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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Silverdale, WA

In my lists the chaplain's mandatory, but I could see doing it without him. I think the real fix for BA is to remove the ability for scouts to join the DC. It's not fluffy and it only encourages the 'stupid all cheap marines hope for monster DC' armies. It makes people mad and it leads to discussions like this where people think DC marines are free and overpowered. With a mixture of traits you can make a much more overpowered assaulty force and actually be able to attach or unattach two seperate cheaper chaplains to assault squads while still maintaining the effective long range options that aren't threatened by BA special rules.

Remember with the DC you get the good: Really cheap jump pack marine with FNP, and the bad: zero point that not only gives no VP's to opponent but also awards you none in certain missions. The best thing is the one that everyone forgets. If you're like me and you want to go for the sure thing with actually paying for assault and vet assault marines you have now lessened the surviveability of the squad before the game starts for a minor upgrade with FNP. FNP would be a great upgrade except that now that squad member is part of a new squad with a totally different tactic imposed on it. The origional squad now has to carry on hopefully at least at half of the strength it was when it started (I have lost squads down to a man).

Don't get me wrong. I'm not complaining. I think they're fine the way they are. I just don't think they're overpowered. They CAN be overpowered with a tailored list but so can ANY army. I'll make a deal with anyone. I'll take away the DC as long as my chaplains get a price cut and are able to take lead the Honour Guard. It also seems right that we should be able to mix commanders in the same command squad right?

 
   
Made in us
Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine





Puget sound region, WA

Posted By Glaive Company CO on 02/16/2007 2:53 PM
I think the real fix for BA is to remove the ability for scouts to join the DC. It's not fluffy and it only encourages the 'stupid all cheap marines hope for monster DC' armies.
Uhhh... not fluffy? Sooo those with the least experience in holding back the Black Rage should be immune to it?  Glad to hear Black Rage only kicks in after puberty.  No more crazy talk from you.

 
   
Made in us
Unbalanced Fanatic





Minneapolis, MN

The Blood Angels list has gained a reputation as an abusable list because of the Death Company, plain and simple.  The "lots of infantry/big Death Company" list is fluffy IMHO, but it isn't balanced in terms of gameplay.  It would be foolish not to go infantry heavy with Blood Angels.  The best BA lists I've seen use the chaplain, 6 man las/plas squads, scouts , devastators, and maybe small squads of assault marines.  Naturally, all the squads have a vet sarge.  These squads create a massive Death Company with 4-5 power fists, backed up by a pretty intense amount of shooting power.   The huge Death Company can absorb a ton of firepower, and the rest of the BA army can move where it wishes and shoot to its heart's content.  The loss of a few vet sarges or bolter troopers plus a 1 in 6 chance of not being able to shoot doesn't negatively affect a marine gunline that much.

Saying that it is the player's responsibility not to build an uber army is unrealistic.  Warhammer 40k is all about building the best army you can.  If it is possible to turn a 13pt scout into a Death Company jump trooper easily worth two to three times that amount it should be done.  The DC actively discourages spending points on elite troops because no matter who they are they might still turn into a psycho.  Better to get cheap psychos by the dozen.  All that and it doesn't yield a single VP to the enemy unless the Chaplain is killed.  The lack of VP scoring potential is more than made up for by the amount of fire the Death Company attracts.  It isn't a unit that is possible to ignore.

All of the randomization just makes things more complicated and opens up the possibility for abuse.  The Death Company need to cost points in any revision.  If they have time to re-paint their armor and strap on a jump pack, they can be purchased like any other unit in the game.  Blood Angels have a ton of character and the black rage could be implemented as a shooting (maybe like bladestorm for bolters?) or a close combat effect (feel no pain for one round?) or in some other way that doesn't waste time for no real purpose. 

The Death Company is overpowered.  If you aren't using it to its full potential, that is your choice.  I'm saying that it is a bad one.

The 21st century will have a number of great cities. You’ll choose between cities of great population density and those that are like series of islands in the forest. - Bernard Tschumi 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran



Culver City, CA

Shooty blood angel squads pay a premium. Heavy weapons are effectively 20% more ( get to shoot 5/6 as much) than regular marines. Only about 1/2 of your squads have someone go to the DC.

If you took a 6 man las/plas squad with a naked sgt it's 130 points + 20% = 156, while a normal chapter would pay 115. So effectively paying 41 points for a 50% chance of getting a DC member with a fist/p.weap.

Even if you only consider actual point values, 6 las/plas squad with naked sgts are 90 extra points, for 3 dc on average, or 30 points each. If you take assault troops, terminators or bikes they get even more expensive.



