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http://www.joachim-adomeit.de/wh40k/spacemap/map.html

Note the big red arrow across Segmentum Tempestus. I'd call that some serious in-roading.

True....but what has it "changed"??

Posted By Vult on 02/05/2007 4:38 AM
True....but what has it "changed"??

Exactly. I suppose the only - the only - noticeable change is that if you collect Ultramarines you can take Tyrannic War Veterans (and let's face it, this change came about due to a sales promotion, not because of any fluff).

So, twenty years of fluff and we get a slight change (that no one uses because it's worthless) to one subset (of countless) of one army (of 20+). Whoop-de-freakin'-do.

Nids are GW's backup plan for bankruptcy.

To cut costs, Nids will start eating one race after another. First Tau, then Eldar, then Orks, then Necrons (impossible though that may be), etc.

Hopefully Leviathan will be the basis for some future campaign. I'm guessing that the Nids won't take Terra somehow.

How about a mass Tyranid invasion? It could continue on from when at the end of the Tyranid fluff in their codex, Kryptman diverted them to an Ork system.

Posted By Vult on 01/30/2007 5:33 PM
All of the things you have mentioned were great ADDITIONS to the game but they did not CHANGE anything.

So basically you want them to take what they currently have and completely turn it on its head?  Why not just create a new game then?  Why spend all the effort making the 40K universe the way they want it if they're just going to toss it out?  What's wrong with the universe as it is now?

40K is not like a movie.  It's a setting, not a story.  A story has a beginning, a middle, and an end.  The "history" of the 40K universe is a story and the 41st millenium is somewhere in the middle of that story.  But the story can't be resolved without destroying the setting (unless you want to play "historical" games, in which case ending the story doesn't actually change anything).  That's why it's called "the end": everything interesting has happened so there's no sense to keep going just see the surviving characters fart around.

Now assuming you don't want them to end the story of 40K, any changes they make would simply alter the setting.  So what's the point of that?  It's not going to get you any closer to the "end".  And you can't really resolve anything without destroying parts of the setting.  For example, if you had the Emperor die and be reborn then you would lose the corpse-emperor, an essential feature of the setting.  The only reason to "advance" the story would be to change features of the setting.  Is that necessary?  Is the current setting lacking and in need of drastic change?

It's like Transformers The Movie.  The cartoon before the movie was fun, but it was "stagnant" - nothing really got resolved.  The episodes did not tell a story so much as flesh out the setting.  On the other hand the movie actually advanced the story: Optimus Prime died, Megatron was remade into Galvatron, and many of the old characters were killed off while new ones were introduced.  But the post-movie cartoon was nothing like the pre-movie cartoon.  The robots still transformed and stuff, and the show was still called "Transformers," but they might as well have called it "Go-Bots" since it was basically a completely different show.  The new episodes were just as "stagnant" as the old ones, but the setting they described had completely changed.  Is that what you want for 40K?

The biggest thing that the Necron codex did was enforce the feeling that the primarchs need to come back!

That would be an exceptionally bad idea.  The primarchs are figures of legend.  Having them walking around in the 41st millenium would detract from their legendary status.  All the primarchs are effectively "dead" from a plot perspective.  Yes, they're all supposed to come back for the apocalypse, but they have no further active role in the plot (until "the end" which will never happen without destroying the 40K universe).  For all intents and purposes their stories are as complete as they can get this side of the apocalypse.  You can't be a legend if your legend is incomplete, if your story has not been told from beginning to end.  Once you bring back a primarch, his story becomes unresolved and his legend is no longer complete.  How much would it have sucked if Darth Vader had survived Return Of The Jedi to fart around with Luke and company?

I think they best way to describe what I would like is this: I don't want all my questions answered, I would like some of the very longstanding ones answered through fluff, with new ones posed for me to ponder for another decade.  Just kinda give the wheel of time one full turn, nothing like the apocalypse, just maybe answer a few fluffy things we all sit around with our buddies pondering.  But don't give us closure because closure makes for boring, give us that bread crumb of an answer and then drop more clues in front of us!
Aztralwolf

Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 03/08/2007 5:26 AM

Posted By Vult on 01/30/2007 5:33 PM
All of the things you have mentioned were great ADDITIONS to the game but they did not CHANGE anything.

