rackham delivers sprues of AT-43 miniatures at half price, everything will be even better, but only time will tell.

Regarding the young kids: as a father myself, I'm always up to find a game suitable for children. But again, the point is moot: "painted" (pre- or not) doesn't mean "toy". AT-43 rules might well be too complex for a 6-year old to handle, like Necromunda.

For my daughter, in a few years from now I'm more inclined to Warhammer Quest, Man O'War, Space Hulk and the like. This has really nothing to do with miniatures themselves.

I have been following these two different camps of thought regarding prepainted and non painted for sometime. And I think its a very interesting arguement.

Personally I dislike snobbery of any kind, its bad enough in music. The old "You like this band so how can you like that other band you fake!" arguement is a waste of time and ultimately excludes people from enjoying music. Ignoring one thing and spending time at only one aspcet of something else is going to leave you fairly 1 dimensional in tastes. In a similar way this arguement does the same.

However thats not to say that we can't disagree, the world would be a dull and uninteresting place if we all thought the same thing all the time. As to the comments about courtesy. This is an internet forum, everyone knows that people have arguements on forums, and a problem with the written word is the inability to decifer tone and emphasis. For example something written in sarcasm can be seen as deadly serious and offensive. I think we are all big enough to speak our minds, this is a community after all and would be a fairly useless one if we didn't do so.

So finally onto my viewpoint on this debate.

I dislike the notion of prepainted figures... no rather I dislike Rackhams decision to make them bendy plastic. Thats not because Iam an elitist hardcore hobby nut that worships my paint brush nightly next to my icon of Khorne. Far from it.

I dislike this approach as I believe providing kids with prepainted bendy plastic models limits their creativity and modelling opportunity. If we are to stand apart from video games that provide kids with an uninteresting force fed fantsy world and provide an alternative hobby to kids, something that can stimulate their creativity, intellect, math, and imagination, then handing them the hobby on a plate with French Fries is not the way to go.

For me the hobby (wargamming, modelling, painting, sculpting, reading background books, and the artwork) is the most important thing. Not only one aspect of it, but the enjoyment and cultivation of all of it. I beleive that the hobby is a great thing for kids. It gets them interacting with other people, using their creativity, using their mind to solve tactics and basic math, and fires their imagination. Much healthier than staring at a TV screen.

By dumbing down one element more than others we are robbing people of that particular aspect of the hobby. The flip side of the coin obviously is that it may very well attract more people into the hobby. Which is of course a good thing. But the bad side is it will breed a kind of lazyness in kids getting in RPG and wargaming. "Why build one and paint it if I don't have to?"

I dont know about you guys but when i started the hobby at 12 years old all my self painted models sucked hard! They looked dreadful. But to me at that time they were the most amazing models I'd ever produced. The pride and satisfaction I took from my painting and my conversions were immense. That is what we are taking away from kids if we give them an easy option out, and the only thing that Iam worried about.

Please feel free to reply and lets talk about it some more. As I'm sure some people may disagree, but I hope you can understand that from the anti pre painted aspect of the arguement the concerns are not elitist or snobish but genuine and in a middle ground. I hope that we can agree on the sentiments at least and the reasons for what made us all love the hobby so much in the first place.

Of course for sure the hobby isn't just about kids.

But if it is going to have a future and a target audience in year X we need to get young people into the hobby for sure.

The youth market is one aspect of sales and participation yes, as is the adult market. But I think we can see with the evidence of GW sales and the LOTR bubble that a lot of that was down to a younger audience.

For adults maybe prepainted is more appropriate and in that role I think it serves well. But in my opinon I still see teens / young adults in a similar positon as younger gamers. We should as adults be encouraging the same principles in them as well.

Imagination, social interaction, creativity, problem solving and tactical thinking. These are all important things in life. Even if a large part of the industry is aimed at 16 - 20 yr olds I think the same principles should apply to them as well as the 10 - 12 market.

Posted By Triggerbaby on 09/21/2006 5:20 PM

Posted By Drake_Marcus on 09/21/2006 3:53 PM
That's how I took Ran's comment. And Kotrin- please try and keep a more civil tone

Civil? Civil? It hurts me to see how damn polite Dakka has become. I don't know what people have been writing in this thread (because reading before replying is for mommy-clutching sissies) but I do know that Games Workshop has always been about pointing out how cretinous people are. But nowadays all you kids talk about is crap like painting miniatures and playing the game. That's not wargaming. Calling random internet strangers fatty buttergolems is wargaming. Even the supposedly "shark infested" You Make the Call is a My-Little-Pony healing circle compared to the wonderfully well-oiled dick pit of yesteryear. I never used to leave Dakka with a full bladder.