"There is no such thing as a cheesy space marine army, but any army that can beat space marines is cheesy. " -- Blackmoor

 
   
Made in us
Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine





Puget sound region, WA

Posted By Samwise158 on 02/16/2007 4:37 PM

Saying that it is the player's responsibility not to build an uber army is unrealistic. 
This statement should be plastered outside of GW's HQ.  Never a truer thing has been said.

For a long time I blamed players for bringing, "Cheezy" armies.  (Insert whever Your pet term for cheeze is).  However, the player is ONLY doing what the designer allows them to do.  To then say that the hobby should, "police" it's self is a cop out. The rules should have been better tested and balanced to begin with.

Hopefully the next codex will be put together with more balance in mind.

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Silverdale, WA

Exactly! Either join the cheese train or get off. If your army is getting it's but kicked by the Blood Angels it's probably time to start bringing your own tailored lists to the table. I don't mind self imposing rules on myself to make my force more fitting to it's own back story. I also don't begrudge the player who uses the super all scout list either. As you say, it is up to us to create our forces as we see fit. If you want to unbalance your force you should have the right to do it.

I don't even know why I'm arguing this. I guess I go back and forth on the whole balance issue. What I would hate to see most is a basic leveling of all armies. In other words, I'd hate to see diversity get thrown out the window just to force players to choose units that are so much alike balance is not even an issue anymore.

Oh, and I apologize about my fluff comment with the scouts. I'm sure my fluff on the marines is outdated to the extreme. The last thing I read about acolytes and scouts was back in the late eighties and it was how scouts always had a final test to overcome before recieving their last set of glands or whatever the heck they shove into the boys to make 'em full on acid saliva spitting no oxygen breathing mutants. I don't remember the BA one actually. The one I do remember is how a Space Wolf scout had to like trek through the snow or something for like a month with just a pelt and a knife to go kill some wolf or something. Then, if he made it back alive, he would become a full on marine and get his fangs or whatever. That's probably all gone now and scouts are just full on marines who are like lighter armored forward troops or something. No matter how far out of the loop I am I'm still not renewing my subscription to WD though!

 
   
Made in us
RogueSangre





The Cockatrice Malediction

Posted By Moopy on 02/16/2007 2:00 PM
Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 02/16/2007 2:23 AM
Posted By Moopy on 02/15/2007 11:57 PM
Not quite so. The trade off, is you MIGHT get some DC.
So I pay 15 pts and I MIGHT get a marine worth 15 pts or I MIGHT get a super-duper Black-With-RedX marine worth (by any reasonable appraisal) at least several pts more than 15 pts.  Wow, what a trade off.

SIGH... Yes, and YES you might fall foward on your regular squads making their heavy weapons uselss that turn.  You'll be playing that price even if you get NO DC that game, making long ranged fire support tricky.  Please remember all the costs.

And here I was thinking the involuntary running forwards thing was to counterbalance the free Furious Charge.  Yeah, it sure is rough when all that extra movement brings you closer to the enemy - that's certainly not something you want to happen!  I mean it's not like your guys are good in assault or anything.  I guess life is hard for Red Marines.

And it's even worse for fire support stuff!  Man, it sucks when your dev squads run forward instead of shooting!  I mean it's not like you could replace infantry-based firepower with move-and-fire heavy weapons.  I mean, what are you going to take for Heavy Support then?  A predator with assault cannons?  Get real!

   
Made in us
RogueSangre





The Cockatrice Malediction

Posted By Red__Thirst on 02/16/2007 1:58 PM
I'm assuming by Condensing, you meant condecending?
And I'm assuming by condecending, you meant condescending?

   
Made in us
Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine





Mississippi

Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 02/17/2007 12:14 AM
Posted By Red__Thirst on 02/16/2007 1:58 PM
I'm assuming by Condensing, you meant condecending?
And I'm assuming by condecending, you meant condescending?
            
Yea, that'll do.

I are not an english majer.  Me speel reel gud.



-RT-

You don't know me son, so I'll explain this to you once: If I ever kill you, you'll be awake, you'll be facing me, and you'll be armed.  
   
Made in us
Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine





Puget sound region, WA

I'll also hope they'll clarify a few things: Can the Free DC rhino purchase upgrades? Currently I think no. Do the Red thrist ignore terrain? Currently I think no.