So basically you want them to take what they currently have and completely turn it on its head?  Why not just create a new game then?  Why spend all the effort making the 40K universe the way they want it if they're just going to toss it out?  What's wrong with the universe as it is now?

40K is not like a movie.  It's a setting, not a story.  A story has a beginning, a middle, and an end.  The "history" of the 40K universe is a story and the 41st millenium is somewhere in the middle of that story.  But the story can't be resolved without destroying the setting (unless you want to play "historical" games, in which case ending the story doesn't actually change anything).  That's why it's called "the end": everything interesting has happened so there's no sense to keep going just see the surviving characters fart around.

Now assuming you don't want them to end the story of 40K, any changes they make would simply alter the setting.  So what's the point of that?  It's not going to get you any closer to the "end".  And you can't really resolve anything without destroying parts of the setting.  For example, if you had the Emperor die and be reborn then you would lose the corpse-emperor, an essential feature of the setting.  The only reason to "advance" the story would be to change features of the setting.  Is that necessary?  Is the current setting lacking and in need of drastic change?

It's like Transformers The Movie.  The cartoon before the movie was fun, but it was "stagnant" - nothing really got resolved.  The episodes did not tell a story so much as flesh out the setting.  On the other hand the movie actually advanced the story: Optimus Prime died, Megatron was remade into Galvatron, and many of the old characters were killed off while new ones were introduced.  But the post-movie cartoon was nothing like the pre-movie cartoon.  The robots still transformed and stuff, and the show was still called "Transformers," but they might as well have called it "Go-Bots" since it was basically a completely different show.  The new episodes were just as "stagnant" as the old ones, but the setting they described had completely changed.  Is that what you want for 40K?

The biggest thing that the Necron codex did was enforce the feeling that the primarchs need to come back!

That would be an exceptionally bad idea.  The primarchs are figures of legend.  Having them walking around in the 41st millenium would detract from their legendary status.  All the primarchs are effectively "dead" from a plot perspective.  Yes, they're all supposed to come back for the apocalypse, but they have no further active role in the plot (until "the end" which will never happen without destroying the 40K universe).  For all intents and purposes their stories are as complete as they can get this side of the apocalypse.  You can't be a legend if your legend is incomplete, if your story has not been told from beginning to end.  Once you bring back a primarch, his story becomes unresolved and his legend is no longer complete.  How much would it have sucked if Darth Vader had survived Return Of The Jedi to fart around with Luke and company?

Alright man I have no idea where to begin with this post.  I dont know how to explain myself any better than what I have said before "science fiction has NO ENDING!!!!, you can take the story ANYWHERE YOU WANT!!!"  They can do anything with this game they want without ever "destroying" it.  It only takes some imagination.  There is absolutely no limit to what can be done and actually DOING something with it will liven up the game (why do you think War Machine is growing so fast!).  I honestly don't know what else to say to replies like this.  I don't understand the reluctance to see something done with the story of 40K. 

You said that if you kill the emperor so he can be reborn then you will no longer have the corpse-emperor.....well sorry to abuse the phrase but DUHHHHH! but THINK of how many possibilities that opens up for the future of 40K!  I mean then is something going to happen with the High lords of Terra? or could the Emperor's psychic abilities help divert anymore hive fleets from completely devouring the entire segmentum?  I mean because thats what it looks like the tyranids are capable of doing. 

Then the primarchs....i mean obviously there is nothing wrong with leaving them in the fluff because most of the chaos primarchs are still alive.  So why is it that NONE of the "good guys" can still be around? or come back?

*sigh* I just don't know what else to say with this....You cant argue for change against someone who is afraid of it *shrug*

Posted By Aztralwolf on 03/08/2007 5:51 AM
I think they best way to describe what I would like is this: I don't want all my questions answered, I would like some of the very longstanding ones answered through fluff, with new ones posed for me to ponder for another decade.  Just kinda give the wheel of time one full turn, nothing like the apocalypse, just maybe answer a few fluffy things we all sit around with our buddies pondering.  But don't give us closure because closure makes for boring, give us that bread crumb of an answer and then drop more clues in front of us!
Aztralwolf

Man I tell you that would be one AWESOME start to doing something with the story, well said.