You people wonder why GW is having problems? It's because we're not allowed to make 14-year-olds cry on the internet. For shame.

I'm not sure what all the hulla-ballo is about.  When I break out my lovingly crafted and converted Ork horde onto a beautifully terra-formed table at a hobby store, I'd much rather see a bunch of pre-painted marines on the other side than 40 shiny metal statues with no arms. 

If this means more painted and rep armies on the table, I say bring it!!!

Posted By Tim on 09/22/2006 10:05 AM
My predection, If these games do well, GW will produce a pre-painted space marine army within the next 3 years.

I don't care if I play against unpainted figs. As long as the game companies keep putting out figs I can paint and model myself, I am ok.

I'm a little fuzzy on this logic.  I'm all about the game itself looking cool.  Otherwise, why not just play a board game?   If you don't care if your opponent plays with unpainted figs, empty bases, etc, why not just play a prepainted fig game and go buy cool models from a model shop to assemble??

As for telling units appart, that's not that tricky.  The clicks games have been dealing with that problem for years.  Most folks use a bit of paint, marker, or some other indicator.  "Hobbiests" could always choose to paint up their armies shoulder pads really cool or something.

I don't think painting and modeling is going away.  I DO think what may be happening is the world used to be like this: Painters and modelers would choose from games like GW, PP, Mongoose, Rackham.  People who don't like to paint, but like miniature gameing could choose from Wizkids, WoTC, etc.

Now, what Mongoose (and Rakcham too, perhaps) is experimenting with is a game system that allows both types of players to play togeather.  Hobbiests can still build, paint, and convert.  Non-painters can have armies that look cool with no effort.  And both can play the same great game.

I can't see the down side.

Posted By supabeast on 09/22/2006 4:39 PM
I have to admit, I agree with some of Toreador's points. There is a great loss for aesthetics when gamers move to cheaply molded and painted plastic models. Ethical concerns are also important - it's no secret that Chinese factory workers are little more than oppressed peasants who may not even have a choice about working for slave wages in the local American junk plants. By purchasing pre-painted minis we're supporting a totalitarian state, as well as what often amounts to slavery. GW, on the other hand, employs Americans and Europeans (with the exception of GW's book printing, which has been done in China for years) and pays them some of the best wages in the games industry. So we have a choice: support other gamers, or support a communist state that has murdered more people than any regime in history (60-100 million of its own people, depending on who you ask), allows no basic freedoms to its people, and forces people into menial work while most of the money coming into the nation goes to corrupt bureaucrats and their cronies, or we can keep paying more to GW and assemble our own minis.

Anyone with a conscience should have no trouble determining which choice is ethically/morally correct.

But, I also have to consider what 'Russ said: "I'd much rather see a bunch of pre-painted marines on the other side than 40 shiny metal statues with no arms."

And isn't it worth thousands of Chinese peasants suffering so that those of us lucky enough to have been born in North America or Western Europe don't have to look at unpainted minis?

Posted By supabeast on 09/22/2006 4:39 PM
I have to admit, I agree with some of Toreador's points. There is a great loss for aesthetics when gamers move to cheaply molded and painted plastic models. Ethical concerns are also important - it's no secret that Chinese factory workers are little more than oppressed peasants who may not even have a choice about working for slave wages in the local American junk plants. By purchasing pre-painted minis we're supporting a totalitarian state, as well as what often amounts to slavery. GW, on the other hand, employs Americans and Europeans (with the exception of GW's book printing, which has been done in China for years) and pays them some of the best wages in the games industry. So we have a choice: support other gamers, or support a communist state that has murdered more people than any regime in history (60-100 million of its own people, depending on who you ask), allows no basic freedoms to its people, and forces people into menial work while most of the money coming into the nation goes to corrupt bureaucrats and their cronies, or we can keep paying more to GW and assemble our own minis.

Anyone with a conscience should have no trouble determining which choice is ethically/morally correct.

But, I also have to consider what 'Russ said: "I'd much rather see a bunch of pre-painted marines on the other side than 40 shiny metal statues with no arms."

And isn't it worth thousands of Chinese peasants suffering so that those of us lucky enough to have been born in North America or Western Europe don't have to look at unpainted minis?

Let me guess: the Chinese are a poor, opressed people, struggling and chafing under the yoke of their tyrannical Communist masters, yearning for the day when they will be elevated from their slavery and allowed Democracy? You've never set foot in China, have you?