 
   
Made in us
Unbalanced Fanatic





Minneapolis, MN

I disagree with your math Frenrik.  6 man las-plas squads still only cost 130pts, they just are about 20% less effective at their job if you want them to stand and shoot.  So in effect you are paying about 28pts for a DC power fist with slightly degraded fire support.  Also, if you use h2h scouts, then you get a unit that can infiltrate, has furious charge and sometimes gets d6 extra inches, all for 13pts a model  The point I was trying to make earlier was that having a big death company with three or four power fists is something that is way undercosted if the controlling player thinks about how to pack in those bodies.  Fire support can be degraded, or like abbadabba said, you can use predators or vehicles.  As it is elite blood angels armies are rare.  I've never seen a terminator in a Blood Angels army.  Death Company should be a scary elites choice and have their cost calculated like every unit in the game.  Otherwise people will figure out the best way to get more of them for less.

The 21st century will have a number of great cities. You’ll choose between cities of great population density and those that are like series of islands in the forest. - Bernard Tschumi 
   
Made in us
Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine





Mississippi

Ok, so we've discussed the DC, sure they should be addressed, but what else??

I mean, can we expect BA rhinos (and maybe razorbacks) to be chaper like the DA's?

What about Drop Pods? Will the sons of Sanguinius be paying premium for them like DA, or will we get a points break for them? I for one always envisioned BA using drop pods alot, as it lets them get right up-close-and-personal very quickly, but who knows.

Regarding the HQ's, what can we expect the BA librarian to have? What kind of nifty psyker powers could be given as BA specific? How about Sanguiniary High Priests? I for one hope this HQ option stays and remains a viable option. I love playing smaller games (1000 points and lower) with a SHP as my HQ.

Lastly, what about elites? Obviously terminators spring to mind first. I'm currious to see how BA handle terminators, especially assault termies. Dreadnoughts also. Are Furioso's going to remain a separate choice? Or will standard dreads be removed from the HS option they are now and returned to elite, with the furioso pattern being an optional upgrade? What about Veteran Assault Marines? How could these be made into a viable choice with the assault marine being a better option points wise?

Regarding Veteran Assault Squads, I for one think that the following should be in place for them:


Elite: Veteran Assault Squad. Type: Jump Infantry

25 points a piece, 5 man min, 10 man max.

One model in the squad can be upgraded to a veteran sergeant for15 points. He may then replace his bolt pistol with a plasma pistol for 10 points, and his chain sword with a power weapon for 10 points, or a powerfist for 15 points

Equipped with Frag Grenades, Jump Packs, Bolt Pistols, Chain Swords, Melta Bombs.

Up to two models in the squad may replace their bolt pistols for plasma pistols for +5 points, or replace the bolt pistols and chain swords for flamers for +6 points each, or Meltaguns for +10 points each.

Unit Special Rules: Furious Charge USR, Deep Strike if Mission allows it.
Veterans of a thousand campaigns, Blood Angels veteran assault marines specialize in rapid surgical strikes over a running battlefield, dropping from the sky to butcher anything in their path before vaulting skywards again searching for another victim. They are extremely adept at flying through even the roughest terrain with ease and as such have the skilled rider USR. Because of the nature of their tactics and the ammount of time they have spent practicing them, these elite marines specialize in attacking fast moving targets. As such they always strike armored targets on a 4+ regardless of how far that target has moved.

What do you guys think? Too much? Does that bring them more into line with their role? I.E.: Specialist assault marines.

That's all for now.

Take it easy.

-RT-

You don't know me son, so I'll explain this to you once: If I ever kill you, you'll be awake, you'll be facing me, and you'll be armed.  
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Troll country

I would like to see Furisos to be able to be taken with the venerable upgrade for starters. I run terminators in my BA 24-7 and they have always done great things for me.

- Greenie

- I am the troll... feed me!

- 5th place w. 13th Company at Adepticon 2007 Championship Tourney

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Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon






"I mean, can we expect BA rhinos (and maybe razorbacks) to be chaper like the DA's?"

As I mentioned above, I'd rather see them made useful rather than just cheaper.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Troll country

I would also like to see a veteran skill for units such as DC and HG that allows them to assault from moving transports.

- Greenie

- I am the troll... feed me!

- 5th place w. 13th Company at Adepticon 2007 Championship Tourney

- I love Angela Imrie!!!

http://40kwreckingcrew.com/phpBB2/index.php

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Troll country

BA have access to special scout squads that are solely intended for close combat and are a troop choice. These guys are not like those pansy DA scouts that try their best to avoid any combat. So tell the whole story next time pls.

- Greenie

- I am the troll... feed me!

