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Well the issue with Necrotechs to me seems to be that they're one wound models.

A stormsmith and halfjacks are steps away from stopping them. But I guess
a Scrap thrall "unit" isn't much of an investment and a pretty nice deterrent for
too many Cygnaran shenanigans.

Welcome, George!

True enough, fortunately both are excellent targets for a Pistol wraith or a cheap arc noded spell. I suppose it'll come down to who's quicker on the draw on the day.

Thanks Malfred.

George:  A few comments:

Necrotechs have slow speed / defense, and are mounted on medium bases, making them hard to protect.  Darius can easily kill them with Eyriss, GMCA or with his steam lobber.

Knockdown / Slams are IMO almost useless against Darius as he can either use Fortify to negate your knockdown / movement, or eat the knockdown and crane them all back up the next turn.

Bane Knights may not be the panacea you describe, as Darius as he can "prime" his halfjacks to block your charge lanes.  Deaths from these sources don't cause shadow shifts.

You're spot on about the pistol wraiths though - those guys are rarely not useful.

Keezus: Yeah, I see what you mean, now. Playing against the same list repeatedly can get old. The Piper is also fun with Menoth when he speeds up units. TFG can threaten from surprisingly far that way. With POM and shield wall, they are some pretty tough campers!

As to the Cryx comments- the tech is pretty squishy. But he is also a low priority target. Spells can keep around if you need him. Occultation, Death Rage, even Ghost Walk (hide behind terrain).

Machine Wraiths are so-so. Fairly expensive and unreliable. On the plus side, they eat focus to drive out, which Darius doesn't have alot to spare.

Bane Knights with Tartarus are pretty rough on anybody. Primed mines aren't usually going to slow this down mouch thanks to Reach (Ghostly and 12 inch threat is hard to avoid). Besides, if he is setting mines, he isn't patching, which is a good thing. Of course with Menoth, you should have enough AOE options to thin out Haljacks and Eiryss pretty well.

KD is limited against Darius. But, if you slam models away, their limited movement can make things tough. It also can set up the kill. For example, slam Darius into Eiryss's/Gorman's range.( My favorite is to slam Darius forward or sideways with a lurking bonejack, then unleash with the Black Oil/Parasite/Withering. ARM 13 doesn't hold up to well to the ensuing boosted Nightwretch and PWraith shots!) Likwise, KD can be useful just to make sure an ensuing charge will land. Just watch out for the Cent's shield- when KD everything is in his front arc ;-)

@ keezus (mostly)

Necrotechs: Absolutely spot on. However as I said they're dirt cheap at 9 points each (and FA 3). I would also add that if you're playing (most) Cryx casters and Eiryss isn't dead by turn 2 (she is Arc node priority target number 1) you're doing somewthing wrong, Bile thralls love her too. It's probably worth sacrificing a Necrotech just to lure her in. The same applies to the GMCA. Not much you can do about the cannon except run away, as necrotechs are faster than Darius I'll take my chances.

Knockdown: Again a valid point, I was thinking more in relation to how I played against him. Goreshades 'the claiming' and Heavy warjacks low Def makes this spell not so much a joke as a liability. Other casters (Menites mostly) can pull similar tricks.

Bane Knights Vs.Prime: What Jmurph said about mines covers it really. It depends where the mine is I may take my chances, it depends on what I can kill first.

I've got a fun one for you.  There's this one guy using this list almost exclusively in the Winter league.  It is disgusting, especially considering the number of available forests.

Old Witch of Khador
Scrappy
MOW Drakhun (Protects the Old Witch)

Advance Deploy Hell:
- Widowmakers
- Kell Bailoch
- Alten Ashley
- Eyriss
AD Ogryn Bokur on Eyriss
- Doom Reavers
- Manhunter
AD Ogryn Bokur on the Manhunter

So, this is the way it works:  Your army gets stuck in the old witch's feat usually on turn 1 (or turn 2 if Khador didn't get the first turn and wants to maneuver a bit...) and eats 16 unanswered sniper shots - or POW14s off field of talons with those pesky CRA units and regular shooty units eating the first 8 shots...  Since your army was pinned in place, it eats Bokur(s), Drakhun, Manhunter + Doomreaver charge on the next turn. 

Good lord it is ugly.  And very hard to deal with in the forest rich environment of the league...