Posted By Vult on 03/11/2007 5:29 AM
I dont know how to explain myself any better than what I have said before "science fiction has NO ENDING!!!!, you can take the story ANYWHERE YOU WANT!!!"  They can do anything with this game they want without ever "destroying" it.

You are completely missing the point.  40K is a setting, not a story.  It has a backstory, but that backstory is merely a "history" of how the current setting came to be.  When you sit down to design a setting first you decide how things are and then you create a backstory explaining how things came to be.  The backstory is an explanation of the setting, the setting is not a result of the backstory.

You're advocating they alter the setting by moving the timeline forward.  What's the point?  The only reason to do that would be to address some deficiency in the current setting.  Did they not design the current setting the way they wanted it?  If you're moving the timeline forward only for the sake of advancing the story then you're really putting the horse before the carriage.

Posted By Vult on 03/11/2007 5:29 AM
You said that if you kill the emperor so he can be reborn then you will no longer have the corpse-emperor.....well sorry to abuse the phrase but DUHHHHH! but THINK of how many possibilities that opens up for the future of 40K!

I can think of many possibilities, all of which suck.  The corpse-emperor has been a central feature of the 40K universe since the days of Rogue Trader.  It's a distinctive part of what 40K is all about.  40K without the corpse-emperor would be like Star Wars without the jedi.  Yes, there's nothing in the background that says that can't happen, but why would you want it to?

Posted By Vult on 03/11/2007 5:29 AM
Then the primarchs....i mean obviously there is nothing wrong with leaving them in the fluff because most of the chaos primarchs are still alive.  So why is it that NONE of the "good guys" can still be around? or come back?

Because that would be totally lame?  The primarchs are effectively dead for all practical purposes since they have zero direct impact on further events.  Bringing characters back from the dead is just lame.

Even the Chaos primarchs are effectively dead.  They're not really active any more; they don't do much except sit on their daemonworlds and take naps and stuff.  Some are simply missing (Fulgrim).  Others don't even have intact legions any more (Angron), and those that do often exert very little direct control over them.  In some cases their involvement is so marginal that internal conflict within their legion has erupted into open warfare on their own daemonworld (Perturabo).

The primarchs are supposed to return for the final battle.  Having them come back before the apocalypse would just cheapen them.  Not to get into a religious discussion, but the Christian tradition has Jesus returning for Armageddon.  So what if Jesus comes back and runs for president or something?  It's not Armageddon yet, he just felt like coming back early to fix Social Security and make sure seniors can afford their prescriptions and stuff.  Isn't that kinda underwhelming?

Posted By Vult on 03/11/2007 5:29 AM
*sigh* I just don't know what else to say with this....You cant argue for change against someone who is afraid of it *shrug*

I'm all for expanding the background.  If the Demiurg or the Hrud got an army that would be wonderful.  If some Old Ones and their servants returned that might also be cool.  But changing aspects of the setting which are integral to 40K is not a good idea.  If it ain't broke don't fix it.

I don't get the idea that 40k is somehow a story that GW is telling. I thought it was a setting with a few plot-hooks and loose-ends lying around around which people could tell their own stories.

I hate to use another game as an example.  But c'mon I feel that the setting not a story thing is a bit of a cop out.  Battletech. Not the new garbage incarnations, I mean the old school game I grew up playing.  The story was an ever evolving creature with plenty of twists and turns and everything else.  You cannot say that you can't evolve a setting, it is totally possible if you are willing to spend the time.  Problem is GW is just too fattened and happy, collecting all the money they do, they just don't give a rats ass.
Aztralwolf

