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Posted By Ghaz on 10/04/2006 9:01 PM
Let's see how Privateer Press would handle all of the vitriol that GW receives from people who supposedly enjoy their game. They would most likely become just as jaded about listening to the players as GW has.

I admit it, Privateer Press has its problems.  Everytime I stand across the table from Sorcha and The Old Witch I'm reminded of it.  But you make a point in your comment and its probably the reason the relationship between Games Workshop and its players is in the sorry state it is.  Games Workshop has become jaded and the community suffers for it.  Even you're able to see the distinction as evidenced by your comment.  There -is- a difference between PP's relationship with its players and GW's.

I would say one is healthier than the other's.  Whether that is because one company and community is smaller, allowing for an easier dialogue or because one company is weathered and jaded, its irrelevent.  The difference is there.

I enjoy 40k (really I enjoy Adepticon) and I'll continue to play and I'll continue to buy (when there is a release for Sisters/Guard/Nurgle).

And no I'm not a shill.  I might like to be, though.
Privateer Press, Call Me!

The only point of this thread was to separate it from the "Interesting" thread about the new release announce by PP in news and rumors.

I DO think there is some value in gamers pointing out the policies they like in a company. Hopefully other companies will copy the things we like, and make the experience better for everyone.

Posted By pnweerar on 10/04/2006 5:49 PM
"GW vs PP: Who has a bitz ordering service versus has no interest in ever offering one, even though they are so 'hobby friendly'?"

Just to clarify, this is innacurate. According to a conversation in person with Matt Wilson and which has been expressed in other areas, a bit service is not only something they desire to do, but they are working on implementing it.

There is a pilot set for this here:
privateerpress.bigstep.com/item.jhtml

Posted By Ghaz on 10/04/2006 9:01 PM

Posted by redstripe on 10/04/2006 8:51 PM
Ghaz, are you a company man?

Are you a company man for Privateer Press, because your post sure makes it sound like you're on their payroll. GW has in the past been involved with the community and all they got for it is comments like the ones I see in this thread. Let's see how Privateer Press would handle all of the vitriol that GW receives from people who supposedly enjoy their game. They would most likely become just as jaded about listening to the players as GW has.

Posted by The Happy Anarchist on 10/04/2006 10:00 PM
Seriously. Privateer Press doesn't have perfect rules and the only ones saying that there is sainthood involved is Ghaz.

I don't think so. I never said the either company had 'perfect' rules, yet GW is treated like the devil if they 'tweak' some of the rules in a new edition of a codex and yet they act like Privateer Press can do no wrong and it is perfectly okay for them to 'tweak' some rules in an updated version of Prime is just hypocrisy as far as I see it.

Posted by Jeff on 10/04/2006 9:40 PM
Ghaz the only place anyone has claimed PP is flawless is in your head.

I never said either company was flawles. What I said is it's hypocritical to damn on company for it's flaws and then to forgive the other company for the very same flaws.

So no, I'm not a GW 'fanboy' and I'm not a Privateer Press 'fanboy' either like a lot of you seem to be.

Do you think the vitriol and GW hate sprung up from nowhere?  Do you think we are complaining for gaks and giggles?

The difference between Privateer Press' tweaks and GW's tweaks is that PP really are tweaks. 
Here are some classic GW tweaks.
ATSKNF - Drastically different from the way it was before
Pathfinder's Devilfish - Guess what, your forward deployment vehicle just holds you back!
Mixed Toughness overrides drones - Your protective shield drones no longer work as advertised
Deep Striking Skimmers - Suddenly can't do the same thing that infantry can do.

Can you find anything that is comparable from Privateer Press?

GW Price raises - Double the price of some models that hasn't been changed, resculpted or had any new parts in a decade.  
PP Price raise - Keep most prices the same, prices on new figs slowly raising by a couple of bucks, generally on models that are larger, more detailed or resculpts of old models.

GW Editing - Use some scissors to cut these corrections out and glue them in yourself.  (Note, this takes place quite a while after the fact)
PP Editing - Bone up to the mistake, put nice looking and solid stickers over the mistake and correct it before the item even ships.   This on arguably unnecessary fluff piece, not even containing rules.

