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False statement. You have no proof of the matter, where as I could point out the DROP in unit sales show LESS people are buying, not more. IF GW was getting more customers than losing them, they'd be moving more units.

Fact of the matter is: they are not getting the influx they need....

Posted By beef on 12/28/2006 3:02 AM

@ Mannahnin you misunderstood my point about my brother, if the person came second I would not expect him to win the Best General prize purely because he chose a slightly stronger list than a better player did? If the better player had a weaker list and did not score more games wins and thus score lower points he should not get first place. Whoever score more VP should be the winner. Irrespective of army list. that should not be a reason to detract points.

In my brothers example if he used a cheese list he would have come first but He did not and scraped 3rd place with his crap list. However with comp he would have got points for his rubbish list and if that made him come 1st that would have been wrong. the guy who came first won fair and square as cheese list are not illegal so he should not be marked down for using it.

I didn't misunderstand it at all.  You presented some data, and I drew a different conclusion from it.  If your brother is demonstrably a better player, and the prize is for the best player, than he should obviously be the winner.  If the prize is for the most total battle points achieved by anyone, regardless of list used, than your brother should not have been the winner.

But there's nothing to say that the latter is somehow BETTER or more valid than the former.  We can measure whatever we want and reward what we choose to when we run tournaments.  I choose to reward people who can do more than just win their games.  Winning games is still the most important factor by far, but if you have a more varied army, are a good sport, and paint well into the bargain, you are deserving of a bump in your scores.  If this puts you ahead of someone who was slightly above you in battle points, that's fine and fair IMO.   And since lately I'm one of the guys running tournaments in my area, my opinion counts for a lot.   So do the opinions of the people who attend my tournaments and say they like the format.

Posted By beef on 12/28/2006 3:02 AM

There are still some people who complain in the Uk.  Also in the Uk the ones who complain spend most of there time rules lawering, hanging around watching and commenting on other peoples games.  They hardly ever play as they are better at complaing then actually playing.

That's called an argument Ad Hominem.  Attacking the person doesn't make them wrong.  But it's untrue anyway.  I do read The Warhammer Forum, which is based in England, and it's clear that a lot of folks in the UK also care about comp.  You can't dismiss them all as whiners and people who hardly ever play.  Especially when they're posting battle reports, pics of nicely-painted figs, and interesting rules and army discussion. 

Posted By beef on 12/28/2006 3:02 AM

Remember GW is getting new customers alot faster than losing them.  And complaing some aspect of 40k is broken yet Still playing it just seems like the addiction is to much for some people.

That's funny, because even GW's own surveys show they have horrific customer turn-over, in the UK, where there is a larger fan base, over two years 80% of new customers leave the "GW Hobby". In the US, it's 90%, in one year. And as Carmachu succinctly points out, for the past two years, GW's sales volume (that is, units sold) has completely nose dived.

Here is a little flow chart for you since you seem to have a hard time understanding this type of stuff: Less units sold = less people buying their crap = less customers coming in than going out. For two (plus) years.

Of course, all the comp whiners have yet to realize that by bringing a definitely inferior list to a tournament, they are insulting thier opponent.

Tournaments are not the place for weak lists. Friendly games, yeah...That's fine. But in a competition, don't insult your opponent.

In the US market, its been going on since 2001.....(with a small exception in 2004).

GW's own figures cant lie.....especially to stockholders.

Posted By skyth on 12/28/2006 6:19 AM
Of course, all the comp whiners have yet to realize that by bringing a definitely inferior list to a tournament, they are insulting thier opponent.

Tournaments are not the place for weak lists. Friendly games, yeah...That's fine. But in a competition, don't insult your opponent.

And by bringing 4 HS 9 Oblit IW to a tournament, you are boring all your opponents.  Oh no!  What are we to do?!  No matter what we do, we're being bad opponents! 

No wait, actually, that's a BS false dichotomy.  There are more choices than that. 

No one is defending bringing "weak" lists to a tournament.  Olinairi and I have both made clear that we expect people to bring strong lists.  But we want to see strong lists which have some variety instead of the same thing all the time, and if that variety makes them a little weaker, then they deserve a little bump via the comp scores.  Ed's tournament with bonuses for using rarer/weaker units was just another version of the same thing.  Given that it was Ed who first used the "insulting your opponent" arguement on this board, clearly his views are not as black and white as the ones you're spouting.