I disagree. There were quite a few stories set in the Battletech universe as it was a broad setting. But since the setting only ranged from the introduction of the Mackie to whatever it is up to now, say 600 years, and an area of less than 1000 planets, it's a rather tiny setting compared to the Warhammer 40,000 galaxy, a setting stretching 10,000 years and an entire galaxy in space and time. Warhammer 40,000, at least in its Rogue Trader incarnation, was an extremely open setting for putting a gothic-fantasy twist on whatever sci-fi gaming scenario you wanted to play. If anything GW has completely underused the incredible breadth of this setting by limting itself to constantly re-iterating the established stories about individuals, organizations, and conflicts. I mean I understand how some people want narrative closure, but the whole point of these games is to provide it for yourself if you care to.

i think some changes would be good. i think a major change after a campaign would be good. think about WWI. the war ebbed and flowed. new weapons of war were created and used on the field. In the middle ages large regions would fracture and form new alliances. some areas had different resources than others and could put different types of soldiers in the field.
i think that the 40k universe could also be a fluid entity.
after the eye of terror campaign, chaos could have pushed further into further into imperial controlled space. Areas on the fringe of imperial\chaos space could show a little taint. some areas of could rebel against the imperium. not go to chaos but be independant. new rules could be added to these areas. Fringe colony codex updates. new special rules for different areas depending on their level of loyalty. new units for some areas. units only available to certain areas. then in the next campaign, the imperum could get a few advantages or special rules to show heroic attempts to reunite the empire and the balance of power would shift again. this new order would open up the gate for new models and codex updates. this would work for all types of incursion. nids into empire, orks into empire. etc. how about we push a campaign of nids into eldar space. with the other races taking advantage. pushing into new areas of the universe. maybe "for the greater good" some splinter tau units could join with other races to stem the flow.
the universe the game is in is stagnant. i know that it is a universe at continual war and everything but how about some serious losses or gains.
this does not mean i want hue changes to the existing armies. a player could choose which region of space his force is from. these changes would add more OPTIONS with some restrictions. some areas would have more technology but less man power, some areas might have better access to feral troops. you could even introduce eras. pre heresy era, pre eye of terror era, tyranid invasion era forces etc. each eras forces come with special rules or traits.
this is stuff i can come up with off the top of my head. i know that you guys will be able to come up with all sorts of serious flaws but these are just starting ideas. i am sure that if the developers asked their customers to throw some ideas in the ring,/ then they could do something with these ideas. the universe has been the same for about a decade. will it be the same in 10 or 20 years
thoughts?

It is possible to progress a story and have it not ruin or undermine the game, but it's a real balancing act. Fasa breathed a lot of interesting life into (not yet) Classic Battletech with the clans, but things went downhill from there fast with all kinds of wacky technologies, shifting alliances, etc.

There's always been talk about GW massively shifting the fluff (Ultramarines succeed, Blood Angels go Chaos, etc.), but there's clearly been a decision to keep things 'status quo'. The way they allow for flexibility is for 'historical' armies (i.e. Eldrad fights Nork even though they're both dead) and that silly, silly Warp, which results in armies showing up 1000 years too late/early, etc.

Frankly, that was always one of the things I liked about 40k, was that you could have some wacky timeslip resulting in Imperial Guardsmen fighting alongside Traitor Dark Angels for the Emperor etc.

If GW really wanted to shake up 40k, then a complete reboot--rules and fluff--would be in order. Something like what White Wolf did with the World of Darkness.

Posted By syr8766 on 08/10/2007 1:07 PM
There's always been talk about GW massively shifting the fluff (Ultramarines succeed, Blood Angels go Chaos, etc.),

 

I know what you meen about the BA but i dont understand what you meen by the ultramarines succeed?

Not really...

If the primarchs are reborn and the starchild emporer shows himself the imperium would get a big boost. And if the tyranid main fleet showed up they would get a big boost.
And if the void dragon returned the necrons would get a big boost.
And if the greater orc fringe united (possibly stirred by the imperiums sudden strength or the tyranid presence) they would get a huge boost.
And if the tau rallied the lesser alien races (for the same reasons as the orks) they would get a big boost.
And if the chaos primarchs actually DID SOMETHING chaos would get a big boost.

ETC

The game doesn't have to end with the primarchs coming back. You just get to ramp the conflicts up a bit.