PP on listening to customers - You asked for it, here are campaign rules.  You asked for it, here is a new remixed Prime.  And better than you asked for, in full color with new artwork and fluff and ALL the new rules in a concise package.   How much for this gem?   $25 (About the price of a Chapter Approved compilation from GW.  Which is really the better deal?)
GW on listening to customers - Here is your FAQ.   Follow this flow chart and dice off any problems.  This will solve everything.   Oh wait, still pissed off?  Let me get back to you in two years with a shoddy FAQ that doesn't answer many pressing questions, adds questions where none were before, and changing the way certain units are played entirely.

There is a reason that PP is more well liked than GW.  It's because they treat their customers well.
I guess you could say that PP has some of the same problems GW does.  It is the way that they handle them that makes them get treated like the good guys and GW treated like they are.   They are reaping the rewards of their respective actions.

There is a reason that PP is more well liked than GW.  It's because they treat their customers well.

Which customers are you referring to? Stores, or players? Both buy from PP, both are customers. GW treats me a lot better, and are a lot easier to deal with. They also make it easier to take care of my customers.

1)     If someone in my store comes in with a broken GW model, I just hand them one off the shelf. GW ships me a new one when I call it in, and doesn't ask for the model back, paperwork, or anything. It makes it very easy to make the customer happy. 

     If the customer comes in with a bad PP model. I shrug and tell them PP wants them to call the piece in themselves. Sorry for the wait.

     If I open a box and find out all my jacks are missing one leg, then I'm in the same spot as the customer, only it's me sending an email, and waiting 2 to 4 weeks to get the parts I need to sell their defective product.

2) When I want more racks for GW product, they send me new racks. When I want more racks for PP, I call a supply house, and spend a couple hundred dollars.

3) I like that PP has a tournament package. I dislike that twice now I have had tournaments screwed up when they don't send them to me, even after calling to confirm they got the emails, and were sending them out.

Not so much *female dog*ing about PP, as pointing out that they still have a long way to go, to do some of the things that GW has been doing for years, and that the service they provide to some of their customers isn't as good as what they do for others.

I like(d) 40k. I'm tired of discovering that half the units are broken or unusable, only to have those workable units become crap when the next edition comes out. I'm tired of a game system that is designed for larger games.

I like Warmachine. I like painting smaller forces, I like the variety of units/figures within each faction, and like the challenge of the game. I don't like the price (though I deal with it better because there's fewer stuff), I don't like the small selection of factions. I don't like the lack of bits to allow for conversions.

Here's what I like, at the end of the day. I like games that are supported. I like rules that allow me to play and not have a half-hour argument. I like systems that inspire me to create new and interesting armies. I like to use the models I have and the models I want. I like fast-paced games, smaller model-count games, and the pride of having a fully painted army that doesn't overwhelm my bookshelf. I like knowing my figs/armies/units don't become obsolete with each new release, and I like new releases that supplement, enhance or change the way I look at my current units/armies/figs.

Right now, PP and 40k COD is doing that for me (as would killteam and Combat Patrol). I'm tired of tournament 40k, I'm tired of not being able to put together lists that make me happy, and I'm tired of watching whole painted armies become so much trash. If PP can make me happy, great. If GW can make me happy, great. If 5150 or Warlord or Rules with No Name or No Quarter or VOID can make me happy, great!

And in before lock.

Posted By syr8766 on 10/05/2006 3:44 PM
I like(d) 40k. I'm tired of discovering that half the units are broken or unusable, only to have those workable units become crap when the next edition comes out. I'm tired of a game system that is designed for larger games.

I like Warmachine. I like painting smaller forces, I like the variety of units/figures within each faction, and like the challenge of the game. I don't like the price (though I deal with it better because there's fewer stuff), I don't like the small selection of factions. I don't like the lack of bits to allow for conversions.

Here's what I like, at the end of the day. I like games that are supported. I like rules that allow me to play and not have a half-hour argument. I like systems that inspire me to create new and interesting armies. I like to use the models I have and the models I want. I like fast-paced games, smaller model-count games, and the pride of having a fully painted army that doesn't overwhelm my bookshelf. I like knowing my figs/armies/units don't become obsolete with each new release, and I like new releases that supplement, enhance or change the way I look at my current units/armies/figs.