- 5th place w. 13th Company at Adepticon 2007 Championship Tourney

- I love Angela Imrie!!!

http://40kwreckingcrew.com/phpBB2/index.php

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Made in us
Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine





Mississippi

Um...Greenie.

I'm not sure how to put this, but Blood Angels scout squads aren't particularly 'special' IMO. They're just like normal scouts, but more limited in what options they can take.

No heavy weapon option, and no sniper rifle option for the squad either. They're built for close combat, and combined with Furious Charge USR, are very very good at it if they can get the charge off. Trust me, I run an 8 man squad of them as an infiltration unit regularly. However two things generally happen to them. One: They get an early charge off and inflict some damage, then die to massed fire. Or Two: they get blown away by massed firepower which their 4+ scout armor can't handle before they can do much of anything. This is pretty much the way things have worked ever since I started playing them.

BA scouts are a good option in my opinion, but they should not supplant tactical squads as the primary troops choice. It limits the army list too much, considering the more powerful close combat builds out there, especially the popular tyranid lists, which possess close combat elements that are very very good at killing marines before they even swing, despite furious charge.

My point is BA scouts are a great option, and should be utilized to some extent IMO in most BA lists if they can be. However to field nothing but scout squads would be a risky venture, and one I wouldn't want to try personally.

That's all I've got. Take it easy everyone

-RT-

You don't know me son, so I'll explain this to you once: If I ever kill you, you'll be awake, you'll be facing me, and you'll be armed.  
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Troll country

Sure they are not really that special, but seeing they are geared specifically for close combat I think that tells you something about the chapter as a whole. That was my actual point.

- Greenie

- I am the troll... feed me!

- 5th place w. 13th Company at Adepticon 2007 Championship Tourney

- I love Angela Imrie!!!

http://40kwreckingcrew.com/phpBB2/index.php

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Agile Revenant Titan




Florida

I agree thanks to the wonderfully written mini dex for 3rd edition.

No earth shattering, thought provoking quote. I'm just someone who was introduced to 40K in the late 80's and it's become a lifelong hobby. 
   
Made in us
Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine





Mississippi

Posted By Sarigar on 02/20/2007 5:36 AM
I agree thanks to the wonderfully written mini dex for 3rd edition.
Do I detect a shade of sarcasm there Sarigar?

The BA mini codex wasn't perfect but I thought it was well done for its time.  Abusable because of rhino rush, but overall not terrible once 4th edition arrived.  (IMO)

Still, I'm interested to see where BA go in 4th edition.  After seeing the changes to DA, anything could happen.

Still, I'm optimistic.  Hopefully we'll start getting more info before the year is out.

Thats all for now, take it easy everyone.

-RT-

You don't know me son, so I'll explain this to you once: If I ever kill you, you'll be awake, you'll be facing me, and you'll be armed.  
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Troll country

Space Wolves are up next so it will still be awhile. Hopefully you can manage until then with the mini-codex. I know it probably troubles you and my advice is keep a stiff upper lip.

- Greenie

- I am the troll... feed me!

- 5th place w. 13th Company at Adepticon 2007 Championship Tourney

- I love Angela Imrie!!!

http://40kwreckingcrew.com/phpBB2/index.php

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Made in us
Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine





Mississippi

Posted By Green Bloater on 02/20/2007 1:43 PM
Space Wolves are up next so it will still be awhile. Hopefully you can manage until then with the mini-codex. I know it probably troubles you and my advice is keep a stiff upper lip.

- Greenie

Greenie, I'm not sure if you're just daft, or somehow manage to read into things completely incorrectly...but it's starting to get old.

Nothing i have said has been negative, or in any way a complaint about the BA 'dex, the rules regarding BA, or anything else. 

I've played Blood Angels for over SEVEN years.  I own and have read the vast majority of the fluff and history written about the Blood Angels as well. 

I've "managed" with the BA Mini-codex for years, and will continue to "manage" with it until the BA get their own updated codex for 4th edition.  As for keeping a stiff upper lip, I see no need to.  The BA have more going for them than DA and SW combined under the current mini-dex system. 

Black Templars were the most in need of a rules revision in my eyes, and thankfully GW thought so too, giving them the first rules update. 

DA were not far behind them either, which is why I'm glad to see that they are the second 'chapter of legend' to be given a rules update.

