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Yeah, the rules for Starship Troopers for example allow a unit that wants to to sit and shoot twice, or move twice.  Add in the reaction movement and it gets pretty hairy once all the units get close together, in addition, the whole "locked" in combat rule doesn't apply, unit just find themselves overwhelmed and getting ripped apart in a way that feels more brutal and realistic than the sweeping advance.

Suggestion: anti-tank weapons should find it harder to hit troops.

Min-maxing of heavy weapons would decrease as people find them less effective for penetrating MEQ armour. MEQ's then put more faith in their armour saves and don't feel quite so bad about all those AP1/2/3 weapons out there.

I have started a new 'Tankbusters' post with the germ of this idea being put into use - it's a community project, so please add to that post with your ideas.

to the guy that said every race can get lots of heavy armour:
Eh what? Orks?
Ard Boyz, Elites choice, 4+ save, 12 points a head.

Nobs, hq, potentially a 2+/5+ save, but- costs 60 points a model, no deep strike, move as if in difficult terrain, no option for additional ccw but still BS poo.

Umm, that doesn't look like much to me, but maybe I'm just fussy.
Playing Orks in 40K has become a game of "move, remove".

Indeed. Guard, too, maxes out with 4+ armor, and then only either with Stormies, or when you blow 20 points on a unit. 2 points a model isn't bad for infantry squads, but...what, 4 or 5 points a model for command squads? And...some screwey decimal for HW squads. If they can even take them.

As for the overabundance of AP 3 and 2 weapons, well, that was brought upon us by the overabundance of Marine and MeQ armies. If you go to a tourney, and half (or more!) of the armies can be mauled by AP 3 and 2 weapons, well, it only makes sense to gear up against them. Especially when one only needs a cursory AP 4 or 5 armament to deal with the remainder. Perfect case in point is my personal irritation, Space Marines. They can load up on las/plas, but still use their Bolters to slaughter anything that has a 5+ save.

Posted By Da Boss on 01/22/2007 2:35 PM
to the guy that said every race can get lots of heavy armour:
Eh what? Orks?
Ard Boyz, Elites choice, 4+ save, 12 points a head.

Nobs, hq, potentially a 2+/5+ save, but- costs 60 points a model, no deep strike, move as if in difficult terrain, no option for additional ccw but still BS poo.

Umm, that doesn't look like much to me, but maybe I'm just fussy.
Playing Orks in 40K has become a game of "move, remove".

Hello,

I said well armored and/or well protected. Gretchin, kustom forcefields and mad doks can add large amounts of survivability to your boyz. But I don't play orks, and if I did, I would look for any way to increase their survivability. Hardboyz/megaarmor are an option but that isn't what I was getting at.

Aren't hardboyz 10pts each? Maybe i'm wrong.

Hi, Same thing. You are focusing on armor. However in this case I specifically mentioned chameleoline. 4+ cover saves are all of a sudden 3+ cover saves with chameleoline. That is VERY well protected. And before you go off about some j@ck@$$ with a flamer remember that that is the only way to ignore your armies save. Cover is abundant and you only need five guys in cover to claim a save.

70-80 grunts with two dozen heavy weapons and that sort of protection and morale (leadership bubbles and iron discipline) means your army is well protected. You just have to think about it more.

Happy Hunting

 

 

Something I wanted to re-iterate in this thread: Skimmers, and more specifically Skimmer "themed" armies are flat out unfair.

Reasoning: By playing a Mechanized Skimmer Force (Tau or Eldar) you can effectively eliminate any Assault Based army as a viable threat to your entire army.

Even the fastest, most abusive assault armies (Demonbombs spring to mind) can not deal with this, let alone naturally assault based armies (Orks, Non Zilla Nids). When you have literally nothing that can be caught by assault units most of the time - it just seems wrong. No army should be able to effectively eliminate that many army TYPES as a threat.

I mean how fun is it to walk up to a table to play a game with say Orks and come up against a Mech Tau or Mech Eldar with hardly any "normal" troops and lots of skimmers or jump/jet units. You're pretty much going to get completely hosed barring a miracle of the dice while your opponent gets to go roughshod over you and the only thing you can think to do to improve your chances of winning would be to play another army type.

I came up with this idea after doing some practice games for the GT with a friend of mine who wants to take Dark Eldar to the GT's this coming season. After soundly beating the tar out of him with my unfun SAFH Marine list (to be fair, he stood a decent chance but the dice were pissed at him) we started talking and honestly there's no point in taking an assault army to the GT's since you're guaranteed to come up against Mech Tau or Mech Eldar lists and you will just simply lose, ESPECIALLY if you're an assault army that doesn't have power armor.