Right now, PP and 40k COD is doing that for me (as would killteam and Combat Patrol). I'm tired of tournament 40k, I'm tired of not being able to put together lists that make me happy, and I'm tired of watching whole painted armies become so much trash. If PP can make me happy, great. If GW can make me happy, great. If 5150 or Warlord or Rules with No Name or No Quarter or VOID can make me happy, great!

And in before lock.

Now that's the kind of criticism I can see.  Abolutely crystal clear examples of GWs policies being better than PPs.

I am not a store owner myself, but I am sure there are a few where GW is annoying on.   I've heard horror stories, but those seem more like isolated incidents.

I'm wondering if some of your concerns could perhaps be improved upon if you contacted the PP gang about them?  That's one of the things about them, I am willing to give them the chance to listen.  I've seen them do it before.
I have seen GW blatantly ignore loud cries for something that every other game company considers standard operating procedure.

Yes, it sure seems like the Privateer Press fanboys take every opportunity that they can to slam GW.


Once we see what these 'tweaks' are you'll have your answer.


$20 for a single cavalry model. Enough said.


PP's 'editiing' - change the rules in a book and call it 'Remix'.


GW has listened to customers in the past. They got tired of listening to people like you and your oft times baseless complaints just like I've grown tired of it as well. Why should they bother listening to customers like you who insult them and denigrate them at every chance they get and yet they turn around and praise another company for doing the EXACT SAME THING?


I don't care if one company is 'liked' more that the other it's just the hypocrisy from people like you who think Privateer Press can do no wrong and GW can do nothing right when both companies have done the same thing.

I'm a long time lurker who has to speak up at this point:

GW vs PP, I'd have to say PP handles rules changes better. Hands down.

But since this thread has gone beyond that, overall, GW does treat me better than PP does.

I'm not the greatest painter, and I hate "learning" from a book. If I want help painting, PP isn't there for me. But I can go to the GW and get free help. Same goes for any modeling help.

I'm not a huge fan of spending oodles of time on the Interweb. If I have questions, or want to bounce ideas off somebody, I can't turn to PP. But I can do it at the local GW.

When I go to a Warmachine/Hordes tournament, I'm lucky to play against 10 players. If I go to a GW tournament, I'm looking at 2 - 5 times that amount. Though I like the Warmachine/Hordes prizes more, their tournaments don't get me as excited as the GW ones do.

I like Warmachine/Hordes alot - I think the game is cool, I like the scale, I really like the Unit models, though I'm not a fan of the Jacks. Gotta love the Warbeasts though, which is why I play Circle. Can't wait until my full model range is released.

But I have no problem paying more at the GW than my local shop for models/rules because I am getting better overall value for my dollar at the GW. I've heard of horror staff stories before, but the staff at the GWs in my area are helpful, informative, and most importantly, not pushy. When the Orc and Goblin army box came out, they were not like:"Hey Mr. Dwarf player, you know you want these Orcs! These Orcs kill all and win all games! Buy this box now!" Instead they keep me happy with hobby help and various free events, which keeps me coming back for more.

PP does almost nothing to keep me interested aside from releasing cool models and rules (though they do that very well!) If the shop owner where I buy my PP stuff didn't play the game himself and run semi-regular tournaments, I doubt PP would have ultimately kept my interest.

Zoned.

Man i'd like to see what game system is around in 30 years. We will be payin $2500 for a battle force!!!

Seriously though there are many die hard PP fans on here and that is fine but PP followers are not that widespread ( this is only my observation on what i've seen).

I have met people who rave on about its merits but i love my GW man and i like their minis better ( again my own opinion) but you've got about as much chance of calling a truce here as you do in palestine so i think people should just get over it. There are more important things to worry about like chinese food, llama conservation and a boycott on subway till they get mushrooms dammit!

PP is a young company that needs to be seen as better then GW to survive. That's good for the hobby, as it makes people look as GW and think "why can't they do that". If enough people are impressed by PP, GW will have to step up or start to die out. I think GW is already feeling the loss of consumers, they just need to be proactive and make there product better. I do believe GW can make a "Better" product and I want to see it. So I want to see PP's supeior rules and game play, so I can one day see GW make a better product. I also hope GW never beats out PP in the market place, because we need those two to battle it out. That and Warmachine rocks in ways 40K can't, just as 40K does things warmachine can't.

