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Oh, sorry, that wasn't aimed at you.
Yeah that makes sense.
A friend suggested giving all orks 2 wounds.

All these ideas are really nice, but it doesn't change the core problem with the Boyz.

If you're army is based around really good assault troops that only move 6" a turn, then you're doomed in 40k as it's played right now since most armies can move and fire weapons over 12", and only an idiot will move near any kind of assault range you have, denying you assault.

So we either need a lot of shooting increase (BS2 makes what options we have mediocre at best), or some way to get into combat more reliably. If we can't get into combat quickly, we lose, it's not hard to kill 100+ T4 models even with 5+ cover saves.

Posted By Dragonmann on 04/03/2007 8:30 AM
I certainly didn't intend to imply unmixed clans.  Simply that a Goff war boss would have access to Goff Skar Boyz as troops instead of elites, meaning they would probably have more, and so on.  Maybe a loota boss (forgot which clan) would allow you to take lootas as whatever organization type they stole their gear from.   

Exactly. Clans could be an emphasis.  Choose a certain clan and get you get more of something vs. less of something else.  Like a simplified chaos codex or IG doctrines.

Horde: get 3 snakebite specialties for example, but can mix and match (think black legion).

Snakebite clan. snakebite specialities throughout list. Get up to 3 non-snakebite units.

Iron Waugh: get four heavy support ordnance throwers

Posted By Redbeard on 04/03/2007 6:44 AM
2) Make the warboss T5. And let him always have the option to ride a bike like the KoS one.

Or be able to purchase a jump pack from the Armoury. I'd like to field an all-Stormboyz army, GW, are you listening?

That would be sick.
And sooooooo cool.

Speed is key for assault units, especially ones who DON'T have a 3+ save. And with transport rules getting run over by the Nerf Truck, KoS don't cut it no more.

Previous rumors had it that new Bike models were coming out and new rules were coming for them as well, my guess is that they're going to get a hell of a rules boost.

There're already way too hard in my opinion, they need toning down to normal shootas and cheapening.
I'd like to see boar/squig riders though, that'd be handy. And a tellyporta. Gotta have a tellyporta.
Oh, and a bubble chucka.

Posted By Da Boss on 04/04/2007 5:26 AM
There're already way too hard in my opinion, they need toning down to normal shootas and cheapening.
I'd like to see boar/squig riders though, that'd be handy. And a tellyporta. Gotta have a tellyporta.
Oh, and a bubble chucka.

I'm sorry, did you just try and tell me that Ork Bikes are already way too hard?

For two points less than a Marine biker and we get a 5+ cover save, BS2, S3, no choppa, and OK a TL big shoota, instead of a TL Bolter. 
They get the magic 3+ save, which is quickly becoming the only save worth a damn in the game.

I'm sorry but no, unless the bikes are well under 20 points for those armaments, then it ain't worth taking over trukks in a codex or KoS list.   30 or even 20 points for an Ork that dies about as easily as a normal Ork behind a KFF or a Grot? I don't think so.

We also get the benifit of fearless and psycho blastas, and another 5+ save for those behind.

Hmmm.I find them to be hideously effective in a footslogger army if used in 10 strong mobs. That said, against mass pie plate lists they are expensive splatter-fodder. T5 doesn't help in these situations.
But I've taken down carnifexes, grey knights, predators and tactical squads with the combination of 30 shots and then 30 more shots on the charge.
Genestealers run in fear from them.
But I haven't played against some of the worse power builds with them.
They are expensive, but I'd like to see them toned down to a more reasonable level of hardness and costing maybe 18 points instead.
Maybe I've just been lucky, or my opponents weren't prepared for the screaming tide of death that is 10 warbikes.

Posted By Da Boss on 04/04/2007 5:51 AM
We also get the benifit of fearless and psycho blastas, and another 5+ save for those behind.