After DA, Space wolves need a hand bringing the list into 4th edition and working the kinks out of it.  I have a good friend who plays space wolves and am well aware of the limitations in the list under the current edition.  Space Wolves are not quite as bad off as DA were prior to the new DA codex, but they're not but a few steps behind either IMO

Blood Angels have the most solid rules set (IMO) under 4th edition considering they were carried over from 3rd ed.  Sure they're not perfect, but compared to SW, DA, and BT, the BA came away the least 'damaged' by the 4th edition rules changes and can still make a very effective and unique list.  (I should note that effective does not mean minimal troops choices consisting of tactical and scout squads w/ naked veterans rolling for a giant DC by the way.)

Thats all I have to add.  Please refrain from further assumptions about my posts Greenie.  Thank you.

-RT-

You don't know me son, so I'll explain this to you once: If I ever kill you, you'll be awake, you'll be facing me, and you'll be armed.  
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




NJ

Perhaps his advice was for Sarigar...
   
Made in us
Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine





Mississippi

Posted By Flagg07 on 02/21/2007 7:07 AM
Perhaps his advice was for Sarigar...


Well his post immediately followed mine, and he did not quote Sarigar in it, nor did he mention that he was speaking to anyone directly.

So, in hind-sight, I do see how his advice might have been leveled at Sarigar.  However as I saw it, the advice seemed to be directed at me.

Just calling them as I see them.

Take it easy.

-RT-   


You don't know me son, so I'll explain this to you once: If I ever kill you, you'll be awake, you'll be facing me, and you'll be armed.  
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Troll country

Stop being so paranoid.

- Greenie

- I am the troll... feed me!

- 5th place w. 13th Company at Adepticon 2007 Championship Tourney

- I love Angela Imrie!!!

http://40kwreckingcrew.com/phpBB2/index.php

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Dakka Veteran




Troll country

SW are probably the most powerful they have ever been now with the advent of 4th edition rules for drop pods. No other Space Marine army is better suited for drop pods in fact, except possibly Black Templars.

- Greenie

- I am the troll... feed me!

- 5th place w. 13th Company at Adepticon 2007 Championship Tourney

- I love Angela Imrie!!!

http://40kwreckingcrew.com/phpBB2/index.php

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Made in us
Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine





Mississippi

Heh..paranoid...

Read the SW codex and tell me that SW do drop pods well. They're not nearly as effective as a vanilla chapter is at using drop pods because IF they do decide to drop pod, they have to drop everything via drop pods. That means no tanks.

Just thought I'd point that out.

-RT-

You don't know me son, so I'll explain this to you once: If I ever kill you, you'll be awake, you'll be facing me, and you'll be armed.  
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

They have the option of true grit at a cheap price with multiple special weapons and counterattack. In essence they can drop similar levels of AC goodness with speeders/termies/dreads+ have some of the best cheap CC troops available. Add Bjorn for that first turn choice and you have a list good enough for government work.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
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Troll country

Actually I believe Space Wolves as is are still quite viable and the best way to go is with drop pods. As you are probably aware Grey Hunters have a great selection to
choose from when it comes to short ranged firepower such as plasmagun/meltagun and two plasma pistols per pack. You can also kit each pack with a couple of powergloves so they are sure to make a solid smack when assaulting. Bolters work very well for Grey Hunters as well due to their benefitting from True Grit. Blood Claw bikers are a great unit in 4th edition and wolf scouts still pack a mean punch. To me SW are more powerful now than before if you use drop pods since you can deliver your short ranged shooty/assaulty units right where you want them to be.

In my opinion tanks on treads are not a good choice under the current 4th edition ruleset and I see them more as a liability than anything else. Drop pods on the other hand allow you to deliver your troops on time and right where you want them.

- Greenie

- I am the troll... feed me!

- 5th place w. 13th Company at Adepticon 2007 Championship Tourney

- I love Angela Imrie!!!

http://40kwreckingcrew.com/phpBB2/index.php

97% 
   
Made in us
Agile Revenant Titan




Florida

I would agree. Space Wolf Drop Pod armies are just plain nasty. The amount of Plasma, Powerfists, Counterassault and Never Outnumbered is just brutal. And that's just the infantry.

Not taking tanks in a Space Wolf DP army is really a non issue.

My post before, yes it was sarcasm. But, to be fair, I didn't like much of anything in 3rd edition. I thought a lot of the codexes were rush jobs and full of holes you could drive a truck through. With the exception of a few minor quibbles in the 4th ed Space Marine codex, I think they've done a much better job at codex writing across the board, even with the nerf bat being swung.

No earth shattering, thought provoking quote. I'm just someone who was introduced to 40K in the late 80's and it's become a lifelong hobby. 
   
 
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