Sure, the "errata" that they later had to remove from Baldur's feat that required your opponent to be able to see the future before making any activations.



How about the color cards that had such wonderful "oops" on them as Goreshade's mageblight being an upkeep spell, or the Centurion being immune to all slams from the front? Did they offer free replacements for those and I missed it? Last I heard it was a case of "some color cards override the rulebook (Sorscha), and some don't (Goreshade)."

Fact of the matter is, PP is far from perfect. They have a nice product, but they are prone to the same mistakes GW is. It's just the people championing the product have a bad habit of forgiving them for the same things they rip GW for.

I just like one thing better : the rules themselves. I dont care about tweaking, its inevitable.

But in Warmachine/Hordes , the games get decided more on skill then on building a list.

You can deny it as much as you want, but there is almost no skill in actually playing 40k. Its just min/maxing a list untill it will almost win by itself.

PP isn't perfect, but damn me if I wouldn't jump off a cliff at their request. Same for Mongoose. Why? Becuase they ARE small and they DO listen to their customers. Hy do I hat GW? Becuase they don't do either of those terribly well.

For the record, I love 40K. It's my favorite miniatures game. It plays better than warmachine/hordes. Warmachine is all about powergaming and trying to bring a more powerful combo than your opponent. 40K is a little tactics, a army comp, and a fair amount of luck. 40K is a beer & pretzelts game. 40K lets you field huge armies with ots of differant stuff and not have it take forever and a day to play. Warmachine is exact movements with exact measurments. 40K allows you to make all comers lists. In Warmachine, the official tournaments allow two diferant lists becuase it's impossible to make an all comers list that does well. The two games operate differantly and both do what they do fairly well. PP has a MUCH tighter rules set. I still like 40K better.

But as for the companies, that's a whole differant story. PP and Mongoose can almost do no wront to me at this point. They ARE saints.Why? Becuase they earned that devotion from me. Problem with the rules? BAM! already discussing it on their website. Not sure why something works a particular way? Oh looky, it's the game designers talking about it on the forums.

In the past, GW was awesome. Currently, I wouldn't piss on the developement team if they were dying of thirst. Why do I loathe GW? becuase they earned it. I used to love GW. I used to be their biggest fanboy. But I've sat for years needing an FAQ and not having one, or having one that doesn't answer valued questions. I've watched their official magazine (an ideal place for such FAQs) go down the crapper. I've talked with the dev team at gamesdays, I've dealt with the company through being an outrider and through working at my FLGS. I've gone to convetnions, both regular (GENCON& local cons) and industry only (GAMA), and seen PP, talked with PP, played PP demos; but no GW in sight. I've had GW armies that were made virtually unplayable by new editions, had GW models that were outright unusable in new editions. I've spent literally thousands of dollars on GW, watched for years as the game became more and more tournament oriented, and yet they refuse to make the effort to write a solid, tight rules system. 4+ does NOT cut it, not when I have a $500 army that I spent months painting and paid another $200 to play in a grand tournament. Roll a 4+? How about use some of thousands I've paid you to hire a friggen editor?!

PP, they get it. Mongoose, they get it. GW had it, but they got too big. Is it just becuase PP is small and new? Will they go down the same road as GW in the years to come? Absolutely, no question about it, and at that time I'll be just as bitter. But that changes nothing, it's completely irrelevant. For the past few years, Right now, and in the near future, Privateer Press rocks you like a hurricane. When it comes to games, I loves me my 40K (poorly written rules and all), but GW can suck it.

My experiences with GW are very similar to Kalaladea's, both via conventions and the retail side, except replace 40K with Fantasy for the most part. I have tried several times over the last few years to get back into both 40K and Fantasy. I truely love the games and have made many good friends through the hobby. However I still can't bring myself to invest the time, money, and energy into what has esentially become arguementHammer.