Only faces the Old Witch once, with my Circle on a heavily forested board. It was mostly my fault -being stupid with fury management .

So bearing in mind that I have little (actual) experience here I would recommend Taking Coven and counter feating (can't shoot/charge what you can't see) and casting Imprison or Deneghra and counter feating (stops charges but you'll have to take the sniper fire on the chin) and a nice cheap infantry screen, probably Bile thralls. You could use what few place effects (Tartarus) to move Banes out of trouble (or into it). After that hit those Key Solos Eiryss/Manhunter with Biles/Arc-nodes. If you're playing Denny Crippling Grasp (upkept) will keep the Drakkun off your back and any caster hoarding focus should be able to move (relatively) unhindered under Old Wiches feat.

Circle, specifically Baldur should also counter feat and make good use of that 'instant wood' spell to block LOS to snipers. Kaya can use Spirit door to relocate a key Warbeast to a safer spot, I've never used Kruger.

George:  All your advice is well and good if you get a chance to react.  I take it you've never eaten the Old Witch's feat on turn 1 before you get a chance to move.  Bonejacks only have 20 damage boxes.  An average roll from Field of Talons will kill 1/3 of a bonejack and may knock out its arc node on a lucky roll.

In a no terrain scenario - If Khador wins the die roll to go first - 10" deploy + 8" charge + Murder of Crows for a 14" unseen path + 14" feat.  Yesserie.  That's a total of 46" of catapulting scrapjack forwards for a first turn feat. - Usually, this means pretty much your entire deploy is not moving on your first turn.  (Don't forget that her feat - moves with Scrappy, and Scrappy can still move after being placed up close and personal)...

AD snipers can easily shoot into your deployment zone with average:  22" deploy + 6" move + 14" shoot = PWN.  (unless you'd like to squish everything back into your last 6" of deployment space).

Spreading out your forces = complete annihilation of 1/2 your army, since the AD hell deploys after your normal deploy.

There are ways of beating this army.  I used the high reclaimer to decent effect, since if you get to go first, you can pop out some smoke near your army (within melee range - REACH of your own guys) to block LOS from his shooters / AD beat-down guys).  If he teleports scrappy into any of those, you can almost guarantee that Scrappy will DIE.  Once Scrappy is dead, he's playing on your terms.  Though, on a turn where Khador goes first, there's going to be a lot of souls heading to Urcaen.

Dug In Trenchers might not die to the sniperspam due to the extra 4 DEF since they'll be moving on that first turn.

Having Jacks helps too, since they aren't overly concerned about sniperspam -Darius can mess 'em up good with Centurions - and Karchev can mess 'em up good with Iron Curtain on Kodiaks.

Finally - Terrain placement means the world against this army.  Though the league scenarios meant that anyone fighting this list had an uphill battle due to the damnable number of places Old Witch and Scrappy could unseen path to...

How is Scrappy in your face a problem if you are playing coven? if it's within 8" of any of your arc nodes (probably 4+) or within 14" of the Coven 3 Stygian abyss (ave 24 damage vs Arm 16 + chance of Crit blindness x3) will end Scrappy. if they feat at the end of that turn then enemy charges are very unlikely, even from the AD stuff. at best you will lose your cheap infantry screen (Bile thralls are 41 points per unit) and maybe a bonejack or two.

Denny can stop the charges stone dead with her feat and may even manage a counter charge (12" threat range with arm 21). She has nothing to fear from snipers and is almost totally immune to melee counter attacks on her feat turn.

Either way such a forward placed scrappy will probably end up as scrap metal. HellJacks would be no help to a Cryx force. with the poissible exception of the Leviathan/Harrower.

Posted By George Spiggott on 04/18/2007 10:41 AM
How is Scrappy in your face a problem if you are playing coven? if it's within 8" of any of your arc nodes (probably 4+) or within 14" of the Coven 3 Stygian abyss (ave 24 damage vs Arm 16 + chance of Crit blindness x3) will end Scrappy. if they feat at the end of that turn then enemy charges are very unlikely, even from the AD stuff. at best you will lose your cheap infantry screen (Bile thralls are 41 points per unit) and maybe a bonejack or two.

Denny can stop the charges stone dead with her feat and may even manage a counter charge (12" threat range with arm 21). She has nothing to fear from snipers and is almost totally immune to melee counter attacks on her feat turn.