Great thread Voodoo.  Personally I don't have a problem with a pf/pk in every squad.  For my orks it's basically mandatory except in a Flashgitz/shoota boy mob (which are never/rarely taken...).

Morale: yeah, it's stupid the way it's setup now.  However, I think one fix that would help without a complete rewrite of the BGB is to make the max for a squad leader be 9, an HQ10 and only one squad with a wargear item could benefit from it per turn (or unless he's joined to it).  Plus ATSKNF is slowed - even if you're a super human in power armour, if your buddies just got shot to gak around you, you're possibly (gak, even at -1 for below half you'd still be rolling under an 8) going to be looking for somewhere else to be.

Skimmers: Having played orks since the dawn of 3rd I feel your pain.  Having started a mech tau force this past summer I disagree that they are stupidly broken.  Sure, last week I wiped out an IG player in 2 turns with virtually no return damage and then followed it up with a rout of an infantry heavy SM force.  BUT the week before I got routed by necrons and a Nid army.  The IG and SM player couldn't roll a hit with their multitudes of lascannons/melt/plasma, but the cron player veiled around the table glancing 6'ing me to death.   The nid player just had so much on the table that I couldn't kill enough fast enough and eventually he wore out the skimmers with the dakkafexs/warriors/ect.

Are skimmers broken against a slow moving, bad shooting army that hasn't had a codex in 9 years?  Most assuradly YES!  Mech Tau is the only army that I never had an over whelming defeat of using orks.  But are they broken vs a shooty SM/Cron/Chaos list?  Not so much.  Even with the decoy launchers, I have had people roll a 4 two times in a row - it's still dead.  I've had plenty of times where a railhead didn't fire more then once in a game (do to the stunned/shaken/weapon destroyed result). 

Personally I very much like Yakface's proposed vehicle rules.  Hell, it bothers people for vehicles to have a W/T characterisics, call them structure points (though different then Superheavies).

Armour:  I always liked WHFB armour save modifiers.  I have always hated the absoluteness of armour in 40K.  I think starting at S5 and up it should be a -1 mod to armour.  Get shot with a basic gun?  Get your save.  Get shot with a heavy bolter?  Even that is going to sratch your power armour.

Assault based armies:  KOS in 3rd ed was I'll admit probably over powered.  The death traps that ork trukks are now (unless you play on a terrain heavy board against an army that doesn't have skimmers or infilitrators that can shoot/assault them first turn - hm, no one) means that even trukkboyz in a footslogger army have to have a large element of luck on their side.  I still win with my orks in 4th edition, but then again I don't take them to tournies.  Hell, even just giving ork foot troops fleet would go a long way towards making them more survivable.

Somehow I don't see GW ever doing the majority of this though.  I hate to be a pessamist, but they haven't shown any inclination towards listening to what their supporters want.

'Ard boys are 12 per model.
Grots give a situation dependant 5+ save that costs you 3 points every time you succeed. Yes, very useful (I love my grotz) but I don't call 5+ heavy armour, or even increased survivablility considering things still die when you make your save. Especially seeing as ordinace weapons can mince the grotz and the orks behind them, and when grots break they disappear. No armour provided in close combat though.
So, I don't see 'em as a solution.

Kustom force fields= 5+ to models within 6", and doesn't give a save from ordinance/template weapons/close combat. And you can't really take that many of them, either.

Seriously, Orks are not an army that can ever be heavily armoured in the current edition. You think AV12 is bad? Try AV10. Or, AV13/12/10 open topped for 130 points.

Bah.
Things fundementally wrong in 40K:
1.Space Marines, the overproliferation of lists for.
2. Xenos armies, the lack of attention to,
3. The AP system.
4. The release environment ( one codex per large block of time, leaving some armies out in the cold for extended periods)
5.Unfinished model ranges.

Rules wise, yeah, skimmers are a *female dog*. Especially hammerheads. PKs I don't have a problem with as they cost 25 points for squad leaders rather than the under costed 15 found elsewhere.
The should put guessing back in, or up the cost of basilisks and ordinance tanks to reflect the rules change.
Rending is a dumb rule that seems hard to accurately cost for or balance.
I kninda think the whole system should be scrapped and reworked to be honest though- the current edition is no fun for me to play.

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