I'll guarantee you that any DA, Eldar, or Chaos list I would bring to a tournament would get better comp scores and get friendlier reactions from my opponents than the classic IW, Ulthwe, Drop Pods heavy hitters.  But I still expect that (barring abnormally bad luck or an exceptional opponent) I'm going to win all my games.  I bring a strong list and I play well.  I can tell you right now that none of the IW, Drop Pod, or Ulthwe players I've faced has ever felt insulted by my (fluffier) lists.  They've been too busy playing and hoping they can win.  

So if your that good why have comp? Like I said Comp is for losers to make them feel better at being crap. You can have a fluffy/crap list and still win if you are good enough. But if your not good enough then dont bother dock points off your opponent for having a competitive list. As for the Iw lists, everybody knows what they are capable off and now most "smart" players know how to beet them

when I first faced one a toirnie with my SW back in 3rd I was dead by turn 2. It was a disapointing result but I would not begrudge my opponent for wiping the floor with me. However now I have beaten the same list time and time again as I am more exoperienced now and know what the IW army is capable off,

...

I eagerly await the continuation of Beef's sentence.

Or perhaps not.

Candy?

Posted By beef on 12/28/2006 11:29 PM
It was a disapointing result but I would not begrudge my opponent for wiping the floor with me. However now I have beaten the same list time and time again as I am more exoperienced now and know what the IW army is capable off,

I was going to fix your typo...but how? HOW?

Gawd, I freakin' love candy...

it should have been a Fullstop not a coma. Basically I can now beet that IW list as I know what it does well and what it does not do so well etc. I learnt from my defeats. Thats what people should be doing. Learn and then win, unless they are so rubbish they cant in which case dont worry about it, just play for the fun of losing. Or get down to the Uk and I will get someone to teach you.

Posted By beef on 12/28/2006 11:29 PM
So if your that good why have comp? Like I said Comp is for losers to make them feel better at being crap.

I think you're wrong.  You're presumably willing to take my word that I'm not a loser, so you have to figure out a way to reconcile the contradiction somehow.

I’ve probably written a couple of thousand words on the subject in these threads this week.  I’ve explained it to you a couple of times.  Why should I explain it again if you have not demonstrated any comprehension of the previous iterations?

Yeah I will have to take your word for evrything here as its the internet. evrything has to be taken with a pinch of salt. Unless I know you personally or have played you there is no way for me to verify what you say in regards to you being good. there is a difference between great players and good players as I am sure anybody who plays thinks they are good.

Also I am not sure that last post was actually directed at you.

Posted By malfred on 12/29/2006 7:22 AM

Posted By beef on 12/28/2006 11:29 PM
It was a disapointing result but I would not begrudge my opponent for wiping the floor with me. However now I have beaten the same list time and time again as I am more exoperienced now and know what the IW army is capable off,

I was going to fix your typo...but how? HOW?

Posted By beef on 12/28/2006 11:29 PM
It was a disapointing result but I would not begrudge my opponent for wiping the floor with me. However now I have beaten off to the same list time and time again as I am more exoperienced now,

There I fixed it.

That must be some list!

...forums ate my post...

(more likely my crappy workplace internet connection)

Posted By beef on 12/28/2006 11:29 PM
It was a disapointing result but I would not begrudge my opponent for wiping the floor with me. However now I have beaten off to Abadabadoobaddon time and time again as I am more experienced now,

Posted By beef on 12/29/2006 12:31 PM
 there is a difference between great players and good players as I am sure anybody who plays thinks they are good.

*coughcough*

No, they don't.

There's a reason some of us pore over forums instead of actually getting games in...

I do it for the chicks...


....

....What?

Aw Malf, don't be so hard on yourself.  Practice makes perfect!

 

Just make sure you play like you have a pair!

I just enjoy licking computer monitors.

Posted By Hordini on 12/29/2006 8:05 PM

Aw Malf, don't be so hard on yourself.  Practice makes perfect!

 

Just make sure you play like you have a pair!

Are you somehow implying that our friendly neighborhood Felix is sans testes, Hordini?

Unless you can verify otherwise?

If anyone knows it Hordini. I remember this one time way back in the day when they used to run off together to play. That was when the game was new. We caught them out back behind the wood shed and I tell ya, that was some spectacle! Anthow, let's just say that since that time malfred's been different and Hordini, well it's not polite to go into details in such a public place.

No pls feel free to go into detail. Where better to do so than Dakka?

yes there is, its balanced if your opponent and most dakka contributers think it is. lol