Either way such a forward placed scrappy will probably end up as scrap metal. HellJacks would be no help to a Cryx force. with the poissible exception of the Leviathan/Harrower.

I think you might need to play a few more games vs. the Old Witch...  I personally own over 2000 points of Cryx and am well versed in how to run them...  even so, I do not think the solution is as easy as you make it.

1.  Scrappy and the old woman have stealth while they're in a cloud effect or forest.  You can only unseen path him into cloud effects or forest.  If your arcnodes are run-blocked from getting within 5" by models with REACH... there will be no shooting of scrappy.

I do not think that bonejacks can survive a POW14+2D6 + a MAT8 POW13+4D6 as average rolls will inflict the 20 points to obliterate it.

2.  Old witch's feat prevents runs, charges, special and power attacks while in her control area... so the bonejack run will have to start outside her feat range.

3.  Old witch and scrappy ignore stealth, clouds, forests and invisibility.

Yeah old witch was a pretty brutal caster in winter league.

Off the top of my head I'd just go around it with my Vengers. Ignore the 5000 solos and just kill the witch.

1. I forgot about stealth, Stealth only reduces my quoted ranges by 3" though and if he's more than 5" away from my bone jacks then he won't be charging them under Denny or the Covens counter feat.

I don't think they'll survive those Pow 14's either which is precisely why I wouldn't move them I'd move my caster(s) up as on full focus they'll laugh it off.

2. Only the Deneghra counter charge would be affected by the Old Witch's feat everything else will sit tight (not that it has much choice). Still has a 9" threat range

3: So what? There's no Destroyer or Behemoth in this list and the old witch is no 'Arc-node' assassin.

Of course it's not easy. My 'solution' involves both casters using their feats defensively and not dying for a turn. I?m not that bothered about scrappy if I can?t blast him with spells or move my jacks there?s nothing to spend my focus on. It's the 2 Bokur, Eiryss, Manhunter and Drakkun second wave I'm more concerned about.

Of course I'm preaching to the converted, you own 2,000 points of Cryx and are well versed with them. What do you suggest?

George:  Take this with a large grain of salt, since I haven't played my Cryx in a good three months...  but here goes:

The big thing here is you are pretty much going to eat the Old Witch's feat - no bones about it.  There's nothing you can do to prevent it.  The secret is to have it happen on your terms so that you can do some damage control.  So let's run down on options that work well against the AD hell army.

Caster Choice: 

Denghra is good because her stealth means she won't be disrupted.  Skarre is good becaue even if she IS disrupted, she can still get focus from her Skarlock and sacrificial lamb.

Coven - Don't be misled by the fact that they have a gigatic control area, strong spells or can gain stealth.  They are super squishy, and all it takes is for one thing to get through and wail on that slow moving Egregore, and it is good night.  With the amount of sniper firepower, clearing a path is not difficult.

Asphyxious / Goreshade:  The medium base means that they're prone to disruption.  Don't take the chance.

Unit Choice:

Almost all thralls are good choices:

Bane Thralls:  Since they can't be shot by sniper-hell and hit really hard.
Bile Thralls:  For purging if they live.  Like you said, if they don't, they've worked out well as a meat shield - Deneghra's death rage works well here.
Mechanithralls:  For meat shield purposes
Soulhunters:  For those situations where YOU get to go first, you can pin his shooters in melee... (or kill up some Doom Reavers... the choice is yours!)
Tartarus is a good source of movement.
Bloaties might be good choices if set to one side, away from your army.

I believe the helldiver's burrow ignores Field of Talons, so that's also a choice...

Anyhow, I know this isn't much of a tactica, but this is a matchup I haven't given much thought on.

I think the coven have a better chance than you think. There is no reason for them to move off their starting positions and with a Scarlock they can gain stealth (for the closest member) and Perfect conjunction. Once the Old witch's feat's worn off it's back to the Cryx shooting gallery for them, Pistol wraiths and Bile thralls.


Goreshade can be totally immune to disruption, all he has to do is cast Cloak of shadows. He can do that and boost a Bleed at Eiryss on the same turn, if he does it after he moves, he can do it on the Old Witch's feat turn if Eiryss is close enough (14" away) .

Correct about Asphixious, although you can add Terminus to the disruption proof list, at least long enough to kill Eiryss.

Yes the Helldiver will ignore Field of talons if he dives, as it's his action to do so.