Posted By ShumaGorath on 08/13/2007 1:10 PM
If the primarchs are reborn and the starchild emporer shows himself the imperium would get a big boost.

That would absolutely ruin the 40K universe.  It's like having a game set during the Crusades with knights and archers and whatnot, and then all of a sudden *BAM* The Second Coming of Christ!  Jesus Christ is crowned Supreme Emperor of Jesusland (includes all of Europe)!  AWESOME!  Now your crusader armies can be led by archangels and all your crusaders get superpowers!!  SWEET!!!  Isn't this great?  Before you know it you're up to your eyeballs in angels and demons and horsemen of the apocalypse!  And you stop and wonder, "Hey, wait a minute.  What happened to the Crusades?"  But by then it's too late.

The problem is not the about failing to advance the plot.  There's plenty of opportunity in the current setting for exploring new plotlines without moving the timeline forward.  There are genestealer cults, harlequins, exodites, hrud, demiurg, and all manner of other aliens whose societies and histories could be explored.  But since GW's business model is based on constantly redoing the same 14-16 armies they end up going over the same plotlines over and over and over again without exploring anything new.

Posted By syr8766 on 08/10/2007 1:07 PM
It is possible to progress a story and have it not ruin or undermine the game, but it's a real balancing act.

"Balancing acts" are really not GW's forte.  They need to leave well enough alone.

beef, I'm guessing he means "secede".

Posted By Vult on 12/05/2006 2:48 PM
The simple truth is GW eludes to a great scheme of things in so many places but never does anything with it.  I think this hurts their storyline (which I said before that I really do love) and also the game.  I read as many of the novels as I can and try to read every codex that comes out cover to cover.  I dont really care if they change the game play (though that would rock) but atleast update the fluff.  Process the universe into a living breathing moving entity.....not just a sleeping god in a coma!

I think it's great that you love 40K fluff, but it's obvious that you don't understand what it is or what it's intent is.

The GW design team wrote an article in U.S. WD 302 explaining this very thing.  Here's an exerpt if you don't have it:

 

The purpose of campaigns, and, in particular, the round-ups and conclusions, are not to provide an ending but a beginning. Some people want to know what is going to happen with all of these developments.
We're never going to tell you.
The Background exists as a context for the games that people play. Despite the occasional event, the background was never intended as an ongoing narrative that would be constantly updated. The back story presents questions, enigmas, problems, and conflicts. Gamers explore and solve these issues by playing games and developing armies. In short, the background provides the beginning, but the players provide the end.
What is Cypher up to? Well, he's up to whatever you need him to be up to for your games and campaigns. What does the cult mechanicus have to do with the dragon? Whatever you want that relationship to be.
The background should be like Schrodinger's Cat-Nothing is defined until the players look into the box by playing games and determining the outcome for themselves. Backgrounds should be full of possibilities to be exploited and expanded by players, not answers that limit the potential of the game and its setting.<!--QuoteEnd-->

I totally agree with there being a necessity for the ending to be left up to the players- If there isnt any unresolved conflict, unanswered questions etc then what's the point in playing? If the narrative was dictated and progressed by GW then we the players would hardly be of significance because the outcome of our personal games would be meaningless.

 

HOWEVER> That doesnt mean that there can be a few new things thrown in from time to time. Just because the 40k universe is what it is now doesnt mean that it has to stay like that forever. Some of the questions and conflicts could be (semi)resolved in the process of bringing in fresh ones.

It would be spinning plot wheels within the great machine of 40k fluff but overall leaving it in a state of 'unresolved' so that players can continue to have their own narratives.

 

I think the best way to do that would be to have 'plot advancement' with each subsequent codex. Instead of a new codex being a change of the rules with the same old story, new codexes could really highlight a change from the last one in terms of narrative as well as rules- just to show some respect to the fact that players have been using the army and the same narrative for a long time.

It doesnt have tobe dramatic either, and could be lead by battle reports, mini book series etc.

 

For example (I'm a big fan of) The Blood Angels.