Hmmm.I find them to be hideously effective in a footslogger army if used in 10 strong mobs. That said, against mass pie plate lists they are expensive splatter-fodder. T5 doesn't help in these situations.
But I've taken down carnifexes, grey knights, predators and tactical squads with the combination of 30 shots and then 30 more shots on the charge.
Genestealers run in fear from them.
But I haven't played against some of the worse power builds with them.
They are expensive, but I'd like to see them toned down to a more reasonable level of hardness and costing maybe 18 points instead.
Maybe I've just been lucky, or my opponents weren't prepared for the screaming tide of death that is 10 warbikes.

I'm sorry, but I'm rather astounded at your statements, to put it mildly.  You've killed Carnifex's with them?  I find this astounding, doubly astounding since you managed to get 10 Bikers with  big shootas, 300 Points minimum, within charge range of a Carnifex and managed to shoot & charge it, unmolested. 

Bikes are exceptionally fragile, especially for their points compared to other Bikes in the game.  I'd rather have T4 bikes with a 3+ save than what we have now, and Eldar pay less for their Guardian bikers than we do, and are better choices.   Considering I can get a Khorne Chaos Biker for 40 points a model instead of 30 with a Twin Linked Bolter, WS4, BS4, S4, T5(4), and as many attacks as an Ork, WITH a choppa, AND the magical 3+ save, shows you just how weak and fragile Bikers are for the points.  One round of dedicated shooting from a few landspeeders and tactical squads and those bikes are going to go bye bye, and that's 300 points in one unit.  

I don't think you play against the same kind of armies that most people here do with your Orks if you can say that Ork bikers are too hard as they are now.  No offense, but that notion is preposterous.

I've been thinking. GW's pendulum is on a nerfing trend currently. Do you even want a new Codex in the current climate?

Given that you'll likely be stuck with it for the next decade, it might make sense to be willing to wait a year or two when the pendulum goes in the other direction and get a competitive list rather than have it come out now and have Orks cost 15 points each since "an army with T4 and Choppas ultimately has a lot going for it."

They've been nerfing stuff, but they've also been doing a fair bit of buffing too. Look at the Eldar. Guardian Jetbikes for that cheap? Harlies? Falcons with Stones? Dude the Dark Angels were an attempt to reign in Marines and probably the hundreds of Death Wing armies they probably saw that were nothing but Assault Cannons.

Honestly, I'm at a very sad point with the Orks. I have a TON of them, they were my first army evar. They're painted up, heck my avitar is my first Warboss and I love how he came out as he was the first model I ever really put some hard work into painting well (and it isnt' even that good, but it makes me happy to look at the model).

But the damn army sucks so bad and is so against my playstyle that I cant' stand it. I don't like armies that suck or that are easy to have the game dictated by your opponent. I loathe playing with their current rules almost enough to want to sell them so I can use the cash to guilt-free buy another army that can actually compete, like Tau or Necrons.

If GW puts out a Dex for them that isn't halfway as competitive as Eldar, Tau, or Nids, then I may well sell the damn army, which'd be a real shame.

Hmmm.
Yeah, I must be playing against a different type of player. I'm primarily a "play for the laugh" club gamer- don't go in for tourneys much, not that I think they're bad, I just don't have a car.
I got a turn 3 victory against a 'nid player with those bikes. And they've been making mincemeat of imperials of all stripes for a long time. Only my opponents going pie plate heavy is threatening their effectiveness. But I'll bow to your knowledge- I haven't fought the real power builds as you point out.
But I generally don't let anyone get a round of dedicated shooting against them, hugging cover being careful. Only the ridiculous new "guess" rules for basilisks and the like have hamstrung me.
The bikes in that battle first killed a unit of stealers lead by a broodlord and then proceeded to slam into a carnifex.(Which didn't have the toughness increase).

I'd prefer them to be weaker, and a lot cheaper myself. I feel your pain by the way, I've been playing orks since the start of 3rd edition, and I loved them in second. Back in the day we weren't too badly screwed, but these days, Nids are kinda like "Anything you can do, I can do better" kinda race.

As for nerfing? Nah. It'd be damned impossible for them to nerf us. Nerfing implies that we were overpowered to begin with. I don't feel that dark angels were nerfed, thought their focus was certainly shifted a lot. Eldar seem stronger in many ways than before. And tau? Jeez don't get me started.