I love the games and the worlds that GW has created. I really hate the fact that I have come to despise them so much. Everything that this hobby involves; the modelling, painting, learning the rules, fnding opponents, etc, asks a lot of a person and GW gives nothing back. Just shoddily written rules, constant price increases, and now the new WD's actually have pages of adds in the middle of the magazine. As if the new releases and articles about the models were'nt enough.

Oh well, Battlefleet Gothic was the best thing GW ever turned out anyway...

This is really a key point for a lot of players I think. I've been fiddling about playing in leagues and tourneys with WM and Hordes for about 7 months now. I think if I added up all the time I've spent arguing over rules in those games, they would be less than 1 game of 40k.  (To be honest, it would probably be less than 5 minutes)

As others have said, I WISH this weren't so. But it's my experience too.

But if we let this be known, and we support companies that DO help keep people spending time gaming instead of debating rules at the table, perhaps, just perhaps, the creators of our favorite gaming universe WILL figure it out.

 

Posted By Kommisar on 10/06/2006 12:35 PM
Oh well, Battlefleet Gothic was the best thing GW ever turned out anyway...

No, Dark Future was the best thing GW ever turned out. Closely followed by Golden Heroes and Fury of Dracula. None of which are in print anymore (except kinda FoD).

The best thing they've done that they still support (hah!) is Blood Bowl, and what they've done to that in recent years is a crying shame.

 

But meanwhile, back OT...

I don't know why Ghaz has the idea that all the people that are pissed at GW are PP fanboys?

I don't particularly like the scale (numbers of troops wise, the models are lovely) or the fact that Warmachine is all metal. I love plastics, I love the customizability of 40k units and armies.

The problem is, GW as a company is losing it. You want to see what they could be, check out their Specialist games. Being almost completely unsupported and they still turn out not one better product, but at least 4-5 products that are better supported, updated more regularly and all of them have FAQs!

Seriously, when an offshoot undersupported sidegames department of your company is doing a better job than your main bunch, there may be a problem.

Posted By Ghaz on 10/04/2006 9:11 AM
My point is clear that PP is not as faultless as everyone makes them out to be. If you are going to accuse GW of having to go back and change rules, then you will have to accuse PP of doing the same as well because that is what they're doing.

Except, unlike GW, PP is up front about it, and takes the time to explain it.

They see a problem, and are going to fix it, and explaining why: Eiryss, a model thats used is universally, is underpointed, we're oing to fix it.

 

PP is still light years ahead of GW in the rules department.

One other thing I should have mentioned, and I'm surprised nobody else has. How does bigger necessarily mean less support? Look at Wizards of the Coast. They produce and sell more than GW could even dream, between card games, collectable miniature games, and board games through Avalon Hill. They're owned by Hasbro, one of the biggest toy manufacturers around, and certainly more corporate than GW will ever be.

Even so, despite their size, they regularly update rules, errata, and answer qustions. A little too often for most people's liking, but still, how many Jedi Counselings have they put out for Star Wars minis? What about D&D minis? And their card games? They certainly have a better tournament scene. And yet I can go on the official WotC message boards and still talk to the higher ups. Some of the editors and authors regularly post on the Star Wars minis forum. I can't speak for the other forums since I don't frequent them, but I would imagine it's the same. And believe me, there is just as much pissing and moaning for that game that they sit and sort through and STILL look at to get to the real issues.

WotC is far bigger and far more corporate than GW ever will be, but they manage to strike a reasonable balance between pure profit-earning and keeping the customers happy. They still release new sets too often, especiallt for Magic TG, but at least if there's an issue with the rules they're Johnny on the Spot about fixing it, and for the most part the pieces and rules are well edited and playtested before release. If GW were to follow more of a WotC corporate model, I wouldn't be singing their praises, but I certainly wouldn't despise the company like I currently do.

Here's what I think it comes down to.

GW doesn't care if I play their game. Straight up - they don't give a damn. They've got this attitude like "OH well, if you leave we've got dozens more who will take your place." And it shows in everything they do - their crappy rules, incessant price hikes, and their overall attitude of laziness and arrogance.

Privateer Press cares if I play. They want me to play - not the generic "we want more people" but me personally. They'll listen to me, they'll answer my emails, and they'll help me out. If there's a problem, they'll try to fix it. They're really passionate about their game, and they care a lot about it and just like with GW - it shows.