If it were up to me, when the new codex is released (Years from now sadly) I would have a whle string of battle reports and story exerpts catalogued in White Dwarf in which the chapter is decided to be out of control by the ordo heriticus, who accuse them of blasphemy and try to wipe them out. Baal is destroyed and the Blood Angels become techincally 'renegade', whilst still remaining 'pure' to the emperor and believing themselves to be fighting for the Imperium. It would be an interesting set-up, where both sides believe themselves to be doing the 'right-thing'. Anyway, the Blood Angels would become more and more fanatical, more hell-bent on purity and honor, and the Battle Reports in White Dwarf could be a set-up for releasing new models.

Ultimately the Blood Angels go straight into an Ork Empire trying to regain their honor or die pure, and in the final battle, a great Ork Warlord practically kills Commander Dante, though the battle is won, and Dante is entombed in a Dreadnaught with his chapter's loyalty to the emperor now re-assured. Then a release for an Awesome Dante Dreadnaught model and the codex Blood Angels and there's a totally new bit of fluff and perspective on a chapter that was otherwise forgotten *Growls something incoherent about the glory of sanguinius*.

It would be a 'backwards' release of a new codex and models.... and think how totally friggin awesome a Dante Dreadnaught model would be like.

It would bring in a whole load of new fluff- The Blood Angels having tension with the Inquisition and thought of as heretics by many loyalist chapters whilst actually believing themselves to be pure- Dante being in a dreadnaught and having new rules and a different presence on the battlefield- The Orks having some new fluff involving a warlord and army in the middle of the Imperium etc. But overall the capacity for players creating their own stories and endings isnt at all changed.

 

The point of this post is, the fluff in 40k can be revamped and progressed without actually affecting the overall capacity for fresh ideas. Like someone said, this is Sci-Fi, and Sci-Fi has no limits exept imagination.

I have to put myself in the Yakface camp - again...

The main problem with "advancing" universes is that things can fall out of whack seriously quickly. Let's say they decided to do another Damocles Gulf campaign. Not surprisingly - the Tau would probably get their butts kicked, considering how much aggro they seem to have generated.

Now what does GW do? One faction is weakened, another has strengthened. What are the Tau players going to think? "Gee, I have to buy a new codex where I lose the Vespids because the planet got Exeterminatussed by the Imperials." How are GW going to justify that the Imperium just doesn't make one last lunge to wipe out the Tau altogether?

Have that happen once or twice, and suddenly - the universe starts getting tougher to work with.

I've seen multiple games with metaplots. I've also seen many games with metaplots have to "reboot" because thinkgs got too broken. Battletech is a great example. They had a wonderful "stasis" before the 4th Succession war. Five houses of relatively equal power. Hundredsd of worlds, and where a handful of mechs were considered important. Practically ANY scale game felt "important" - due to the rarity of mechs. Then came the Steiner-Davion wedding and the Fourth Succession War. Once that happened though, FASA was pretty much forced to keep advancing the plotline. This led to change after change; the Clans, Operation Bulldog, the Fedcom Civil War, the Jihad. Many players STILL think that the 3024 (pre 4th Succession War) timeframe was still a "better" playground - because the vaguely "dark Ages" feel let them tell stories that were unique. Mechs were heirlooms, not throwaway toys. A battle where a company of mechs was involved was a big thing - yet it wasn't. A single planet changing possession here or there meant nothing on the scale of the universe - but everything to an individual story.

Once mechs became "equipment" - the Battletech universe lost something. Shadowrun, Megatraveler, World of Darkness... Most of those universe have had to reboot the universe to keep it interesting.

You appear to want 40k to be a universe where massive events happen to shake things up. You want external events by GW to keep things interesting. To me though - I want MY events to shake MY universe. I want a universe where the 17th Vior'la expeditionary cadre can build it's own battle honors and earn the nickname "Godslayers". Does it matter to the universe that they destroyed 2 Warhounds in the fighting at Gaidaszgrad? Nope. Plenty more where they came from.

Having a stagnant universe lets the players be in control of their part of their universe.

personally i would love to see GW do a campaign like medusa V then get someone to write a novel or short story about it all after, if players with the biggest games and the best fluff contacted gw im sure they could fit it in.

Pehaps some campaign about a new (but quite powerful) chapter going over to chaos...