I've met to these people. Chinese factory workers are not oppressed peasants. They are piss-poor peasants toiling with archaic agricultural practices on increasingly crowded land (remember the "One Child" Policy? It's there for a reason). They go to the coast to work in factories because a factory actually pays them a wage. It's dull, soul-crushing work, but they prefer it to the alternative of dirt-farming. Moreover, with China's economy  being what it is, skilled factory workers are in high demand. If they don't like the conditions, there's about fifty other factories within spitting distance that are desperate for a good pair of hands.

I want to get snarky and insulting, I really do. But there's something more important to convey: China is going to own all of us within two generations. They will be the richest, most powerful, most unified nation on earth, and no, there's not a goddamn thing you or I can do about it. Their knowledgable and determined, and they've been planning ahead. I just don't want it to come as a surprise when you wake up one day and realize that China's GDP exceeds that of the EU and US.  

Posted By supabeast on 09/22/2006 4:39 PM
I have to admit, I agree with some of Toreador's points. There is a great loss for aesthetics when gamers move to cheaply molded and painted plastic models. Ethical concerns are also important - it's no secret that Chinese factory workers are little more than oppressed peasants who may not even have a choice about working for slave wages in the local American junk plants. By purchasing pre-painted minis we're supporting a totalitarian state, as well as what often amounts to slavery. GW, on the other hand, employs Americans and Europeans (with the exception of GW's book printing, which has been done in China for years) and pays them some of the best wages in the games industry. So we have a choice: support other gamers, or support a communist state that has murdered more people than any regime in history (60-100 million of its own people, depending on who you ask), allows no basic freedoms to its people, and forces people into menial work while most of the money coming into the nation goes to corrupt bureaucrats and their cronies, or we can keep paying more to GW and assemble our own minis.

Anyone with a conscience should have no trouble determining which choice is ethically/morally correct.

But, I also have to consider what 'Russ said: "I'd much rather see a bunch of pre-painted marines on the other side than 40 shiny metal statues with no arms."

And isn't it worth thousands of Chinese peasants suffering so that those of us lucky enough to have been born in North America or Western Europe don't have to look at unpainted minis?

Poor soul, why are you still living in the Stone Age? Your view of China is at least 3 decades back. So, instead of making a fool for yourself. Open your eyes up and take a look around the world and try to understand why there is so much racism in America.

Back in around WW2, the nationist government in China was so corrupt that there was absolutely no future for the country. Any intelligent or educated person would support the communist at that time and that was how it came to power. Yes, many people were sarcificed and the communists made many mistakes but overall the whole country moves forward. This will never be achieved under a democratic government. If you know anything about the chinese history or background, you would know that this was the only way.

I dont like to shift topic but I CANNOT STAND ignorant people.

Posted By wildger on 09/27/2006 9:16 PM

(...) Yes, many people were sarcificed and the communists made many mistakes but overall the whole country moves forward. This will never be achieved under a democratic government.

Boy, those sentences give me chills. "okay 50 millions dead, but at least we have reached 20th century!" I wonder how people like you manage to link the two notions. Those people had to die? A form of sacrifice?

Tell me, how many people died in say, Denmark, to have the country "move forward"? Oh, but maybe in your twisted mind Denmark isn't a democratic government....

 Wildger, your first post on Dakka is not a good one.

I dont like to shift topic but I CANNOT STAND ignorant people.

+1 - about yourself. Go learn a bit about mass murder in China and the oppressive state, then - if you have an elementary form of conscience - you will feel ashamed by your very own statements.

(just in case - it has nothing to do with prepainted miniatures)

I hope we will get back to AT-43 before this topic gets locked.

This thread gets five stars from me in interesting points and discussion.

I really enjoyed the debate about prepainted vs non painted. And this new socio economic discussion is also interesting.

Supabeast one thing I will say is that having worked for GW for 3 years I can tell you that no way do they pay their staff some of the best wages in the industry! GW wages suck hard! I'm afraid that unless your name is Jes Goodwin or Tom Kirby your getting it rough sucka.

As to the point about minis and china etc etc.

Where do you think we get our shoes, socks, briefs, cd's, coffee cups, magazines, paper.... need I go on.

The fact is that being one of the worlds most rapidly expanding economies (along with India) pretty much everything you own or see in day to day life would have started life in a factory in Asia.

Why? Because Westerners don't want to work in factories. Totally I dislike the Communist Government and its treatment of human rights abuses ( Tianamenn Square was a disgrace), but your view of Chinese society is to be polite extremely naive. Hong Kong since reclaimation has still stayed fairly similar to how it was during British occupation, and just look at the "free trade zones" like Shanghai and Beijing.

How can a country claim to be communist if it encourages selective capitalism? Communist in regalia and state image yes, but not so communist in economic and business development. China is changing and either we will get a neo communism that follows the current trends or it will gradually be phased out all together till the country becomes democratic. Its just a natural progression.